|
| Thread: So. You guys still think Trump is no problem? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 · «PREV / NEXT» |
|
Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
|
posted April 16, 2025 05:37 PM |
|
|
Personally I don't think fascism exist today, if we ignore infinitesimal groups here and there, but not at a political structural level. The last political fascist movement was in Ukraine, lead by Andriy Biletsky, not so long ago, and it did exactly what a fascist does, talk about white race purity and the danger of the jew cancer.
I use it only to respond to JJ, is his common ground when he doesn't like someone.
|
|
blizzard
Known Hero
Urban Legend
|
|
posted April 16, 2025 05:43 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Fascism (/ˈfæʃɪzəm/ FASH-iz-əm) is a far-right, authoritarian, and ultranationalist political ideology and movement,[1][2][3] characterized by a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, belief in a natural social hierarchy, subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation or race, and strong regimentation of society and the economy. Opposed to Marxism, democracy, anarchism, pluralism, free markets, egalitarianism, communism, liberalism, and socialism,[4][5] fascism is at the far right of the traditional left–right spectrum.[6][5][7]
This is Wikipedia's opening paragraph on fascism. Pretty good, I think.
It is not coincidental that it took off in Germany and Japan, because the cultures met the prerequisites for the system to work and be effective, especially the part about subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation or race. America had a very clear social hierarchy based on race, but it doesn't fit well with some of the other stuff. It doesn't really have homogeneity at all.
Even the American South (not defending the Confederacy) would have made a terrible and ineffective fascist regime that would probably have just fallen apart on itself. It would probably have resulted in mass rebellion and state officials backstabbing other state officials.
This is what people in central Europe do not understand about America and American culture. When they read about Trump on the news, they think America is just like they are, and that Trump actually has the ability to turn America into a fascist regime. He doesn't, not just because of the rule of law, but because America is not a nation in the same way that Germany is a nation. Not really.
____________
|
|
Rimgrabber
Promising
Famous Hero
Voice in Gelu's Head
|
|
posted April 16, 2025 05:52 PM |
|
|
I am an American. We are not a nation in the same way that European countries are, but we don't have to be because while fascism has clear defining characteristics, it also changes to meet the conditions of where it is taking hold. Unless you are going to argue that American Nationalism is not a real thing, the argument that you're trying to make doesn't make very much sense to me. America's Cold War culture is very, very fascistic at its core, and now that the neoliberal order is collapsing in on itself those fascistic characterisitcs are going become more prominent. You're right that the confederacy would have collapsed in on itself, as fascism inevitably does under its own contradictions, but the confederacy also wasn't really fascist because it predated the conditions that were necessary for fascism to exist. It probably would have become fascist as slavery became a failed economic model and the platation owners destroyed their political institutions to protect their power, but it was its own distinct sort of apartheid republic.
And I would vvery strongly disagree that there are no organized fascist movements. They might not explicitly call themselves such, but that is what these "right wing populist" movements are. Trumpism, Reform UK, the AfD, etc. all have very strong, clear parallels to fascist movements in 20th century Europe. There are differences, just like there are differences between different flavors of liberalism and socialism, but they are still meeting the defining characteristics of fascism.
____________
|
|
blizzard
Known Hero
Urban Legend
|
|
posted April 16, 2025 06:20 PM |
|
Edited by blizzard at 19:01, 16 Apr 2025.
|
AfD is way too libertarian and unregulated. They give a middle finger to the green movement because of all the regulations it involves.
Cold War America is also way too libertarian.
A lot of populism is about people goofing off and rejecting regulations and institutions. They think the EU is preachy and annoying with way too many rules. And that is why populism is a very serious concern and fascism is not, because we cannot afford to goof off and be unregulated while the atmosphere continues to be altered and cook the planet. Those days are over.
But when you say that stuff, it makes you sound like a killjoy. You are spoiling the consumerism and the "freedom" and such. That is what makes regulations and rules difficult to sell. That is why AfD has gained a lot of ground.
When people say "America first" or "England first" what they actually mean is "me first". They're not actually talking about subordinating individual desires for the nation and the state, let alone fighting and possibly dying for it. Getting Trump to use the military is hard because he is always complaining about the money.
In general, I guess I agree with Sal that it is very hard for fascism to exist today with the internet and pop culture and such. Japan I guess is theoretically insulated enough to recreate a fascist regime, if it just ditched its own constitution, but it doesn't have the desire or the youthfulness.
I think it is mostly a catch-all word that people use when they are mad about something a politican is doing.
|
|
Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
|
|
posted April 16, 2025 06:38 PM |
|
|
Rimgrabber said:
And I would very strongly disagree that there are no organized fascist movements. They might not explicitly call themselves such, but that is what these "right wing populist" movements are.
Why I am not surprised 
|
|
Rimgrabber
Promising
Famous Hero
Voice in Gelu's Head
|
|
posted April 16, 2025 07:05 PM |
|
|
I don't know how you can compare the 14 characteristics of fascism to these movements and then say with a straight face they aren't fascistic. Especially when you have them actively using fascist dog whistles.
____________
|
|
Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
|
|
posted April 16, 2025 08:46 PM |
|
|
The flaw in Umberto Eco "definitions of fascism" is interpretation created by political bias, leading to Reductio ad Hitlerum shortcut, while conveniently evacuating all nuances. And there are tons of them.
When he says that cult of tradition is a sign of fascism, one can retort tradition and culture, what makes the history of a nation is a solid pedestal on which progress should implement its experiments. And if they don't stick or provoke huge discontent, they don't fit. Family and cultural homogeneity are the roots of a successfully surviving community, for example.
When he says "rejection of modernity" is a sign of fascism, one could retort that modernity for the sake of change, without looking afar and see the results of such experiments on the previous homogeneity could become a cult in itself, therefore fascism. When he says "fear of difference" is fascism, one could retort that the ones who cancel and try to ban any difference within the market of ideas is the left. Therefore the left is fascist.
And so on. You just choose to interpret a philosophical essay into a set of binding rules - a dictionary, because that way you don't have to question the validity of your proposals, why would you, the others are on the dark side anyway, so they are always wrong.
To summarize, vulgarly, the left wants to reorganize everything. The right is asking "why, show the benefits first". For you this is enough to assert they don't want to change and stick to old precepts, which is untrue. Nobody wants to live forever in stone age, is just that the new branches have to stick to an healthy existing tree, not some thin air utopian ideology, so you can look righteous to friends and chicks.
____________
Era II mods and utilities
|
|
Rimgrabber
Promising
Famous Hero
Voice in Gelu's Head
|
|
posted April 16, 2025 10:17 PM |
|
|
Salamandre said:
And so on. You just choose to interpret a philosophical essay into a set of binding rules - a dictionary, because that way you don't have to question the validity of your proposals, why would you, the others are on the dark side anyway, so they are always wrong.
To summarize, vulgarly, the left wants to reorganize everything. The right is asking "why, show the benefits first". For you this is enough to assert they don't want to change and stick to old precepts, which is untrue. Nobody wants to live forever in stone age, is just that the new branches have to stick to an healthy existing tree, not some thin air utopian ideology, so you can look righteous to friends and chicks.
I wish I knew how to say this in a less inflammatory way, but this whole post reads suspiciously like your entire political worldview is based on watching Ben Shapiro and other similar influencers and you haven't bothered to familiarize yourself with any sort of political theory or party platforms.
I'm not treating the 14 characteristics as gospel. I'm using them as a reference point because they are pretty widely accepted. If indeed you are only asking to "see the benefits first" people have written entire books explaining this stuff and there are countless studies that have been done on countless policies to show their pros and cons. You're not gonna get the in depth answers you want on a video game forum.
Who are you talking about when you refer to the left and the right? Social Democrats and conservatives? Communists and fascists? Liberals, libertarians, some other thing? The "left" and the "right" are both soluch giant blanket terms that to use them in such an oversimplified way as you are renders them completely meaningless.
____________
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted April 16, 2025 10:53 PM |
|
|
|
The answer to be expected.
|
|
Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
|
|
posted April 16, 2025 11:39 PM |
|
|
That doesn't make any sense. How about giving some specific examples of fascism, today, so I can debunk them easily, instead of endless reechoing about some non-existent argument from authority. The definitions from Umberto Eco can be applied by cherry-picking to every form of government, everywhere, now, yesterday or in the future. When I hear such, I am not surprised the majority of Americans voted for Trump, they surely had enough of this BS.
Rimgrabber said:
The "left" and the "right" are both soluch giant blanket terms that to use them in such an oversimplified way as you are renders them completely meaningless.
Says the one who labeled the right wing as fascists.
____________
Era II mods and utilities
|
|
blizzard
Known Hero
Urban Legend
|
|
posted April 17, 2025 12:29 AM |
|
Edited by blizzard at 01:14, 17 Apr 2025.
|
What I am told is common in Germany is that you are expected to prove a negative (which of course, is a logical fallacy, because you can't prove negatives).
So, you say something vaguely not in line or vaguely socially unacceptable, and a person asks you about fascism and authoritarianism and such. If you say yes, you're guilty and you need to change. If you say no, it means you're in denial and you're guilty and you need to change. So, either way, you're a fascist.
AfD is regularly accused of fascism when really it is more-or-less a populist party with some libertarian leanings and a lot of anger towards the green movement because they think it has been killing the economy. It's not a healthy party or a good sign for Europe's future, but it's not what people accuse it of being. It would be very, very difficult for Germany to experience some kind of neo-fascist resurgence in the age of the internet because people are being pulled in every which direction, getting zombified from phones, and in general, have little to no interest in being a sacrificial soldier ant for the state. And it would be even harder in America because America has less national cohesion than Germany does along with every other European country.
____________
|
|
Rimgrabber
Promising
Famous Hero
Voice in Gelu's Head
|
|
posted April 17, 2025 01:40 AM |
|
|
Salamandre said:
Says the one who labeled the right wing as fascists.
No, I labeled the alt-right "right wing populist" movements as fascist because they are. There are a whole host of major right wing parties which are not fascist.
The CDU, British and Canadian Conservatives, Reagan Republicans, most of the Democratic Party, Australian Liberals etc are all right wing parties which are not fascist, even though I think their policies are largely harmful to people and the environment.
____________
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted April 17, 2025 10:39 AM |
|
|
Blizzard, ylou are so clueless about Germany.
Maybe you watch the wrong media.
In any case, I'm pretty positive that the svastika is held dearly by certain American groups, say the KKK.
There is a strong racist pulse beating in the US, and if you look at fascism in Italy and in Germany (and in the white supremacist movements in the US), they all have one thing in common: a sense of ENTITLEMENT. The fascists in Italy felt done over, not getting in full after WW I what had been promised to them. Same in Germany, combined with racial entitlement.
Today, the entitlement is still there. The whole anti-woke nonsense is permeated by a sense of entitlement - not to put up with that BS any longer.
And social media is EXACTLY what the pissed-off self-entitled average uncertain dumb-ass needed to FINALLY vent off steam and tell everyone how they feel. About the foreigners and migrants, about women, especially FEMINIST women, Jews, blacks, muslims, pakis, you name it.
Now, the internet isn't different from real life. If in real life a group of idiots is ganging up on a woman, telling her all the nice things you can sometimes read when posts are made public, that woman can press charges. When the same happens in the internet - same rules apply. You cannot insult and threaten via the internet feeling yourself secure due to anonymity. That has got nothing to do with freedom of opinion. You can't also go ahead and ruin people's life by spreading lies about them via the internet.
And so on and so forth.
I really don't want to go deeper into all this - it's either obvious or you just have to dig a bit deeper to really get it.
But I can tell you how fascism starts: by suppressing the truth and spreading fabrications. And by bullying institutions, media and perceived threats. Oh, and of course by corruption - let's not forget that the highest-ups will also fill their coffers and that seems to already have happened once with a biiiiig payday. Trump has already delivered once.
|
|
artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
|
|
posted April 17, 2025 12:47 PM |
|
Edited by artu at 16:58, 17 Apr 2025.
|
Is the definition of facism given too vague, ambiguous? No, it’s actually pretty specific, maybe even too specific. Not all facist movements have a dictator on top of the food chain for instance, some have military juntas. And not all of them are even “in power” so they cant be oppressive even if they are in favor of it. Of course, depending on the context, the term can apply to a very specific form of political movement, sometimes even only the historical original. Under such technical context not even Nazism is the same as facism. But I guess, we can all agree that for quite some time, the term has a much broader area of coverage.
On the other hand, is the term facist overused? Yes, it certainly is. You know how, in economy, if you print too much money it causes inflation and money loses value, the same applies to language, if you call too many people facist, racist etc, these words lose their weight. Calling someone a racist or a facist used to hold some water, it used to actually deflame them. Now all the reaction they get is things like “yeah, of course you’re gonna say that” or even worse, “well, I dont care if I am.”
Is the American alt-right facist, if you're considering people marching with swastikas alt-right, then they certainly are. But I consider those traditionally far-right. Is Ben Shapiro a facist? I would call him alt-right and a demagouge at times but not a facist, no. Because he is not in favor of a totalitarian, or even an authoritarian state. Simple as that. Is Trump a facist? He’s not acting as if he respects the institutional separation of powers. But then, not that I support Trump a bit, there are American political scientists who claim that those institutions themselves dont work as they were intented to for a long time and they have become an oppressive machine for clogging true opposition themselves. Maybe not on a “totalitarian facist state” level but there is certainly a serious amount of corruption and the ontological crisis of democracies today are: a) the bureacratic instruments of modern government has become too big, too sophisticated, there are too many loopholes for the people in power to exploit. They got better and better at working the system, controling the medias without actually banning them, and people are overwhelmed by the enormous amount disinformation anyway. They simply dont care and believe what they want to believe, they pick a side and stick to it. Post-truth made the process of democratic choice look meaningless.
Still, living in Erdogan’s Turkey, a lot of the stuff you call facism just makes me giggle. The de facto leader of the political opposition, mayor of Istanbul is in jail here, students who protest that are also in jail, reporters who reported that the charges were nothing solid also got arrested, and “a psychic” who tweeted that a big political leader is going to die also got arrested and was put in house arrest. It’s almost like a black comedy.
____________
Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted April 17, 2025 02:30 PM |
|
|
|
Is that a post directed to me, artu?
|
|
Rimgrabber
Promising
Famous Hero
Voice in Gelu's Head
|
|
posted April 17, 2025 03:30 PM |
|
|
Personally I would consider Ben Shapiro to be more of a neoconservative in the way of Dick Cheney than an actual fascist. Authoritarian, detached from reality, but not truly fascist.
You're probably right that the term fascist is overused. Personally I try to be careful with how I use it, and there are only 3 contexts in which I use it: policies that I believe are in line with fascism, institutions I believe are trending towards being fascist, and individuals who I believe are supportive of fascism.
The United States is definitely not as far along the fascist pipeline as Turkey or Russia are, for example, but we have been slowly trending in that way for a very long time and Trump's second administration has unquestionably accelerated this in a dramatic fashion. He is refusing court orders to bring home a man who was wrongfully deported to an El Salvador prison and talking about how he want to deport "home grown" criminals next. I have been to protests where nonviolent activists have been beaten and kidnapped by the police and that was before we had a president enthusiastically endorsing such behavior. I don't think it is unreasonable to call this fascism when it is blended with the merging of corporate and state power, disdain for intellectuals, and militaristic jingoism.
____________
|
|
Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
|
|
posted April 17, 2025 04:46 PM |
|
|
Oh, so now sending back illegal sneaking criminals (identified as gang member by a gang member, on the wanted list of another Salvador gang too), as the immigration laws say, is being a fascist.
And we are being told that we are the ones detached from reality 
By the way, the illegals deportation record is still Obama, 5,3 million people. The black fascist ?
|
|
artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
|
|
posted April 17, 2025 04:51 PM |
|
Edited by artu at 16:57, 17 Apr 2025.
|
JollyJoker said:
Is that a post directed to me, artu?
Not significantly, no. I do think you sometimes exxagerate but I havent seen you calling everybody with an opposing idea facist or anything like that.
I guess we are too old to be that woke! 
@Rimgrabber
Well, about guys like Shapiro, it also has a lot to do with how they are approached. I recently watched an interview of Alex O’Connor (who previously kind of roasted Shapiro about a video of his on atheism), who said “it’s also about the way you treat people, when I treated Shapiro like a decent person, he was not that bad” and so on. So, I found that debate and O’Connor was right, he wasnt that bad. Of course, I dont follow Shapiro on a daily basis and I am not as informed about his stance about domestic political matters as much as an American, but he seems like someone open to opposing ideas about more general matters here:
Link
____________
Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
|
|
Rimgrabber
Promising
Famous Hero
Voice in Gelu's Head
|
|
posted April 17, 2025 04:57 PM |
|
|
Salamandre said:
Oh, so now sending back illegal sneaking criminals (identified as gang member by a gang member, on the wanted list of another Salvador gang too), as the immigration laws say, is being a fascist.
And we are being told that we are the ones detached from reality
By the way, the illegals deportation record is still Obama, 5,3 million people. The black fascist ?
I did say that Obama continued and expanded the slowly increasing fascist trends even though I don't think he was a fascist himself. And if the law says that the guy sent to El Salvador is a criminal, someone should tell Pam Bondi who has now multiple times said that he is not accused of breaking any laws.
@artu I would agree that for a lot of people it depends on how they're approached but I don't think that applies to people like Shapiro whose whole job is to be a propagandist. He's never going to engage in a truly good faith discussion or be open to changing his mind on anything because his entire career is built up on not doing that.
____________
|
|
Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
|
|
posted April 17, 2025 05:06 PM |
|
|
Why do we talk about Shapiro, lol ? Ah, I was accused of speaking like Shapiro, which the last time I listened was 9 years ago, when he criticized Trump, a lot. The irony.
Dude, I don't care what his lawyer says, it is his job to say good things, I care about what the administration found by studying his dossier. He beat his wife, she had a restrained order against him, he sneaked illegally into the USA, he was recognized as a gang member and even more, another gang from El Salvador wanted him dead. Stop making things, you are the one in total denial, that's what you get when watching CNN cartoons. Trump is doing what he promised he will do, he was elected for that, and if you don't like, think at a better strategy for next election instead of name calling.
|
| |
|
|
