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| Thread: The Second Woman |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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Lady_Milena
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Grannie Sweet Cheeks
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posted October 27, 2003 10:22 AM |
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The Second Woman
Okay, I -do- know we've had enough Bible controversy here of late but since it's me, Milena, I'll go on pouring fuel in the fire.
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On of the most controversial and hush-hush moments in the Bible is the issue of the second woman. I'll refresh your memory with a short summary of Genesis.
So, the Lord created the universe, the earth, Adam and Eve in 6 days, on the seventh He rested.
Just because it's essential here, I'll elaborate on the issue of Adam and Eve. God created Adam, the first man, then, because he needed a mate to submit to him, made Eve out of his rib. Right?
That's what the Bible says.
Now, what it says next, is that they were the first two people and no other people there on Earth. Still following?
We do know of two sons of Adam and Eve. Caine and Abel. What happened with them? We all know. Caine slew Abel. But also, in the Bible it is said "Caine knew his wife...." (Thunder, I count on you to find me the exact quote and reference but it IS there). Very well! Caine knew his wife and he begat progeny and from his progeny and his sin we all come.
Right?
But then I'm asking you, WHO was the second woman? Who was Caine's wife?
God created the man and the woman to pair and have progeny, correct? That's how children are created. And it -is- said that Caine had a wife. But hey. Where did she come from?!
In the Bible only one woman is mentioned before. Eve. His mother. And, let me stress again, it is said that Adam and Eve were the ONLY people created and we are their progeny.
You following so far?
So, what does this leave? It's a small community. Adam, Eve and their children. Abel. Caine. So far we know of. And yet, Caine had a wife who gave him children. WHO was she?
There are a few thoughts that can stem from here.
1. Caine's wife was another woman, not mentioned in the Bible, separate from the First people. What does it mean? That deep DOWN, there was someone created AS WELL, someone who does NOT bear the original sin, who married Caine and begat HER progeny with him. Can you understand what this means??
2. Caine's wife was one of his sisters. No sisters are mentioned but hey, not mentioned doesn't mean non-existent. But what does THIS mean? That Caine, having had sex and children with a sister.... has committed incest. And, IIRC, that's one of the greatest sins for a Christian, worse than homosexuality....
3. Another theory... The apocryphs suggest there HAS been another woman created. Before Eve. The Dark mother. Lilith.
Her mere existence is more than a taboo topic for Christian theologists. It will mean 1. Eve is NOT the first woman. Thus, the Bible is lying. 2. She has survived after God decided she was not worthy for Adam. Or maybe -she- decided he was not worthy for her? That means: 1. God has pardoned her all the same and not destoyed her in his retribution for being unworthy. 2. God was uncapable of destroying Lilith.
Interesting, oh, interesting, don't you think?
Looking at the three theories, which do you think is the most possible? (cause I couldn't make up another). And which one, the least horrible - from the Christians' point of view and a human's? The chance of progeny not conceived with the original sin, incest or Lilith?
And yet, it shall always remain a mystery... who was the Second woman.
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IYY
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REDACTED
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posted October 27, 2003 02:05 PM |
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Hmm... Weird that I never thought about this before. I'd like to believe #1 but #2 sounds more like what would really happen. Although that would cause some serious mutations in human beings as a race.
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bort
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posted October 27, 2003 02:52 PM |
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Or --
#4 The Bible isn't true to begin with (or isn't literaly true, or is a metaphor or whatever), so any inconsistencies are sort of a moot point.
If not, probably #2. Cain wasn't exactly a saint. If he also commited incest, big whoopty snowing doo. I mean, what's it going to be at the pearly gates? "Well, you killed your brother, but we can let that slide, go on in and... wait a minute! Sex with your sister? Get the hell (heh heh, little pun I made up while guarding the gates) out of here!"
Plus, if we're talking incest, if Eve was made from Adam's rib, then wasn't she essentially his clone (with a few hormones here or there to give her the appropriate anatomy)? So is that incest or masturbation, either of which is sorta frowned upon?
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Drive by posting.
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Celfious
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From earth
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posted October 28, 2003 07:11 PM |
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Languages are diverse. They came from isolated parts of the world.
You would think if there was a starting center (adam and eve, or after noah) that even if ppl moved, there would be BIG SIMILarities in the langaue.
Another question here..
Who are decendants of blood lines so important as Jesus (ect other names)? You would think, that everyone born from mary would be told "Jesus is sort of a family member "
So like, even today.. everyone a decendant should know important ppl in their liniage.
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Shadowcaster
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posted October 29, 2003 11:22 PM |
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Quote:
Languages are diverse. They came from isolated parts of the world.
You would think if there was a starting center (adam and eve, or after noah) that even if ppl moved, there would be BIG SIMILarities in the langaue.
Actually, the languages would have been the same, with various dialects, but the presence of many different languages is explained in the story of the Tower of Babel. The story goes that some people wanted to build a tower so high that it would reach up to Heaven, and had great pride in their own abilities to do so. So God came and caused them all to speak different languages so that the tower could not be finished. They probably moved to different areas afterward. This is also likely where the notion of countries (or at least tribes) began.
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>_>
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Wolfman
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posted October 31, 2003 03:29 AM |
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#5 Eve was Caine's wife...hmmm...
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Valeriy
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Naughty, Naughty Valeriy
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posted November 06, 2003 05:12 AM |
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Funny it seems so obvious now but I've never thought of that... Maybe she was an alien being?
And I think that bible is more symbolic than actual fact, and also that satan/devil was not in the bible originally, but only after an editing aimed to have people act a certain way out of fear.
I think when Jesus said "I am the truth, the way and the light" (or similar wording), he meant "each one is the truth, the way and the light for himself", as in listen to your heart to show you the way, do not take what others say for truth. But everyone took it as Jesus, the man, is the way, which seems close to saying that truth and the way is external. Oh, better not get me started.
The most obvious one though:
1) God is all powerful.
2) God is all good.
3) God is all knowing.
Right?
How can devil exist given three of the above are true?
Or another one.
God is unconditional love right?
But if you do something you are not supposed to, in the afterlife he will make you suffer? He still loves them, but man, loving eternal damnation?
Oh can't stop! Another one.
God is an all powerful creator, so he can and does create anything and anyone in any way that he likes. So he created man and gave him free will. If god is all powerful and all knowing, there is nothing that can happen without god's will. In giving a man free will god knew perfectly what would happen as he is all knowing. Then, an all powerful god happened to require a man to act a certain way, and he even did so through a verbal request. Then, the man did the wrong thing, and god punished him by eternal banishment from paradise. God wanted to test the man and punish him for the outcome that god already knew? What a sadist god! Setting up his creation for punishment from the start, and then rather than punishing man straight away, god blamed his creation as if it deserved its punishment through its own action! I wouldn't pray to that.
I don't think that god actually is like that, I think the bible in its edited version that we get today is, well, edited. With particular aims in mind.
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Marelt_Ekiran
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posted November 06, 2003 05:24 AM |
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I believe that I once heard that the first people were actually the result of incest. And since the first people were supposed to live somewhere in their 900's, it was possible to mate with many different generations, after a while.
I don't know what the bible says about incest, but in the ancient tribes, it was probably not that uncommon. And there is still a decent chance of getting a healthy child from two siblings.
As far as I know, Lilith was a demoness in the ancient Jewish mythology (the bible as we know it mostly grew out of that mythology). It was said that at a certain point, she bore a hundred children each day, and the earth was threatened to overwhelmed by her offspring. Therefore, jahwe send a number of angels, which killed most of her offspring. However, a number survived, as did Lilith herself. She took revenche on mankind and mostly targeted young mothers. This believe was in effect up to the Middle Ages.
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Perception is everything.
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chubby051
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posted November 06, 2003 05:41 AM |
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Who would have thought that Adam and Eve were from Kentucky?!?!?!?!?!?!?
The Second Woman = Abel's daughter? or does it say he didn't have kids? I don't know, not very religous.
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Shadowcaster
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posted November 06, 2003 05:55 AM |
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It's also possible that God may have simply impregnated the first few women, then after enough diversity was created, he then let humans mate amongst themselves.
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>_>
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privatehudson
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posted November 06, 2003 07:08 AM |
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Quote:
Quote:
Languages are diverse. They came from isolated parts of the world.
You would think if there was a starting center (adam and eve, or after noah) that even if ppl moved, there would be BIG SIMILarities in the langaue.
Actually, the languages would have been the same, with various dialects, but the presence of many different languages is explained in the story of the Tower of Babel. The story goes that some people wanted to build a tower so high that it would reach up to Heaven, and had great pride in their own abilities to do so. So God came and caused them all to speak different languages so that the tower could not be finished. They probably moved to different areas afterward. This is also likely where the notion of countries (or at least tribes) began.
But isn't the Tower story come from after the flood? How then are seperate tribes of people's dated as being from the Americas well before most creationists assume the flood occurred?
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We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
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Lews_Therin
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posted November 06, 2003 07:26 AM |
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And why did god hide all those fossils under layers of earth?
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Lord_Woock
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posted November 06, 2003 08:28 AM |
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Quote:
The most obvious one though:
1) God is all powerful.
2) God is all good.
3) God is all knowing.
Right?
How can devil exist given three of the above are true
If they actually exist, then I guess god wants the devil to be there as well. You need balance in the universe. If you have evil, you must have good, if you have good, there must be evil.
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Yolk and God bless.
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Lews_Therin
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posted November 06, 2003 11:57 AM |
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Quote:
If they actually exist, then I guess god wants the devil to be there as well. You need balance in the universe. If you have evil, you must have good, if you have good, there must be evil.
One problem with almightyness is, that it logically leads to an all-powerlessness (determinism) of any other being or creature. Which logically leads to the end of all moral and responsibility, because god is responsible for everything!
As this implies that god is responsible for every evil deed in the world, we can conclude that god is the most evil being in the universe  .
Which leads to the conclusion that the idea of a Christian god contradicts itself. Which, as a thing that contradicts itself logically cannot exist, leads to the conclusion that the Christian god does not exist. Have I missed something?
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Aquaman333
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of the seven seas
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posted November 07, 2003 03:31 AM |
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The Bible isn't meant to be taken literally. Adam and Eve represent the first AGE of man. Cain and Abel represent the second age where humans began acquiring jealousy, hatred, anger, and the like. So if you look at it in that light, there were probably countless women for our friend Abel to choose from.
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"OOOOOOO!"."
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Celfious
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From earth
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posted November 07, 2003 03:49 AM |
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I think in a way the bible is an idol but it connects alot of people to God.
Although, I cant even try to deny existance of a god.
Has anyone thought about the Pentegram? Isreals flag..
It's not very confusing to me anymore but I've found it as the meaning of existince. 6 corners. 3 on one side, 3 on the other. But each corner represents 1 group. (members of each group are usualy close together in the planet)
And even though they are allied with others, and against others.. The only thing that can bring world peace, is if all 6 groups in the world come together. But the end, is when there is complete war.
(I visualized it all coming together the symbol turned into shiney gold and it seemed nothing like war at all.)
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Shadowcaster
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posted November 07, 2003 05:02 AM |
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The Israeli flag has a star of David on it, not a pentagram...
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Svarog
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statue-loving necrophiliac
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posted April 09, 2004 08:53 PM |
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Revived!
Quote:
3. Another theory... The apocryphs suggest there HAS been another woman created. Before Eve. The Dark mother. Lilith.
Her mere existence is more than a taboo topic for Christian theologists. It will mean 1. Eve is NOT the first woman. Thus, the Bible is lying. 2. She has survived after God decided she was not worthy for Adam. Or maybe -she- decided he was not worthy for her? That means: 1. God has pardoned her all the same and not destoyed her in his retribution for being unworthy. 2. God was uncapable of destroying Lilith.
Interesting, oh, interesting, don't you think?
Extremely! I never thought I’d see Lilith mentioned in here. She’s my goddess, so you now know why I revived.
Lilith (The Black Moon) could have been the first woman. She was created out of earth, just like Adam. She was very sexy, seductive, passionate, aggressive and immoral. A true male counterpart and equal. Actually God created her after Adam, but notably with equal status as he. But they started to argue and Lilith escaped. She had a demon inside her. In fact it was her independence and the unwillingness to belong to Adam (or to the will of God) that were the “demonic” trait of her character. It was only later that other children-slaying and demonic attributes were added to her personality. (Some scholars say she was connected with other ancient demons. And hence, her succubian look.)
But back to the story: God sent angels to retrieve her and they threatened her to kill her demon-children (who was the father of these is unknown), if she didn’t come back. Needless to say, she refused. That’s why she supposedly swore to bring revenge on all of Adam’s offspring (and the reason she was feared in the Middle Ages).
Now, God again decided to create Adam a partner (probably he saw him masturbating couple of times ). But this time, she was created from Adam’s own body. Therefore they had no problem with submission, since she was a part of himself. And they lived happily ever after… until the apple, and you know the story from this point.
But why didn’t God destroy her? It’s possible that he didn’t want to. He probably knew she’d be the mother of mankind and had nothing against it. If he had, he wouldn’t have let it happen. It’s also possible that he was unable to destroy her. And that leads us to the same reason why the Devil exists. Or perhaps the Devil is the incarnation of Lilith. Who knows. (on a personal level, that leads me a lot closer to being a Satanist )
Now, the question Milena arises is: Is it possible Lilith to be our primal mother? Are we the offspring of a demon (at least by Christian standards)?
In my opinion, this is the truth. No wonder Christian theologists find this to be a taboo topic and avoid mentioning Lilith in the Bible or its interpretations. This is one too powerful myth to behold. It would be self-cancellation, since Lilith refuses to be “enslaved” by anything, unlike Eve, or Adam or us. But remember, genes are powerful stuff.
Are you aware what would it mean, if she had been the wife of Caine? What would it say about our nature? Is it possible we be both gods and demons?
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The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.
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Svarog
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posted April 16, 2004 03:13 AM |
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Eve, Adam-Kadmon, Adam and Lilith
Jean-Marie Bottequi, Munich 1993
***Lilith is on the far right.
There's much more in this Lilith myth than you read into it.
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The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.
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Shirastro
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Happy happy joy joy
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posted April 16, 2004 06:41 AM |
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OK beffore coming up with some more funny ideas, i'll just tell you that in "Genesis" and in its first chapter God created night, day, earth, animals, trees and HUMANS. It sais that he created them in one day (they were last one if i remember corectly) and it also use plural (more of them) so that they can populate the earth.
It was only in the second chapter that its writen that God created first Adam and Eve.
So basicky bible contradict it self.
This is a proof (for me) that bible is no holly book, but just a bunch of miths and legends puten together (sometimes in a clumsy way).
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And now to the next post.
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