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| Thread: Something about the TOH report honor system |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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Mathesis
Tavern Dweller
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posted November 01, 2003 03:59 AM |
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Something about the TOH report honor system
Personally, I think that the report honor system is unfair. Let me demonstrate this with something that happened to me some days ago.
I played a TOH player, a baron regarded as "honorable", which I wont name. He lost to me and after he lost we made some conversation, in which he told me something that he couldn`t know without using a bug or a cheat (he told me that I won only because I had The book of water). So I asked him how could he know that I had that and then he told me about some bug, a SOD bug (I don`t have SOD so I can`t try if it works), with which he could see what I had on my hero after taking the cartographer or after deshrouding my area. I told him that that was not only a bug, but also a way of cheating. After that he tried to prove (in a falacious way) that what he used was not a cheat, only a bug, and after our disagreement on the subject he left the game. Then I talked to someone that is very close to him, someone who`s known to be a honorable player, with whom I agreed on not reporting the guy to the HC under certain conditions (he took care of the matter, talking to the guy and explaining to him why he couldn`t use a bug that could in fact be treated as a cheat: case closed, the guy even apologized). Now, here is the problem: after we both reported the outcome of our game I found out that I had "avarage honor" (I was "honorable" before that), meaning, in his report the guy atributed me "bad honor".
Now, my point is this: when the loser reports "bad honor" to his opponent (the winner), he must be always treated as being unobjective, even if he`s a "honorable" player or even "very honorable". I`m not saying the loser is ALWAYS unobjective, I`m just saying that he must always be treated as such when he reports "bad honor" to his opponent (the winner). Why? Because his objectivity is temporarly lowered. But he must be treated as being unobjective ONLY when he reports "bad honor"; in fact, when the loser reports "good honor" to his opponent he must always be treated as being objective. Why? Because it means he fought his temporarly lowered unobjectivity and won against it. But what about the winner? It`s the opposite: when he reports "good honor" to his opponent (the loser) he must be always treated as being unobjective and when he reports "bad honor" he must be always treated as being objective.
So what am I suggesting? I think it would be wise to eliminate two options: the option of reporting "bad honor" from the losers report form and the option of reporting "good honor" from the winners report form, leaving two options in both cases (the loser could only report either "neutral" or "good" honor and the winner could only report either "neutral" or "bad" honor).
That`s my opoinion and I hope others agree with me, so maybe we can change something.
M.
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Wolfman
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Insomniac
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posted November 01, 2003 04:11 AM |
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That's nice, and I'm sorry that happened to you. But what if your opponent really did play Honorably but when you go to report his/her as such, that is not a choice. So you would only be able to raise your honor if you won. And that would mean my honor would only be able to lower ( I haven't won a game yet!  ). So no matter what the system is, not everyone would be happy. Good idea though.
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vesuvius
Hero of Order
Honor Above all Else
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posted November 01, 2003 05:25 AM |
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its called human nature mathesis, different attitudes with different people. There is nothing to solve, just play and enjoy the game, look at any longstanding addicts' record, they are all high honor.
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wanderer
Known Hero
Mercenary on Azure's Kingdom
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posted November 01, 2003 05:44 AM |
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Quote:
its called human nature mathesis, different attitudes with different people. There is nothing to solve, just play and enjoy the game, look at any longstanding addicts' record, they are all high honor.
on my oppinion both ves and mathesis are right
it is true tough mathesis that (maybe not all face it )we are feelin sad, some mad, some irritated, some frustrated , when we lose
and that is on 99% of cases why defeated reports " not honorable" to the winner of the game
also vesuvius is right, the addicts have great honor, are known as honorable players, so my advice for you mathesis would be : play youre games, donno how much experience ya have on the online multiplayer toh zone, but with the time, ya'll "have youre own TOPLAYWITH list" of players
we all do I guess. At least I do , and it's not wrong to reply to someone if he asks you to play a game : " sorry I can't, or I don't feel like playing now, sry"
and that's how you will avoid with the time this problem
tough sometimes, even very addicted players, report bad honor to the winner. why? because sometimes playing it doesnt came only to fun, but cames to a "race for points" and nobody is feelin great ( let's face it ) when he losses to a low ranked player
anyway , that's my sincere point of wiev even if not all share it with me
wan
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veni vidi vici
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valkyrica
Supreme Hero
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posted November 01, 2003 06:48 AM |
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hmm, wanderer must be the low ranked he's talking about 
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wanderer
Known Hero
Mercenary on Azure's Kingdom
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posted November 01, 2003 06:55 AM |
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Quote:
hmm, wanderer must be the low ranked he's talking about
rite 
how on the world ya figured that out so fast?
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veni vidi vici
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coaie
Known Hero
Dirty MoFo
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posted November 01, 2003 11:35 AM |
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Edited By: coaie on 1 Nov 2003
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My personal 2 cents.
I was thinking the same as Mathesis until a month ago when World Online Nation was launched.
I realised then that vey few players give bad honours when they lose without a reasonable motive in the comment box, usually pointmongers and bad losers (of course world online nation has a lot less games ).
So what i was trying to say is that the system is working great.
One thing tough A top with the guys who give bad honours would be interesting don't u think ? 
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Sir_Stiven
Honorable
Legendary Hero
banned
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posted November 01, 2003 01:34 PM |
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I understand you mathesis but a system where losers report good/neutral honor and where the winners report bad/neutral honor would never work since it would end up having the top players all good honored because no one would be able to give em bad honor and vice versa.
On the other hand a system that shows how many players that gives poor honor when they lose and good honor when they win should be interesting.
Myself i always start thinking from neutral honor, then if opponent plays fair and honorable he gets good honor. If his unhonorable in some way i will give him bad honor and if his not any of the above mentioned neutral will do.
Then i think coaie has a good point.
You should be obligated to fill in a motivation every time you give someone good/bad honor IMO. That would mostly reduce the bad honor reports since coming up with a valid motivation wont be as appealing as just click the bad honor box while cursing over the game you lost.
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bjorn190
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Jebus maker
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posted November 01, 2003 04:23 PM |
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When the toh Honor system was suggested and debated, it was also suggested to somehow show "honor level of handouts" so that you can see
1. How much honor someone gets from others.
2. How much honor someone gives to others.
But.. its better the way it is now becase
1. It is simple
2. It works.
3. Its the same for everyone.
And the real beauty is, it gives your opponent the *power* to judge you, without consulting with anyone else. That means you have to respect him and be nice, because thats the only way to get good honor - to actually play with honor.
Most criticism against the system seems to be
1. some ppl dont want to give others the control of their honor rating.
2. They want some system where they reduce the opponents control, if hes bad, a loser, a noob, or something or other that they are afraid of.
But I think its really good to allow everyone the right to let people know how they thought the other guy played. And Im not afraid of it, because I try to be nice to the ppl I play, even if they are unaware of our unwritten laws.
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kasparov
Adventuring Hero
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posted November 01, 2003 06:13 PM |
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grendal
Adventuring Hero
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posted November 01, 2003 07:37 PM |
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I understand what your saying and why you want the system changed Mathesis but i think the system works as is (for the most part). You could've avoided the poor honor report if u had done things differently
Firstly, you called the guy a cheater (imo using bugs like that is cheating). In his mind he wasnt cheating, therefore u can expect the poor honor rating from him. If u hadnt been such a nice guy, the proper thing to do would have been to report him.
Dont report the win in the tradiional way. File a complaint with HC explaining what happened and that u won the game. Then as long as the HC is involved, things would have worked out ( or at least i'd like to think they would have )
Also although your honour ranking has dropped, i will still gladly play u as i consider u honorable
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Life is full of frustrations, heroes should help release it!
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Sir_Stiven
Honorable
Legendary Hero
banned
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posted November 04, 2003 12:34 AM |
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bah i problably shouldnt be writing this now as am kinda pissed off about it but this is the story.
Me and opp played a temp from midnights mix... i got lucky with starting area and had a lvl 7 dwell amongst other things. My 2nd town also was a dungeon so i got a summoner from there.. so instead of getting 2 drags every week like my opponent i got 5.
Also we had no rules whatsoever against any dwells... and since this was a poor temp with huge block (i was just about to fight horde of war unis week 5) but according to opponent there also was tougher blocks behind that it took along time before i was about to break.. i fought for a box and then i was on my way for the unicorn block where my opponent sees my troops on a carrying hero and notices that i have a pack of greens (10 of em). So he asks if i have a drag dwell and i answer that i do.
Then he says that he concedes and will never play me again and reports my honor as bad.
That gets to me.
Was i extremely lucky? yeah i was.
Did i cheat or in any way played unhonorable? off course not.
we had a fun game until then and talked some about the game and had a few laughs about it. I did enjoy the game that far and im sure my opponent did too even if he had a bad start according to himself.
Point is that if he had had similar luck or got a couple of topes or something and would have been doing good too and eventually won im sure he would have reported my honor as a good one. But because of this im stuck with being "average honor" now since ive only played 2 games.
And that sucks IMO, i might be a tossing loud mouth both here and in zone but i dont play unhonorable. I am a fair player and i value sportsmanship high. Thats why a thing like this gets to me.
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Nebuka
Promising
Supreme Hero
Save me Jebus!
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posted November 04, 2003 01:59 AM |
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From what you wrote seems like your opp have higher chances to drop into someones 'do not play' list.
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Mathesis
Tavern Dweller
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posted November 04, 2003 02:00 AM |
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Quote:
bah i problably shouldnt be writing this now as am kinda pissed off about it but this is the story.
Me and opp played a temp from midnights mix... i got lucky with starting area and had a lvl 7 dwell amongst other things. My 2nd town also was a dungeon so i got a summoner from there.. so instead of getting 2 drags every week like my opponent i got 5.
Also we had no rules whatsoever against any dwells... and since this was a poor temp with huge block (i was just about to fight horde of war unis week 5) but according to opponent there also was tougher blocks behind that it took along time before i was about to break.. i fought for a box and then i was on my way for the unicorn block where my opponent sees my troops on a carrying hero and notices that i have a pack of greens (10 of em). So he asks if i have a drag dwell and i answer that i do.
Then he says that he concedes and will never play me again and reports my honor as bad.
The fact that a legionaire that has "high honor" (and a huge HoMM3 experience) reported "poor honor" to another very honorable player shows that there is no such thing as "objectivity" after someone loses. That`s exactly why I think that the loser should be prevented from reporting "poor honor": like I said, his loss makes his judgment temporarely unobjective, that`s a fact. Similarly and for the same reason, the winner should be prevented from reporting "good honor".
But spare me the replies, I know that nothing`s gonna change anyway.
M.
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vesuvius
Hero of Order
Honor Above all Else
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posted November 04, 2003 02:16 AM |
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why the hell is 'average honor' a bad thing? Its like in peoples heads if they get that rating they are the scum of the earth. Average is average, not bad, abysmal, or defamatory.
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Sir_Stiven
Honorable
Legendary Hero
banned
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posted November 04, 2003 02:42 AM |
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I can only speak for myself but when i see someone who has "average" honor i think of that player as someone whos opponents have had bad gaming experience with.
If two players at same time challenged me for a game and i dont know any of em and one is honorable and one is average honor i would pick the honorable one without a doubt.
But its just not the fact that im rated as "average honor" now that i dont like, i really dont being put as bad honor because of i take a lvl 7 dwell lol.
We had as i said no rules against it and ive never heard of "no lvl 7 dwells" as an unwritten rule.
So being rated as bad honor after game and then drop to someones "do not playlist" because of it is just BS IMO.
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tewilligar
Famous Hero
Just another willigar
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posted November 04, 2003 09:25 PM |
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different strokes for different folks. once in a game vs rych i had ramp and a cliff,4 uni dwells among other things. week 2 i tell him this,and suggest we call the game a draw as it would be unfair. (he admitted he had no dwells)
now...does this mean everyone should do this? of course not. just my thing. i know of many good players that would just go ahead and play it out.
as for your opponent stiven,who's to say if he had those dwells he wouldnt use them? he was just probably mad he was the victim of "randomization". sad to see he reported the way he did.
in the end,the toh honor system does work..why you ask?
after many games played,1 or 2 lousy reports arent going to make a big impact when 75% of the rest of the players report you with high honor and the rest just as neutral.
it all works out in the end
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ZZZZzzzzZZZZzzzz
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hamsi128
Promising
Supreme Hero
tosser tavern owner
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posted November 04, 2003 11:19 PM |
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Sometimes randoms have risk to be unbalanced... this is why i play randommaps... new maps everytime new strategy to save my butt... in a game vs Kuma, ''midnights mix'' created dwarfen tunnels.. with rampart i have 7 dwarf dwellings, 3 unicorn dwellings , 2 pegasi dwellings and 1 dragon dwelling(luckybastage128) in my terrain... i asked him his terrain position and with tower his situation was bad... i offered to restart ... BUT i offered restart because i know that kuma will do same if i was in his position ... if stiven and his opponent change situation, what his opponent do? offer stiven to restart? non, i dont think so..
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quoting my post = bullet in your head
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Conanthebarbar
Hired Hero
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posted November 05, 2003 04:46 PM |
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Well, yes. These stories clearly show why some ppl gets average/low honour and others get high honour. Hamsi and Tewilligar used the same way as I would do, the tosser just walked on his way. Nothing wrong with that either, but you must decide you need the points at all price or do you need high honour, both cant work at same time. At least rarely does...
If opponent senses his ore mine and sawmill heavily blocked and let you know this, almost all ppl give restart to opponent. But how the hell can opponent figure you have 2 dragon dwellings or 4 unicorn dwellings?? This is more decisive edge than having no sawmill. So if you want high honour let inform opponent or at least ask him/her if he/she has some good dwellings... Otherwise really hard to get high honour. If you see 2 drag dwellings or 5 cons and play on without asking or saying anything to opponent. Its not honorable, its legal, but sneaky. Thats my opinion.
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Sir_Stiven
Honorable
Legendary Hero
banned
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posted November 05, 2003 05:05 PM |
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well i think like this...
since i have learned some about making RMG templates now and basically every made template has the same values for starting zones and then if i have a big starting zone and have for example a drag cliff my opponent will most likely also have a big starting zone and even if he doesnt get a lvl 7 dwell he might get like a lvl 5 dwell and some hives or arts or something. Usually seen on a big map these things can balance out against eachother.
And for the record i also pointed out that i had a great starting area and asked how my opp was doing and he said that heŽll "manage as always" so i figured it cant be that bad even if he said he had a tough start a few days earlier.
But it was a tough map and i fought for example lots of elves day3-4 to be able to get anywhere. And i pulled off some really nice fighting in the beginning, if not i doubt i would have done so well as i did. I had a really good game playing too so it wasnt just luck, i think i made one battle mistake in 5 weeks...thats gotta be a record on my behalf
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