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| Thread: Heroes and Reputation. | |
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Djive
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
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posted November 22, 2003 01:50 PM |
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Heroes and Reputation.
Here's a new idea for making Heroes better. Introduce a Reputation rating for a Hero.
Whenever a Hero is in an army which does something which affects the reputation, then the Hero's reputation is affected in a positive or negative way.
It could for instance be like this.
Each battle won: +1 Reputation.
Fleeing a battle: -5 Reputation.
Surrendering a Battle: -3 Reputation.
Each Major Artifact acquired: +1 Reputation (only for the hero who picks it up.)
Each Relic Acquired: +2 (only for the hero who picks it up.)
Digging up a Treasure: +2 (only for the hero who picks it up.)
Digging up the Grail: +5 (only for the hero who picks it up.)
Nobility rank: Adds bonuses to your Reputation for each week that passes, if the Hero is appointed Governer in a City.
Defeating enemy Hero: +1 Reputation (for each Hero in own army)
So what benefits will the Reputation give?
I think the appropriate effect of Reputation is that creatures flock to the Heroes banner. In other words the Hero gets a personal guard and side-kicks which enhances the hero's abilities. The side-kicks would give abilities additional abilities, boosts the heroes stats or have some other benefits. These side-kicks could be personal for a Hero, and appear randomly when the Honour of the Hero increases. Each time the Hero's reputation increases, there is a chance that the hero will attract a side-kick or an additional creature.
Each Hero has a creature which the hero will attract. Often this will be of the some race as the hero, but for the more common races they'll be able to attract other creatures. The creatue attracted must have an alignment compatible with the hero's alignment.
Below I'll outline some features which fit if the assumption is that Heroes remain on the battlefield. Idea needs to be adapted and tweaked if this is not the case.
- The attracted creatures are personal to the Hero. That is they are part of the hero stack and cannot be moved away from the Hero. Player is allowed to give Hero more creatures, but not to take them away.
- If Hero stack attacks in melee then the creatures also attack in melee. Casualties are taken from the creature stack. The Hero stack gains any specials possessed by the creature stack. That is both the Hero's specials and the creatures' special are applicable for the stack.
- If Hero stack attacks using ranged attack, then both hero creatures also tries to use a ranged attack. If they have none, then only the hero/creature will do damage.
- If creature has spellpoints or spell abilities, then the Hero get access to these. In other words spells and spellpoints are shared between the Hero and the creatures.
How much creatures will flock to the Hero's banner?
I think this should be based both on Hero level and on hero reputation. The start Reputation of a Hero could be 10. The Hero can attract 1 XP worth of creatures per day for each Reputation point. The Hero level will give say a 5% increase per level to this XP.
Bonus creatures an side-kicks will be awarded when Reputation increases. Side-kick improvements are of two types: either a new side-kick is attracted or an existing one is improved.
Send in comments either on the idea itself, or give comments to more things that should affect the reputation (+ or -) or more benefits with having high reputation.
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"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"
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ElderiaN
Hired Hero
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posted November 22, 2003 02:33 PM |
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Great idea, Djive.
I think that Reputation would be useful.
P.S. Why don't help creating HoMM5???
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Swearing means the loss of innocence, brutality - loss of feelings, hail to the darkside - everlasting pain.
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ElderiaN
Hired Hero
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posted November 22, 2003 02:54 PM |
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Why wouldn't we recall Reputation a Fate
I swept this idea from War of the Ring. There should be fate points. Each specie of heroes has its own Fate powers.
How can we get Fate?
Easily. Here's the board.
Each battle won: +1 Fate
Each battle lost: -1 Fate
Each flee from battle: -3 Fate
Each surrender from battle: -5 Fate
Each Minor Artifact: +1 Fate
Each Major Artifact: +2 Fate
Each Relic Artifact: +3 Fate
Each Grail: +5 Fate
One town: +1 Fate/month
Two towns: +2 Fate/month
Three towns: +4 Fate/month
Four or more towns: +8 Fate/month
Effect is the same as your reputation, Djive. Only called in other way.
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Swearing means the loss of innocence, brutality - loss of feelings, hail to the darkside - everlasting pain.
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Djive
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
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posted November 22, 2003 03:51 PM |
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A hero should not be able to govern several towns. (At least not if you give creature production boosts as in H4.) So I think I prefer my Nobility bonus for one town.
The Grail bonus could perhaps affect each Hero the player owns in addition to the one who finds the Grail.
I like Reputation or perhaps Honor better than Fate, since the former is likely to attract creatures to flock to your banner but Fate is not.
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"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"
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bort
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Discarded foreskin of morality
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posted November 22, 2003 04:28 PM |
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You should split it into two categories -- fame and reputation.
Fame starts from 0 and goes up based on battles won, towns conquered, etc. and represents how well known the hero is, ie, how likely it is for your average orc peasant to go "Oh my god! It's you, Groblak the Undistinguished!"
Reputation goes on a scale from -5 to 5 and represents whether the hero is known as a vicious bastard or a goody two shoes. Distributing gold to the peasants might raise the reputation, while chasing down a stack that is trying to flee would lower it. Different creatures would have different favored reputations, for instance an angel would expect nothing less than a 5 and would suffer penalties if they were led by a hero with a negative reputation while a devil would be opposite.
So lets say your hero comes upon a stack of angels:
Low fame, they don't know who the hell he is, so they attack.
Medium fame, reputation 5, depending on what they are guarding, they may simply let the hero pass.
High fame, reputation 5, angels offer to join hero.
High fame, reputation 0, angels fight, but suffer morale penalty since they think they might be overmatched
Medium fame, reputation -5, angels fight and get morale bonus since they think they are ridding the world of an evil being.
High fame, reputation -5, angels run since they've heard some pretty sick stuff about hero.
Devils would have opposite reactions, creatures like orcs or elves would have intermediate responses.
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Drive by posting.
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Djive
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
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posted November 22, 2003 04:48 PM |
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Edited By: Djive on 22 Nov 2003
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Seems that your Fame matches to what I called Reputation.
But isn't the thing you call Reputation simply the Hero's Alignment? And if so what should affect this Alignent/Reputation?
Having thought a bit more on my proposal, then perhaps it would work better this way:
With Heroes in battle version 2.
- The base slots per army is reduced to 5 or 6.
- The Hero and the favoured creature appears in different slots, and each of them has their own action.
- Hero gives stat boosts to the favoured creature stack.
- If the favoured creature stack is wiped out the Hero appears on that Hex on the battlefield.
- Heroes would be alot easier to beat on their own. (Perhaps 10 Peasants would take out a lvl 1 Mage mage, perhaps 1 dragon would be required to take out a pure high level fighter.)
- If Hero stack is also taken out then the Hero is captured, and will be held for Ransom unless the player wins the combat.
Version with Heros outside battle.
- The base slots per army is reduced to 5 or 6.
- The Hero and the favoured creature appears in different slots, and each of them has their own action.
- Hero gives stat boosts to favoured creature stacks.
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"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"
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bort
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Discarded foreskin of morality
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posted November 22, 2003 05:37 PM |
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Alignment only determines your starting reputation. A paladin who chases down and butchers a stack of peasants as they try to flee shouldn't be considered "good."
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Drive by posting.
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Djive
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
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posted November 22, 2003 05:53 PM |
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It's easy to say what good Heroes shouldn't do. But what should shift Evil Heroes alignment towards Good?
Should Evil Heroes get an aligment shift towards Good because they accept Surrender from a stack of Imps? Or if they accept Surrender from a stack of Peasants?
The problem lies a bit in that you're fighting a War, and there aren't that many things that are Good.
I guess you could use Quest Huts for Good and Evil Quests, but most things you do in the game are either Neutral or Evil, regardless if you do it for the Cause of Greater Evil or Greater Good.
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"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"
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Gerdash
Responsible
Famous Hero
from the Animated Peace
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posted November 25, 2003 05:12 PM |
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Djive:
Quote:
How much creatures will flock to the Hero's banner?
all creatures in the army are already under the hero's banner, aren't they?
why should creatures being in the hero's stack depend on anything but the fact that the hero commanded them to do so (the player commanded the creatures by using the hero).
if the creatures would act as if auto-combat was 'on' and the player only controlled the hero, then some creatures becoming obsessed with the idea that they should protect the hero from all harm should of course depend on the hero's reputation. but in homm the creatures either do what the hero says or don't do anything. so where would this idea fit exactly? or was it just brainstorming?
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otherways it looks a lot like the idea that heroes should be able to be the last unit in a stack, which i also support myself if the heroes would be on the battlefield at all.
for hero development i would rather suggest associating hero exp and levels with morale bonuses, and rework the morale bonuses. i think that 'morale' is what captures the meaning of the effect of a well-developed hero (with good reputation or fame) on the troops. there might be some other effects, but imho morale is the main effect.
this might bring about the need to thoroughly rework the morale effects, though. and i guess there might be some other (probably minor) effects that might not very well fit under morale.
in homm4 they tryed to shake the old system of forcing higher level heroes to be stronger than lower level heroes by reducing the effect of the hero on the attack and defense stats of the creatures, and i support that.
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what is the safest way to pass your time? heroes community -- your posts won't affect almost anything
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UndeadLord
Known Hero
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posted November 25, 2003 05:41 PM |
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Good ideas Djive. I have a idea. Maybe angels couldn't be recruited if the hero don't have good fame or reputation. And with bad guys like Devils they won't join you if you have good fame or reputation. You must have bad fame and reputation for them. This idea is for lvl.4 but may work with lower levels like lowering the fame and reputation levels. Like if lvl.4 needed fame like 15 and reputation about 20 so you have to fight before getting lvl.4 and with lvl.3 like fame 7 and reputation about 10. And lvl.2 you can get without fighting. This all because higher levels think that you aren't enough good leader for them. What you think about this?  or 
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Djive
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
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posted November 25, 2003 07:28 PM |
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gerdash: You're probably reading to much into the statement. The sentence you quoted is to reflect the fact that the hero attracts new creatures for free, much the same way as the Summoning skill but the creature summoned depends entirely on the Hero. If the Hero has an own "bodyguard" stack of creatures then it would make sense to add the new summons to that stack, instead of adding them to another stack which is in the same army.
You're probably right about morale. It makes sense if a hero's level and the leadership a hero are connected in some way.
undeadlord: This is partly already so in Heroes 4. Diplomacy never works on your enemies, only on your allies. (And I think it will work on Might troops as well.) The alignment counted from in Heroes 4 is the Hero's alignment. (Charm on the other hand works on anyone, but in that case it's a different kind of persuasion.)
A problem with your proposal is that a player doesn't have an alignment at the moment, though this could be introduced. And when it comes to towns only the player's alignment can really be considered for limiting recruitments (since a player can have Heroes from several different alignments.)
It would also be awkward to require a hero to be in town or you wouldn't be allowed to recruit creatures. That would force your hero to return to start town just to recruit the high level creatures. This can easily add a lot of game time, while not adding all that much gaming experience to the game.
It is better to assign penalties to towns which are not of appropriate alignments. Perhaps they produce less gold, perhaps creatue production is reduced or similar.
There has been suggestions before to limit stack size or creature levels depending on Hero level. I'm overall neutral to this. The implementation of the feature must be right, and it's not an idea which automatically fits well in the game either. But under the right circumstances the idea has some merits.
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"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"
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Gerdash
Responsible
Famous Hero
from the Animated Peace
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posted November 26, 2003 12:43 PM |
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Djive:
i guess i don't quite like the idea for the same reasons that i don't like the leaders idea, and this is probably just a matter of taste. they both make me feel that the idea would introduce a rudimentary feature (sorry for being a bit unjust here).
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RedSoxFan3
Admirable
Legendary Hero
Fan of Red Sox
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posted December 11, 2003 09:33 PM |
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I'd like to add a couple other thoughts into this idea.
My thoughts are to create a new building in a town that would work for the reputation/alignment idea. The greater the reputation of a hero the more followers the hero will get. You could build a structure in each town called Follower's Post (I don't have a good name for it)
Whenever a hero visits a town there will be a certain number of followers that the hero will attract. These will be based on the heroes alignment.
Let's Say for example you have Crag Hack. He has a reputation of like 50. He visits a Stronghold that is fully built. He visits the Follower's Post and finds 18 goblins, 6 wolfriders 2 Thunderbirds.
This structure should have multiple upgrades.
Statue:
You can create a statue for your heroes. This will not increase the heroes reputation, however it increases the number of volunteers by 50% that are generated in that town.
Propaganda Press:
This doubles the number of volunteers.
Moderator's note:This topic has been closed, as it refers to an older version of the game. To discuss Heroes 3, please go to Library Of Enlightenment, to discuss Heroes 4, please go to War Room Of Axeoth, to discuss Heroes 5, go to Temple Of Ashan.
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Go Red Sox!
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