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setitetart
Known Hero
Reality check....
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posted July 24, 2007 05:41 AM |
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As always, that bears down to whether the word of the Bible should be taken literally. I think most branches of christianity has now come to realize that the wording of the Bible represents as much the norms of the time at which it was put down (400 AD, or so, right?) as the true philosophy of the religion.
So true. But any update of the Bible would prove to be a literal disaster since no one would ever be able to agree. Besides that you are not supposed to add in or edit out ANY portion of the Bible even though its been done quite a number of times but several sects of christianity to suite their own purposes.
*SHRUGS*
I am waiting to hear back from certain churches, I called and also wrote to some of the religions presents here to get their official stance or supporting doctines on their positions regarding several key points that have been said on this particular post.
This should be interesting. 
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"Do you think we should drive a stake through his heart, just in case?"
~ Peter Lorre to Vincent Price at Bela Lugosi's funeral
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TitaniumAlloy
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Professional
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posted July 24, 2007 11:03 AM |
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In Biblical usage, 'fornication' can mean..
It can mean that, it can mean this, it actually means what we want it to mean since it's not explained anywhere in the Bible, say hello to middle ages which show a good example of EXAGGERATION. Christian Answers aren't any kind of moral autority to me, neither a guide, so I don't see why we should understand it the way extreme bigots see it (or want to see it).
Well, it's a translation of the word.
I was just trying to quell any ridiculous claims that the bible takes any other stance besides "gays should be killed".
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shadey you are off topic. and you continue to answer only those questions you deem appropriate. what is wrong, is it too hard to answer a few question and have some honor in this?
The hypocrite speaks. 
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John says to live above hell.
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The_Gootch
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Kneel Before Me Sons of HC!!
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posted July 24, 2007 11:42 PM |
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If people wish to stand from atop their Ivory Towers and tell gay people that what they do is morally wrong, that's their business. It is their right.
The problem I and many others have is when these people attempt to enact legislation that discriminates against homosexuals. That isn't right. That is not acceptable.
Actually, these discriminatory laws have long been on the books in varying degrees in this country. Only in the last fifteen years have there been successful challenges against them. We're stepping in the right direction towards making this society more egalitarian. We're making progress. But people like Shadey are slowing us down.
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I imagine that the next thread will be about beastiality, pedophilia, and incest.
A typical response from reactionaries about where to draw the moral line when it comes to humans and sex. Equating gays with people who harm animals, children, and other family members is pretty damn shameful.
Since your sole moral authority, Shadey, is the bible you're going to have a difficult time persuading anyone to your point of view. Your intended audience seems then to be people who are already inclined to think the way you do. Why should anyone who isn't a Christian or as energetic a Christian respect that authority?
What's to keep a Muslim from calling you a clown and show you how his holy book is more pure than your holy book? What's to keep a Jew from telling you to get bent because you want to put Jesus of Nazareth up on a pedestal?
You're not convincing anyone. All you're doing is wagging that finger of yours from your pulpit. And those of us who really don't care for that kind of preaching are going to tune you out.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted July 24, 2007 11:55 PM |
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What will happen now?
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Shadey
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 24, 2007 11:56 PM |
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We're stepping in the right direction towards making this society more egalitarian. We're making progress. But people like Shadey are slowing us down.
You were perty quick to erect your own ivory tower to stand over me wagging your finger.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted July 25, 2007 12:03 AM |
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Quote:
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We're stepping in the right direction towards making this society more egalitarian. We're making progress. But people like Shadey are slowing us down.
You were perty quick to erect your own ivory tower to stand over me wagging your finger.
Sorry, but from what I've read of your posts, it's kind of hard to argue against the fact that you're not exactly pro gay-liberation, if that's a proper term to use.
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What will happen now?
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violent_flower
Promising
Supreme Hero
Almost there.
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posted July 25, 2007 12:04 AM |
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OOOOO! Shadey steps up to the plate, he swings, Pause..pause... strike three....
Playing the wrong game with the wrong HCer..
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Learn how to duck and weave because I will throw truth at you all day!
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pandora
Honorable
Legendary Hero
The Chosen One
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posted July 25, 2007 12:10 AM |
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Shadey, you tend to say things that are rather... erm.. inflammatory - and then when asked to elaborate or solidly defend your position - you don't follow through.
Perhaps you would be met with more respect, and this would be a more interesting "debate" if you were to answer some of their questions, so they know exactly where you stand and what they are debating against 
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"In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends."
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violent_flower
Promising
Supreme Hero
Almost there.
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posted July 25, 2007 12:20 AM |
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I think that is fair to say we all enjoy a good debate and we all have our serious side. When asked a fair question it is nice to have it answered so we have a better idea of what we are debating.
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Learn how to duck and weave because I will throw truth at you all day!
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Shadey
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 25, 2007 12:29 AM |
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Quote:
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We're stepping in the right direction towards making this society more egalitarian. We're making progress. But people like Shadey are slowing us down.
You were perty quick to erect your own ivory tower to stand over me wagging your finger.
Sorry, but from what I've read of your posts, it's kind of hard to argue against the fact that you're not exactly pro gay-liberation, if that's a proper term to use.
What do you mean by pro gay-liberation?
The Gootch strongly hinted that he is in the morally superior position and painted the same ivory tower picture by using the term egalitarian while saying that people like me are ruining it. He could have got the point across without wagging his finger at me.
I've already stated my support for civil unions for homosexuals. Other than that what equality issues exist? Religion IS seperate from government. Christianity is both a completely inclusive group and exclusive by the fact that you have to accept the tenures of Christianity. God doesn't hate homosexuals. I don't hate anyone. I certainly don't hate homosexuals. I don't hate psuedo-hermaphrodites. The suggestions that I'm guilty of hate crimes is absurd.
As to VF's question about hermaphrodites. I feel that's it's insulting to hermaphrodites to paint a picture that they are unable to figure out for themselves what sex they are or want to be. The church doesn't claim to decide what sex a hermaphrodite truely is. If they decide that they are whatever sex and marry someone from the opposite sex, then nothing is wrong with that.
Any other questions?
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pandora
Honorable
Legendary Hero
The Chosen One
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posted July 25, 2007 12:33 AM |
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Edited by pandora at 00:34, 25 Jul 2007.
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Thank you Shadey
Setitetart is unable to post right now due to the restriction (LOL )
So I am posting this on her behalf:
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Evangelical
Definition:
1. of Protestant churches emphasizing personal salvation: relating or belonging to any Protestant Christian church that emphasizes the authority of the Bible and salvation through the personal acceptance of Jesus Christ
2. relating to Christian Gospels: relating to or based on the Gospels of the Christian Bible
3. with strong beliefs: enthusiastic or zealous in support of a particular cause and very eager to make other people share its beliefs or ideals
evangelist
Definition:
1. e·van·gel·ist (plural e·van·ge·lists) or E·van·gel·ist (plural E·van·gel·ists) writer of Christian Gospel: a writer of any of the four books of the Christian Bible known as a Gospel
2. Christian who converts others: a Christian who tries to persuade other people to become Christian, especially at public gatherings or in broadcasts
This could be anyone…yes?
Now I did say that I wouldn’t comment anything more until I heard for myself from some of these churches their position on gays, gay marriage and adoption and whether or not they could be an active congregant or even an active priest.
I have got my answers.
sighs
I called 4 Evangelical churches in my area, 2 Evangelical Covenants and 2 Evangelical Free Churches, and I spoke with the authority in those churches, meaning a priest or pastor that had some kind of authority and knowledge of their churches doctrines to speak for his church on their beliefs and stance on those particular topics.
I learned that the Evangelicals most closely identify with Baptists.
That the majority of Evangelical churches use as their accepted bible the NIV Bible.
Then after a few minutes of pleasantries and explaining why I was calling, we got to the meat of the conversations.
According to these pastors:
On gay marriage, they simply will NOT perform a gay marriage of any kind stating that it is an aberration of God.
On having gay congregants, they will not accept into their church anyone that is openly gay unless they REFORM.
If they discover that someone is gay in their church…they “remove” them, excommunicate them from the congregation.
On that same note, they will not allow any ordained gay pastor to oversee their congregations.
One pastor told me flatly that it was “just not acceptable to be gay”.
So.
That is what I learned.
Now can someone please tell me how that really isn’t discrimination?
Churches are supposed to be places where you learn to love people despite being flawed and imperfect.
Places where you are supposed to learn compassion, tolerance, and understanding.
Boy was I ever wrong there…..
Instead it just looks to me like they more or less say only love certain people.
That doesn’t seem right.
But you know what? I don’t care.
While I am disgusted beyond belief that any church would behave so judgmentally towards people….
I got my answers and it explained a lot about Shadey’s views
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"In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends."
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted July 25, 2007 12:37 AM |
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What do you mean by pro gay-liberation?
When I say pro gay-liberalism, I mean considering homo sexuality and all the aspects of it - gay marriage, gay right for adoption, etc. - in a less conservative light than what the bible presents. Large parts of many western societies are moving in the general direction that gay relationships are just as valid as heterosexual ones, and represent the love and respect of two people for each other, with gender really just being of secondary importance. The views you have presented have not exactly been beneficial for such a change of view, to say the least.
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What will happen now?
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violent_flower
Promising
Supreme Hero
Almost there.
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posted July 25, 2007 12:47 AM |
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As to VF's question about hermaphrodites. I feel that's it's insulting to hermaphrodites to paint a picture that they are unable to figure out for themselves what sex they are or want to be. The church doesn't claim to decide what sex a hermaphrodite truely is. If they decide that they are whatever sex and marry someone from the opposite sex, then nothing is wrong with that.
Yes as a matter fact I do. The hermaphrodite is in no way insulted by my concerns for them having issues as to what sex they should be. The church may not decide what sex they should be, but how does your church feel if a hermaphrodite has male features and actually poses as a man, but is attracted to men instead of women. Do you excommunicate them for being what you would consider “gay”? After all they are a man on the outside have some male and some female parts, but may have stronger physical features of a male. What will your church do with them?
Between the researches my niece has done and the research I have done on the evangelical church, it very much appears to be more along the lines of a CULT. She was sick talking to the different churches about gays and how they treat them. According to the pastor of the church Tay spoke with, not only will they kick you out if they find out your gay, they don’t allow female pastors. Um, sounds like a place that is not loving, but judgmental I for one would be ashamed Shadey, to belong to a place like that. All I have to say is rent Jesus Camp, enough said.
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Learn how to duck and weave because I will throw truth at you all day!
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Shadey
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 25, 2007 12:59 AM |
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John 8
1But Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. 2At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them. 3The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group 4and said to Jesus, "Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?" 6They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.
But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. 7When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." 8Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.
9At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. 10Jesus straightened up and asked her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?"
11"No one, sir," she said.
"Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin."
In my response to Setitetart. Notice that Jesus did not condemn the women despite the life of sin she was living. Also notice that Jesus tells her to leave her life of sin.
Setitetart is trying to paint a picture of Christians where they become the pharisees of the story and wish to stone and condemn homosexuals. Nothing is could be further from the truth. She uses words like discrimination to twist the real intentions of Christians. The highest perogative for a Christian is love, compassion, and tolerance. However, dispite those things we feel God has drawn a moral line for us to not cross and for the good of the Church we have to maintain order. By doing that we have to let people leave that refuse to believe what we believe.
A homosexual does not enter into church membership without knowing the views of Christianty about homosexuality. Yet, they deliberatly lie to everyone in the church and openly oppose the teachings. We have a CoC that every member agree's to follow. If they break the CoC and get banned they have a chance to reform their life. To call this discrimination is silly. This very forum does the exact same thing. You have your CoC and people who don't follow it are reprimanded. Is THAT discrimination?
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violent_flower
Promising
Supreme Hero
Almost there.
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posted July 25, 2007 01:06 AM |
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Did you read her reply where she called the churches that you are affiliated with? I'm on the phone with her and she would like you to respond to that, instead of quoting Bible verses that don't apply.
Excommunicating someone for being gay is discrimination. PERIOD.
The things that that pastor told her were all based around discrimination.
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Learn how to duck and weave because I will throw truth at you all day!
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Shadey
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 25, 2007 01:11 AM |
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Did you read her reply where she called the churches that you are affiliated with? I'm on the phone with her and she would like you to respond to that, instead of quoting Bible verses that don't apply.
Excommunicating someone for being gay is discrimination. PERIOD.
The things that that pastor told her were all based around discrimination.
I read about those churches and I agree with their assessment. Christianity believes that homosexuality is sexually immoral behavior and that in order to become members of the church they must stop practicing that life style.
If this forums bans anyone for not following the CoC, then they are discriminating against them. It's exactly the same principle, yet nobody claims that the mods here are hateful bigots.
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violent_flower
Promising
Supreme Hero
Almost there.
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posted July 25, 2007 01:34 AM |
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Jesus and God belong to everyone, and there is no comparison to the COC of your church, to the COC on a meaningless forum such as this. Do you at least agree that really the comparison is not even close? You are supposed to be able to walk into a place that promotes God and love and are accepted for who you are.
You as a Christian are supposed to take them in and not pass judgment on them. I did missionary work for a nondenominational church for five years. Going into prisons and bringing them a safety net where we did not judge them. Now if they are a pedophile or murderer, you would try to get them to understand that they were hurting others by their actions, being gay is not harming anyone.
So the debate comes down to them having the right as PEOPLE to reside in a church and pray along side you, as you are no better then them, and they no better than you.
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If this forums bans anyone for not following the CoC, then they are discriminating against them. It's exactly the same principle, yet nobody claims that the mods here are hateful bigots.
You see Shadey we would not banned someone because a person is gay, and you would, that makes you a discriminating church member, that to say the least has a twisted way of spreading the word.
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Shadey
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 25, 2007 01:50 AM |
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There is a distinction I want to make when I'm talking about being a member of a church.
Someone who just goes to church isn't a member of that church. My wife and myself have attended our current church for 7 years now. There are limitations to what they can participate in. I'm not allowed to vote, or preach, or baby sit children. (insurance reasons)It doesn't mean they are discriminating against me. In matters such as salvation and your standing before God the church doesn't really have a say. God knows if your name is written in the Lamb's book of life. God is the judge and the jury when the end comes.
The local church however has a group of people who are the leaders and decide what's best for the group. There is a CoC, which usually is the Bible and that churches interpretation of it. In order to become a member usually the leaders of the church meet with that person or family and decide through their story if they really are Christians in the first place. They explain what the church believes and whether or not they agree to it.
The greatest evangelist of all time was a murderer of Christians, but after he saw the truth of his actions he repented of that life and began life anew. We don't discriminate, but we do asked for a changed Christian life in our churches.
Does this help explain my position?
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antipaladin
Promising
Legendary Hero
of Ooohs and Aaahs
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posted July 25, 2007 02:02 AM |
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would you allow a gay atheist into ur cumminity,not cult,cumminity?
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types in obscure english
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Shadey
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 25, 2007 02:06 AM |
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Edited by Shadey at 02:23, 25 Jul 2007.
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Yeah, we would allow a gay atheiest to come and hear the sermon and participate in the singing and so forth every Sunday if they wished. However, they could not become a member of the church untill they repented of that lifestyle and agreed to the churches interpretation of the Bible. We don't stop people from entering to hear the good news.
Furthermore, if that person was poor and needed food, clothing, and a place to stay we would provide those needs aswell.
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