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| Thread: Martyr Spell a BUG?... Or yet another failed spell description? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Jinxer
Legendary Hero
*****
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posted December 25, 2003 08:08 PM |
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Well the description cannot be right if everyone says that Magic SHOULD do damage. The description says someone else takes damage, it doesnt say that the someone else takes damage based on what ever protections the protected one has?!?!?! I already used an analogy to illustrate it..
The way Djive explains it when you cast martyr you in a sense make the other guy a CLONE of you, he takes over any and all weaknesses the protected one has etc. Which the description doesnt say that. The decription simply says yu can choose someone else to accept the damage... so if I choose a Gold golem for example to accept any and all damges from my angels, which gold golems are so much of a % resistant to magic and someone casts 1000 disinegrate on angels then Djive is saying that 1000 magic damage is done to Gold Golems, basically all creatures specialties and abilities and bonuses that make them who they are, are totally erased, they become a clone of the stack you are protecting except they keep there normal hit points.
That is WRONG, based on the description. So to sum it up... if a 100% magic resistant unit can take magic damage because of martyr then the description is wrong.  No 2 ways about it.
Jinxer
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the_teacher
Supreme Hero
Talk to the hand!
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posted December 25, 2003 08:20 PM |
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jinxer, the fact is very simple : damage is REDISTRIBUTED , that damage taken if no martyr present.
so , using your example, if angels would have been taken 1000 damage from disintegrate this is the damage that goes to selected target , no matter its abillities, skills or artifacts, either is hero or raised creature or illusion. it's not so complicated, that's why i told you're a bit masochist
Merry Christmas !
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Jinxer
Legendary Hero
*****
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posted December 25, 2003 09:07 PM |
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No teacher see you and Zud are exactly the same. You explain something based on how it is known to work. I am not arguing with how it INFACT does work. I can plainly see HOW it is working. The problem is HOW the description says it is supposed to work. You may like how it currently works and thats fine, but that doesnt change the very simple fact that what the description says and what it does DONT match up.
Same thing was with the Fog of War I pointed out. When I brought it up to Zud, he said nothing wrong with it, " I think it works fine" Well that is all good except it isnt a matter of wether he liked it or wether teacher likes the way it works, it was a matter of was it working properly. The answer was no. So Dalai agreed and set off to try and fix it.
Same basic philosphy with my question about martyr. I realize how it is working, just pointed out that the way the description says it was working wrong was all.
Jinxer
Have a nice day 
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the_teacher
Supreme Hero
Talk to the hand!
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posted December 25, 2003 09:16 PM |
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Quote:
Jinxer
that was good, even you were amused
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Jinxer
Legendary Hero
*****
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posted December 25, 2003 09:33 PM |
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Edited By: Jinxer on 25 Dec 2003
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Being right IS amusing! You should try it sometime.
Jinxer
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Djive
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
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posted December 25, 2003 09:50 PM |
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Quote:
No teacher see you and Zud are exactly the same. You explain something based on how it is known to work. I am not arguing with how it INFACT does work. I can plainly see HOW it is working. The problem is HOW the description says it is supposed to work
I think the decription is logical enough. The way you want it to work would make it a level 5 spell costing 50 spellpoints to cast, or at least eseverly overpowered for a level 2 spell.
The spell has a simple mechanics and with simple rules. It's a really bad idea to make the spell more complex.
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"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"
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Jinxer
Legendary Hero
*****
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posted December 25, 2003 11:35 PM |
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DJive I really dont want to insult your level of intelligence, but why dont you listen? You keep saying that I want it to work this way or that way. I have NEVER said that. I simply noted that the decription was either bugged or wrong. And since we have all discussed it and pointed out that it is not bugged then the decription is just wrote wrong. No biggie. Problem solved. 3DO wrote another spell description wrong. I dont want it to work this way or that way, just want the descriptions to do as they say. Nothing more. When I read the description of a spell and use it for first time in battle expecting 1 result and seeing something totally and drastically different, it was a bit shocking.
But thanks to all for rationizing this subject and pointing out that 3Do just muffed abother description.
Case Closed
Jinxer
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Djive
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
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posted December 26, 2003 10:56 AM |
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And what is wrong with the description? I haven't the game before me, but lest's look at what you wrote.
"Martyr says that you can protect a unit while sending all damage to anyone you choose."
"Martyr protects one unit."
=> It does. The Angel(s) in your case doesn't take any damage until the Martyr stack is dead (in your case the Hero).
"Sending all damage to anyone you chose"
=> It does that too. Note it sends the "damage" to the other stack and not anything else, like "magical death damage", "physical ranged chaos damage" or the like. It just sends damage as description says.
Thus description is right.
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"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"
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Jinxer
Legendary Hero
*****
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posted December 26, 2003 06:09 PM |
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Quote:
Note it sends the "damage" to the other stack and not anything else, like "magical death damage", "physical ranged chaos damage" or the like. It just sends damage as description says.
Thus description is right.
You just contradicted your self. You just said, that it sends physical damage and NOT Magic damage. However it does send Magic damage. That is what started this whole topic lol. ANd the crazy thing is I think it should send the magic damage, but if the recepient is 100% magic resistance then the magic part of the damage shouldnt work.
So make up your mind. If your gonna argue the point you should pick one side and stick with it lol
Jinxer
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Djive
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
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posted December 26, 2003 06:21 PM |
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No I didn't. The description you wrote of the spell just said "damage". Which per default is just that: that is "damage", and nothing more than damage.
There's nothing in the spell description to let you assume that the "damage" transferred has additional properties than being "damage".
I've already made up my mind, though you seem to want to interpret my words in ways they were not meant to be interpreted.
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"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"
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Jinxer
Legendary Hero
*****
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posted December 26, 2003 10:28 PM |
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Edited By: Jinxer on 26 Dec 2003
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Quote:
No I didn't. The description you wrote of the spell just said "damage". Which per default is just that: that is "damage", and nothing more than damage.
There's nothing in the spell description to let you assume that the "damage" transferred has additional properties than being "damage".
I've already made up my mind, though you seem to want to interpret my words in ways they were not meant to be interpreted.
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Okay lets start over here.....
The spell description is explained exactly like this:
" All the damage done to a 2nd friendly target will be transferred to the recipient of the spell. "
Now my only problem with this is, that it doesnt say that the recipient of the spell loses all protections and abilities.
Jinxer
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the_teacher
Supreme Hero
Talk to the hand!
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posted December 26, 2003 10:35 PM |
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Blue_Camel
Famous Hero
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posted December 27, 2003 05:07 AM |
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Quote:
All the damage done to a 2nd friendly target will be transferred to the recipient of the spell.
ah see, the description is definitely right it doesnt say "the attack" will be transferred, it says "the damage". the attack has already been made on the protected target, and the damage done by the attacker has already been determined by any modifiers that the protected stack has, such as defense, if it is a physical attack, or magic resistance, if it is a spell. then, after all modifiers have been dealt with, the raw damage is passed from the protected unit to the protector. The description definitely doesn't need to be changed. The reason that your hero did not resist the spell is that the angels did not pass the magical attack to the hero, they passed the raw damage.
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Jinxer
Legendary Hero
*****
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posted December 27, 2003 06:46 AM |
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You guys are total fruit cakes!!! I am not even gonna bother any more. H4 is becoming more stupid the more I learn about it. Camel, you just disected and twisted the description and explanation around until it fit. Raw damage?? lol. Give me a break hehe.
Damage goes from A ---> B
A doesnt become B
B doesnt become A
Damage bounces off A and goes to B
If B = Water Elementals then Icebolt shouldnt hurt them, REGARDLESS, if it came threw via Martyr or not. They are made of water, they are immune to icebolt! So by your rational Camel, if I was to protect angels and send damage to water elementals then icebolt would hurt them? And you dont think there is something fundamentally wrong with that???
FOr a breif moment I actually thought 3DO programmers made H4 game with some real depth. Seems they cant think very many levels deep. ( As in the results of a spell down the line and its repercusions) Lets just send the damage and not worry about any realizm lol.
Reminds me of some of the cheap computer games where the guy running thru the game runs threw trees if they get in his way instead of smacking his head and falling down.
Ohh well. Maybe theres hope for H5.
Jinxer
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Blue_Camel
Famous Hero
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posted December 27, 2003 06:59 AM |
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that's my point - the water elementals DONT absorb the ice bolt! they absorb the damage that creature A takes from the ice bolt.
jinxer can't ever admit that he's wrong
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Djive
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
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posted December 27, 2003 12:31 PM |
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There is no choice which is more realistic in this case.
You could transfer the attack by itself and apply it to the new target directly, which would give you the effect you desire.
You can't really transfer the damage and keep only what caused the damage. That simply gives a way too complex system and you would need ten lines of explaning texts to cover how all the cases really apply, and this just for one single spell.
You can (as was chosen) transfer the damage which was done by the attack.
All of the alternatives are "unrealistic" in the way that you can't really find a "realistic" way of doing something similar. Do recall that spells are fantasty and almost per definition doesn't give you realistic results.
Perhaps you meant "logial way", but even in that case I'd say you are wrong and that the chosen method is logical.
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"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"
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Jinxer
Legendary Hero
*****
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posted December 27, 2003 02:06 PM |
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Ok.
Close thread.
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BuckFarseer
Tavern Dweller
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posted January 06, 2004 11:27 PM |
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Hi guys! Sorry to interrupt your interesting discussion.
The manual says the DAMAGE is transferred. Not the SPELL. If the spell had been transferred i would have agreed w u Jinxer. But the spell has already resulted in damage. All that remains is to let the damage be inflicted on someone.
The transfer isnt a "bullet" that is redirected. Its an effect that takes place AFTER all spells and other effects of both the attacker and the defender has been used. The paladin is not allowed to include his abilities because he isnt part of the battle!
The manual only says the damage is transferred. It doesnt says the battle continues against the next in line.
Buck
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Blue_Camel
Famous Hero
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posted January 07, 2004 12:00 AM |
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that's what i said before, but jinxer would not listen to reason
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Jinxer
Legendary Hero
*****
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posted January 07, 2004 02:54 PM |
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Edited By: Jinxer on 7 Jan 2004
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I always listen to reason, but what you guys arent using is common sense.
Where did the damage come from? A SPELL! Without the spell, there is no damage.
BUCK!! Your post proved my point. You said that the damage only should go not the spell? Well both damage AND spell goes thru my friend. I had disinegrate cast on me and my hero died and disappeared. So now what do you have to say??
But I am done arguing it. There is obviously more than 1 way to look at it. I am over it. I just had to realize that 3do screwed the discription up and I now realize Martyr doesnt work as it is described. I lived and Learned. Case closed.
Jinxer
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