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| Thread: Creature Experience (Just another wish, eh...) |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 · «PREV |
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raZor_X
Promising
Known Hero
The mysterious Warlock
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posted June 05, 2001 10:19 PM |
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Wyvern
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted August 16, 2001 07:58 PM |
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The creature experience works perfect in Age of Wonders... but there is only one unit per slot in the army. So it is individual experience. Since in the Heroes series there can be more than one creature per slot, I don't think it's possilble to have an experience system.
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Blackdeath
Hired Hero
Zealot of The Light
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posted August 18, 2001 12:24 AM |
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I agree...
Wyvern I totally agree with you on that one...
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Emperor Blackdeath
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LordTitan
Famous Hero
Hit Dice: 76d12+608 HP
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posted October 02, 2001 01:59 AM |
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I like the monster exsperiance is a good idea.
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Spaek the Titan
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Tyrael_the_A...
Tavern Dweller
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posted March 31, 2002 09:14 AM |
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?
My brain hurts
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wizardboy
Known Hero
Look ma!..a glowing ball...
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posted April 01, 2002 05:56 AM |
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don't worry mate...we can drop the idea now since the game's out anyway...
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 Where do u go when you have gone too far?
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gerdash
Responsible
Famous Hero
from the Animated Peace
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posted January 04, 2004 11:48 AM |
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..and resurrect it again
it seems that this topic has become somewhat unwanted lately, but i think there might be a solution that is imho neither too complicated nor does it create contradictory situations with creature abilities (e.g. upgrade getting ability to fly).
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a creature stack gains exp based on the damage it does in combat. if some creature in a stack dies or is moved to another stack, it takes it's average exp per creature with it.
and, if the stack has enough exp, you can recruit an upgraded creature into another stack. or you can wait until the entire stack is ready to be upgraded, if you wish.
the main idea is that the upgraded and unupgraded creatures aren't together in the same stack. yet they are upgraded based on the combat exp they have got.
the indicator of exp that has gathered might be either a number that indicates how many creatures of the stack could be upgraded or an exp bar (full length of the exp bar could correspond to enough exp to upgrade all the stack).
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doesn't look like an extremely bright solution, but as far as i remember, at least one of the reasons to prefer creature exp over creature upgrades in towns was that you don't have to travel back to town to upgrade your creatures (most noticeable in homm3, i guess). and i think this system could solve this problem.
in addition to that it might imho enable at least one type of creature upgrades or lineups never used in homm before.
if you see some undesireable effects of the recently proposed creature exp system (lol), please do me a favour and say it out.
otherways, i am planning to write a longish post or maybe even start a thread on this system after some time.
Edit by ThE_HyDrA: Merged 2 Posts into 1; Resurrected.
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regnus_khan
Responsible
Supreme Hero
[ Peacekeeper of Equilibris ]
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posted January 13, 2004 07:21 PM |
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hmmm...
I'm new at this topic and if this was said earlier, I'm sorry. But I'll still say it.
if you want XP option, we can have it exactly as it was in Disciples II. After the combat, hero should gain half of XP
when creatures should gain their part of the half.
For example:
You gain 720 XP
Hero gain: 365
You have 6 creatures
One creature gain: 1/6 of 360 = 60 XP
Then if you want to upgrade creature, you have to collect a specific amount of XP for each creatures and build a specific building in a specific town.
I wonder if it was said before. If it was, I think my post is unuseful, but still it should mean that lots of us, members, think about the same things. ABOUT THE FUTURE OF H5
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Polaris
Promising
Known Hero
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posted January 14, 2004 08:05 AM |
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The only differences between creature upgrades and creature experience are the source of growth and the method of tabulation. Experience and creature upgrades both have a fairly logical source of growth. Tabulation of experience inside stacks, however, is a difficult barrier whereas creature upgrades have no conceptual barrier here. But even if there was a method of tabulating experience that everyone agreed was just as easy and natural as creature upgrades, does experience add anything even then?
1) [for the Hero format in HOMM1-3] Heroes already influence your creature's effectiveness. Most games that have exp, do not have heroes that govern the strength of entire armies. Hero experience has much the same effect as creature experience (boosts stats and sometimes gives new abilities, for instance if your hero has a certain skill or artifact). Hero experience is also much easier to keep track of than individual experience on a creature.
2) Creatures already have an abstract form of experience! You recruit more of them and stack them on top of each other. In an abstract way, this achieves almost everything that experience does. Coupled with creature upgrades, everything experience can possibly give you is already available. (Weekly growth actually just adds more redundancy to this upgrade cycle)
If you put 1 and 2 in conjunction, I would say creature experience is far too redundant to be a desirable feature. Either reason by itself, however, is a pretty tough barrier (especially 1). Reason 2 is a little bit weaker of a reason, but I think it conflicts more with idea of creature experience unless creature experience and creature upgrades both enhance the unit to the same "veteran" unit, or there are no creature upgrades (a big minus on town development).
Gerdash:
It is my understanding that your experience system basically creates two stacks: one upgraded and another not. Units transition from unupgraded to upgraded as they deal damage. This is almost identical to creature upgrades as far as stack management, but the (damage = exp) calculation seems awkward and favors fast/offensive units. Also yet another advantage is offered to the player that is winning because his units will get stronger faster, and they will even clean out army slots faster (ie. empty out unupgraded stacks) allowing for more diversity and strength. Overall, I would say it is feasible if heroes are on the battlefield, but is too redundant if heroes are commanders like in H1-3.
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gerdash
Responsible
Famous Hero
from the Animated Peace
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posted January 14, 2004 12:01 PM |
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the reason for upgrades based on accumulated exp is that you don't have to travel back to town for upgrades.
gave it some more thought, trying to find some flaws. if upgraded creatures cannot be recruited and upgrade can only be earned in battle (based on the accumulated damage the stack has done), then you would have both upgraded and unupgraded creatures in your army, and the upgraded stack doesn't help the unupgraded stack get experience.
Quote:
It is my understanding that your experience system basically creates two stacks: one upgraded and another not. Units transition from unupgraded to upgraded as they deal damage. This is almost identical to creature upgrades as far as stack management, but the (damage = exp) calculation seems awkward and favors fast/offensive units. Also yet another advantage is offered to the player that is winning because his units will get stronger faster, and they will even clean out army slots faster (ie. empty out unupgraded stacks) allowing for more diversity and strength.
just a clarification, that the units do not move from unupgraded stack to upgraded stack automatically. you manually recruit upgraded creatures from the unupgraded stack, using e.g. 200 damage from the accumulated damage pool per each upgraded creature you recruit.
if a creature is slow and does not do any damage, then what is it? a meatshield?
if a creature is fast and does a lot of damage, but has low defense, then the creatures that die proportionally reduce the amount of exp in the exp pool, as said:Quote:
if some creature in a stack dies or is moved to another stack, it takes it's average exp per creature with it.
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M77
Hired Hero
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posted April 15, 2004 06:06 PM |
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Why not to have in each hero experience points for each type of creatures. Each exp lvl for some creature gives +1 attack and defence.
For example 3rd lvl hero with 3000 exp has 1200 exp for skeletons, 900 for vampires and 900 for zombies. So all sceletons of the hero have +1 defence and attack.
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http://mattery.com/
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gerdash
Responsible
Famous Hero
from the Animated Peace
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posted May 20, 2004 08:39 PM |
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the unfortunate fact is that the system would not look very much like homm anymore, but personally i'm more interested in why the game is like it is and what happened if the system was different.
tryed to describe some possibilities to create different playing styles by having differences in the way creatures are upgraded: Thread: towns based on creature exp.
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polaris:
in medieval times the knights often wanted to show off in battles, probably so that they would get more fame and possibly earn a promotion in rank. i see this as creature upgrade. this is what makes me feel that creature upgrade (or advancement in rank of nobility) is something that might be earned in battle.
your point about hero experience and creature experience being redudndant is a valid one if you look at it that way. but imho hero experience is more like the leadership effect of the hero and creature upgrade is the difference between a low rank lightly armored horseman and a heavily armored knight. if creature upgrades are to be present in the game, i would consider making it depend on the creature's actions in battle.
uncertain about giving the more sucessful player another advantage. on one hand the exp system would imho encourage people to play more offensively to get more upgraded creatures. on the other hand, the "less sucessful" player who fights a difficult battle looses a lot of creatures and a lot of creature exp that goes with the creatures. maybe what the system encourages is fighting large battles with minimum losses. possibility to upgrade your creatures after battle might be a compensation for lost creatures, but it surely makes the pre-combat estimation of losses vs exp more critical.
considering the last point, maybe the exp should be added to the stack after the battle, not instantly when the damage is done. this way the exp would really be a compensation for a hard battle and might stimulate more agressive and faster games (unless you loose the entire stack). it would be more like creatures in the stack getting credit for how heroic the stack was rather than estimation of their fighting skill.
m77:
hero getting more experience in commanding a specific creature is imho not a bad idea in itself, but i would see it as the leadership skill of the hero rather than rank of nobility earned in battle. it sounds more like hero specialization in commanding some specific types of creatures to me.
it made me think of another problem, though. what if you fought a large battle and all you had left was 1 imp. would the imp be able to upgrade to devil right away or share it's experience with freshly recruited imps that are added to the same stack? imho it would be possible to allow both those possibilities, but it might be somewhat illogical. i might be too prudent here, but i would limit the exp gained by a stack so that the max exp the stack can hold is the exp that is needed to upgrade the whole stack once.
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i feel that the more unique the towns feel, the better (except that it creates more balancing problems). i absolutely liked the difference between skeleton hording with necro and demon hording with inferno in homm3, although the difference might seem minor at first glance. imho the way creatures in a town type can be upgraded can add a lot of uniqueness.
this may be a somewhat radical idea, but imho a theoretical possibility is to view a large part of many creature lineups as upgrades of an imp or peasant type of creature (well, i guess creature exp might be utilized with a less radical upgrade tree, but imho the radical way has a certain beauty).
this is not a creature lineup thread, so i'm not really trying to come up with full lineups, but i'm rather trying to show how the differences in uprading might make towns more different.
i appologize in advance for my relative incompetence in the attitude and the way certain religious groups see spiritual development of a personality.
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smuheron
Tavern Dweller
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posted May 30, 2004 08:13 PM |
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Yeah, I would love creature that can evolve into another one by getting neccesary experience. I think it should apply only to a high level units. Also, I think that average experience calculation should apply only to those creatures. To limit processing and memory problems each creature would get, by dafault, additional attack or defence. For example, Behemot will get +1 attack and Hydra will get +1 defence... of course if they exist in the new serial (btw, I'll kill somebody if they don't).
On my oppinion, experience should depend on how manu creatures, calculated in health, crature stack killed in a battle.
This is a great and a very important topic that can bring, as you sad, lots of fun for hours.
As a programmer I can say this scenario won't overload PC memory if planned carrefully.
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Marelt_Ekiran
Promising
Famous Hero
Watcher of All
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posted May 30, 2004 08:32 PM |
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Pokemon, anyone?
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Perception is everything.
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gerdash
Responsible
Famous Hero
from the Animated Peace
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posted May 31, 2004 08:15 AM |
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smuheron:
in my opinion the calculation would be stack-based most of the time.
if you talk about having to plan it carefully not to overload pc memory, you seem to have a different view of calculating creature experience.
maybe you could explain your point of view?
Moderator's note:This topic has been closed, as it refers to an older version of the game. To discuss Heroes 3, please go to Library Of Enlightenment, to discuss Heroes 4, please go to War Room Of Axeoth, to discuss Heroes 5, go to Temple Of Ashan.
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