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| Thread: Anti-Christ?!? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · NEXT» |
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USAtheist
Hired Hero
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posted March 31, 2004 08:23 AM |
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Anti-Christ?!?
I think the WOG expansion is a tremendous effort adn the developers should be commended for that effort.
However...
Some of the things included just make no sense and the included campaigns are some of the worst attempts at sceanrio writing I have ever witnessed.
Amongst your new 8th level creatures you have the "Anti-christ" for the Inferno. This is stupid. Why would an Antichrist exist on a world where there is NO CHRIST?!? FOr residents of Erathia to call themselves "Antichrist" would be like ME(here on earth) calling myself the "Anti-snoggwoggler". The first question someone should have would be "What's a christ and why are you against it?".
The term "Antichrist" does not denote a generic embodment of evil. The AC is a specific entity whose sole reason for (alleged)existence is/will be to challenge the Christ. it is part of christian mythology and unique to THAT belief system.
There are about a zillion demonic creature names you could use but this one makes no more sense than including "Jesus Christ" as the 8th level Castle creature. I realize gogs adn magogs and such are also mentioned in the Bible but these can be rationalised as generic types of demons.
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"If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities." - Voltaire
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fnord
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted March 31, 2004 09:13 AM |
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Quote:
I think the WOG expansion is a tremendous effort adn the developers should be commended for that effort.
However...
Some of the things included just make no sense and the included campaigns are some of the worst attempts at sceanrio writing I have ever witnessed.
Amongst your new 8th level creatures you have the "Anti-christ" for the Inferno. This is stupid. Why would an Antichrist exist on a world where there is NO CHRIST?!? FOr residents of Erathia to call themselves "Antichrist" would be like ME(here on earth) calling myself the "Anti-snoggwoggler". The first question someone should have would be "What's a christ and why are you against it?".
The term "Antichrist" does not denote a generic embodment of evil. The AC is a specific entity whose sole reason for (alleged)existence is/will be to challenge the Christ. it is part of christian mythology and unique to THAT belief system.
There are about a zillion demonic creature names you could use but this one makes no more sense than including "Jesus Christ" as the 8th level Castle creature. I realize gogs adn magogs and such are also mentioned in the Bible but these can be rationalised as generic types of demons.
The decision for 8th level creature names was made a long time ago, even before I joined the WoG team.
We recently discussed the possibility of changing one or two names that may have not been the best choices, but it was decided that they were now part of WoG, and although a few people may object to them, the majority accept them and are used to them.
Since names don't affect the game mechanics (and thus no need to change them to correct game balance), they're being left as is. If you dislike these or any other monster names in the game, you can change them with a simple ERM script.
Try the following (put it into a timed event in a map or in a wogify script), substituting whatever names you prefer:
ZVSE
!#VRz98:S^Devil King^; [singular name]
!#VRz99:S^Devil Kings^; [plural name]
!#UN:G1/153/0/99; [Set singular name to z98]
!#UN:G1/153/1/99; [Set plural name to z99]
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Gangrail
Promising
Famous Hero
Dead Man
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posted April 16, 2004 07:54 AM |
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Angels and Devils are Christian Mythology as well aren't they? If you want to be picky there is only 1 Devil so why did 3D0 decide to use the name Devil? Answer is it is just a game. It is to be played not to be used to give a lesson in mythology.
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Shirastro
Famous Hero
Happy happy joy joy
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posted April 16, 2004 08:41 AM |
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Angels and Devils are not originaly from christian mytology. Bible existed much before Jesus Christ.
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And now to the next post.
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USAtheist
Hired Hero
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posted April 16, 2004 07:06 PM |
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Quote:
Angels and Devils are Christian Mythology as well aren't they? If you want to be picky there is only 1 Devil so why did 3D0 decide to use the name Devil? Answer is it is just a game. It is to be played not to be used to give a lesson in mythology.
1)Angels and devils(and demons etc.) predate christianity(as was noted in the previous reply). but that is irrelevent. Common usage of these words applies to feathery-winged do-gooders and leathery-winged evil minions, regardless of mythological source. ANgels and demons figure prominently in fantasy fiction adn games.
"Anti-christ" however only has one signifigant usage/definition: THat of the ultimate embodient of evil who shall oppose Christ in the armageddon, according to christian mythology.
2)There is not just one devil. Most religions have some sort of "devil(s)" who are ultimately out to decieve and harm mankind. "Devils" are featured in everything from comic-book mythos to fantasy fiction.
"Anti-christs"(note the plural) do not enjoy such usage. The Christ is a very specific figure that is exclusive to one particular mythos/religion. Having a bunch of anti-christs in HOMM makes no more sense than having a bunch of "Anti-Paul Bunyans" or "Anti-Spidermans".
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"If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities." - Voltaire
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Greek_god_su...
Famous Hero
Bringer Of Light
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posted April 18, 2004 06:49 PM |
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There was also only one minotaur and one medusa and one cerberus etc in ancient mythologies, but of course this has nothing to do with wog.
However, I see your point USAtheist and agree with you that anti-christ is kind of strange concept in a world without Jesus Christ.
But I´m not complaining, for me it´s the same cause I use those lvl8 very seldom.
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After all, marriage and murder are not too different - one ends your life and the other is a crime
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regnus_khan
Responsible
Supreme Hero
[ Peacekeeper of Equilibris ]
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posted April 18, 2004 07:25 PM |
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fnord
I suggest you renaming them into "FALLEN ANGELS" or so 
P.S. How to change the name of this creature via Script Editor into Fallen Angel?
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USAtheist
Hired Hero
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posted April 18, 2004 11:37 PM |
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Quote:
There was also only one minotaur and one medusa and one cerberus etc in ancient mythologies, but of course this has nothing to do with wog.
However, I see your point USAtheist and agree with you that anti-christ is kind of strange concept in a world without Jesus Christ.
But I´m not complaining, for me it´s the same cause I use those lvl8 very seldom.
Yes but common usage(in fantasy circles anyway) has minotaurs, medusae etc. as whole species/races. I would object to THIS also if the mino's were called "Anti-matadors" and no matadors existed in the HoMM world.
Don't get me wrong...this one quibble is not all-important by itself but when taken alongside all the other wonky stuff("Ghost behemoths"?!? "Blood Dragons"? Seems like these creature choices were dictated by the artistic limitations more than anything)...
This could be a fantastic expansion if it were polished up a bit.
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"If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities." - Voltaire
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Greek_god_su...
Famous Hero
Bringer Of Light
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posted April 19, 2004 08:59 PM |
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Quote:
How to change the name of this creature via Script Editor into Fallen Angel?
There is already an answer for that question, Regnus.
Quote:
ZVSE
!#VRz98:S^Devil King^; [singular name]
!#VRz99:S^Devil Kings^; [plural name]
!#UN:G1/153/0/99; [Set singular name to z98]
!#UN:G1/153/1/99; [Set plural name to z99]
Btw, shouldn´t it be:
!#UN:G1/153/0/98; [Set singular name to z98]
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After all, marriage and murder are not too different - one ends your life and the other is a crime
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fnord
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted April 20, 2004 01:47 AM |
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Quote:
Quote:
How to change the name of this creature via Script Editor into Fallen Angel?
There is already an answer for that question, Regnus.
Quote:
ZVSE
!#VRz98:S^Devil King^; [singular name]
!#VRz99:S^Devil Kings^; [plural name]
!#UN:G1/153/0/99; [Set singular name to z98]
!#UN:G1/153/1/99; [Set plural name to z99]
Btw, shouldn´t it be:
!#UN:G1/153/0/98; [Set singular name to z98]
Yes you're right. Thanks. My mistake.
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fnord
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted April 20, 2004 01:56 AM |
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Quote:
Don't get me wrong...this one quibble is not all-important by itself but when taken alongside all the other wonky stuff("Ghost behemoths"?!? "Blood Dragons"? Seems like these creature choices were dictated by the artistic limitations more than anything)...
Sure, artistic limitations do limit choices sometimes, but what's "wonky" about Ghost Behemoths and Blood Dragons?
I think both creatures are as interesting as any of the level 8s (and more than most in fact) and the names fit too. We have Behemoths, Ancient Behemoths and...now something even older than "ancient" something so old it's hard to tell if it's even alive.. a ghost Behemoth...
Well, I like it, anyway. :-)
As the Blood Dragons are a logical necromantic extension of Bone/Ghost Dragons -- they need the blood of the living to feed their soulless form...just like Vampires do.
So what's your quibble exactly?
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USAtheist
Hired Hero
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posted April 20, 2004 08:47 AM |
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Quote:
Quote:
Don't get me wrong...this one quibble is not all-important by itself but when taken alongside all the other wonky stuff("Ghost behemoths"?!? "Blood Dragons"? Seems like these creature choices were dictated by the artistic limitations more than anything)...
Sure, artistic limitations do limit choices sometimes, but what's "wonky" about Ghost Behemoths and Blood Dragons?
I think both creatures are as interesting as any of the level 8s (and more than most in fact) and the names fit too. We have Behemoths, Ancient Behemoths and...now something even older than "ancient" something so old it's hard to tell if it's even alive.. a ghost Behemoth...
Well, I like it, anyway. :-)
"Ghost" does not imply "aged", merely a particular state of undeath. And besides the "ancient" was a dumb idea for the upgraded behemoth anyways. I was there when the guys from 3DO were soliciting names for creature/unit upgrades on the 3dO forums and I was cringing as kids were suggesting "wolf RAIDERS" and the like and cringing TWICE when 3DO said "Yeah! THat sounds cool!" And to think, I did not give them "Warg riders" as an idea for the wolfrider upgrade because I thought it was too obvious *rollseyes*.
#DO did not want a bunch of upgrasded creatures to have the prefix "Greater"("Greater Minotaur", Greater Vampire" etc.) adn I can kind of see where they were coming from but they did something far worse by using nonsensical "Kings", "Chieftains" and "LOrds" in every other upgrade name. A KING is a singular ruler over an entire kingdom. A minotaur king would be a ruler of the minotaur kindred. How in the hell does some Warlock end up gathering 1,000's of "Minotaur kings" or hundreds of "cyclops kings" to serve as fodder in his army?!?
Back on topic, the "Ancient Behemoth" would have been better as the "Gargantuan Behemoth"(or simply "Gargantuan") or any of doens of other names because the word "Ancient" implies a unique specimen...something that existed far longer than it should have. Something from a bygone age.
"Ghost Behemoths" not only sound like a Necropolis creature but they do not fit well with the theme of the Stronghold, which is non-undead, savage/barbaric creatures.
Quote:
As the Blood Dragons are a logical necromantic extension of Bone/Ghost Dragons -- they need the blood of the living to feed their soulless form...just like Vampires do.
Not logical I'm afraid. For one, they are HUGE. It would stand to reason that such a large creature would only be able to get the blood sustenence it needs from OTHER huge creatures(I can't see them biting the necks of Pikemen or somesuch) such as Black Dragons or Behemoths.
Blood dragons are not the worst idea but there are better ideas found within the heroic fantasy genre( a Dracoliche with an area effect aging or an aura of "Sorrow" as per the spell or even the ability to cast "Inferno" or somesuch for example,A "Grim Reaper" would be another possibility)
Quote:
So what's your quibble exactly?
See above. It's just that I come across so many fantasy games (RPG and Strategy) wherein not much attention is paid to the details of the genre and we end up getting things that don't make sense or are logically incosistent or not reflective of the Sword and Sorcery genre overall.
And these SAME people complain when 3DO annouces they will include an optional town in an expansion with high tech/sci-fi elements which IS consitent with modern heroic fantasy(and we get saddled with crap like the "Conflux" instead)!
To be fair, much of what 3DO/the developers themselves incluided in HoMM 3 was as bad or worse than the stuff in WOG and HoMM 5 looks like it will be even worse than HoMM 4!
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"If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities." - Voltaire
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Brian_the_Fist
Hired Hero
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posted May 20, 2004 06:47 AM |
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Being true to Might & Magic
Personally, I would like the creatures named according to the existing Might & Magic Universe. Already in Might & Magic 2 there where "Devil Kings". I'd vote for that name.
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Bring out number weight & measure in a year of dearth.
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Nekross
Tavern Dweller
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posted May 30, 2004 01:37 AM |
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woao..what a discussion!!!
but there is a problem, usatheist...the way u keep your arguments seems like u r not happy with the names of WOG...not HEROES IN GENERAL...
-kings, queens, ancients, chieftains, etc....this names are from heroes since the beginning, and u talk about blood dragons?
-minotaurs, medusas, hydras...there are only one in the myth, but there are in races in HEROES since the beginning too!!!
i´m with u about all u say but u dont have to put the designers of wog in the guilty´s chair...there are other guilties...
and about antichrist i tell u this:
human race(in the game) represents the middle ages so if jesus christ exists in that world(that could be ours in past) he already is dead... :-)
but i tell u more...i think that they could create an unit called christ to resolve this problem :-)
i promess u this...if i learn enough to make objects, monsters, etc i would make a christ by myself...:-)
r u satisfied?
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Nekross King of Abyss
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USAtheist
Hired Hero
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posted May 30, 2004 03:57 AM |
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Quote:
woao..what a discussion!!!
but there is a problem, usatheist...the way u keep your arguments seems like u r not happy with the names of WOG...not HEROES IN GENERAL...
No. I am dissatisfied with BOTH the original HoMM conventions AND WoG's creature names.
Quote:
-kings, queens, ancients, chieftains, etc....this names are from heroes since the beginning, and u talk about blood dragons?
I gather from reading your reply that english is not your primary language so I can understand that things I said may have gotten lost or misconstrued but my contentions with the WOG creature upgrades are entirely seperate from my contentions with the Heroes III original creature names. I was not taking the WoG team to task over 3DO's mishaps.
Quote:
-minotaurs, medusas, hydras...there are only one in the myth, but there are in races in HEROES since the beginning too!!!
Agreed. I already adressed this in my earlier posts. There is precedent for these mythological creatures being considered entier species/races in fantasy(going back at least as far as D&D). However there is NO such precedent for the existence of thousands of "Kings" of a given species nor does this make any sense. That is like having 10,000 kings of England or 5,000 US presidents or 500 chieftains of a certain tribe.
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i´m with u about all u say but u dont have to put the designers of wog in the guilty´s chair...there are other guilties...
Again, I said much the same thing already in my previous posts. I do not blame WOG for the Kings, chieftains, etc. that was 3DO's nonsense but there is no good excuse for the "Anti-Christ" as a creature upgrade as the very name implies a singular entitya dn what's more it implies a singular entity whose sole purpose for existing is to oppose another singular entity which does not even exist in the Heroes mythos!
Quote:
and about antichrist i tell u this:
human race(in the game) represents the middle ages so if jesus christ exists in that world(that could be ours in past) he already is dead... :-)
No. You are incorrect here. The genre of heroic fantasy is certainly inspired by and takes many of it's convetions from pre-industrial and medeivel Europe but these worlds are USUALLY NOT part of our Earth and the world of Erathia is likewise not of our Earth. It can best be characterised as a world/planet in some other dimension that evolved under different conditions than our own(the existence of magic and a presumed lack of the components necessary for certain technological devlopements).
Now I have absolutely no problem with elements of christian mythology being present in ANY fantasy game(angels, gogs adn such) but when you start dragging specific characters like "Jesus" or "Moses" or "The anti-christ" into HoMM and then making them creature upgrades(so that we have stacks of 10,000 Jesuses or Anti-christs or whatever) this is wrong on so many levels. First and foremost it smacks of proselytisation and secondly it is illogical.
Quote:
but i tell u more...i think that they could create an unit called christ to resolve this problem :-)
i promess u this...if i learn enough to make objects, monsters, etc i would make a christ by myself...:-)
r u satisfied?
No and if you want to command hundreds of Jesuses into battle then that is your business. My criticisms are merely offered as a means of making WoG more polished and logically consistent from a design standpoint and therefore more appealing to the HoMM community at large.
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"If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities." - Voltaire
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nekross
Tavern Dweller
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posted May 30, 2004 04:41 AM |
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hey dont be like that...i told u i´m with u in all u say...
i dont like to have 100 kings in my army, nor 10 antichrist, but what should we do? my best idea is to learn how to change those names(not only in a map, but in the game)...
about my english...i´m sorry, u r right, i´m cuban(still living in cuba), but i didn´t find a site like this in spanish...i speak little english but the forums help me a lot(about english and about heroes)...i hope someday nobody could notice that i speak a terrible english :-(
in fact, could u help me? what is the meaning of lol? i see it a lot and still dont know what they say...
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Nekross King of Abyss
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Orion
Known Hero
Dark God of Ordered Chaos
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posted May 30, 2004 07:37 AM |
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LOL means laughing out loud
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Though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death,
I will fear no evil, for it bends to my will
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USAtheist
Hired Hero
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posted May 30, 2004 09:54 AM |
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Quote:
hey dont be like that...i told u i´m with u in all u say...
i dont like to have 100 kings in my army, nor 10 antichrist, but what should we do? my best idea is to learn how to change those names(not only in a map, but in the game)...
about my english...i´m sorry, u r right, i´m cuban(still living in cuba), but i didn´t find a site like this in spanish...i speak little english but the forums help me a lot(about english and about heroes)...i hope someday nobody could notice that i speak a terrible english :-(
in fact, could u help me? what is the meaning of lol? i see it a lot and still dont know what they say...
I was not put off by anything you said and I apologise if my post sounded like I was. I do not use "smileys" very often so I guess it is easy to misread me(you are not the first person to think I was getting bent out of shape over trivial discussions).
About your english: It is not bad at all for someone whose native language is something else. I admire anyone who is able to communicate in more than one language(I am not. I sometimes sit in front of my television for hours watching spanish or french speaking channels trying to see how much I can pick up. I do not recommend this method to anyone trying to learn another language).
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"If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities." - Voltaire
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Muttley
Adventuring Hero
the eternal survivor
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posted November 11, 2004 02:08 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
-minotaurs, medusas, hydras...there are only one in the myth, but there are in races in HEROES since the beginning too!!!
Agreed. I already adressed this in my earlier posts. There is precedent for these mythological creatures being considered entier species/races in fantasy(going back at least as far as D&D). However there is NO such precedent for the existence of thousands of "Kings" of a given species nor does this make any sense. That is like having 10,000 kings of England or 5,000 US presidents or 500 chieftains of a certain tribe.
There is a way for the "kings" to be logical. In the old times the greek lived in many small states, like townstates (I don't know the correct name, and I haven't got a dictionary by me, so the word can be incorrect), and every such townstate had its own leader. So it is imaginable that the minotaurs live in such groups and each group has its own king.
Quote:
Quote:
and about antichrist i tell u this:
human race(in the game) represents the middle ages so if jesus christ exists in that world(that could be ours in past) he already is dead... :-)
Now I have absolutely no problem with elements of christian mythology being present in ANY fantasy game(angels, gogs adn such) but when you start dragging specific characters like "Jesus" or "Moses" or "The anti-christ" into HoMM and then making them creature upgrades(so that we have stacks of 10,000 Jesuses or Anti-christs or whatever) this is wrong on so many levels. First and foremost it smacks of proselytisation and secondly it is illogical.
To Nekross: The christian "myth" says that Jesus Christ lives!
I agree with USAtheist's opinion, that Anti-Christs as creatures is nonsense. Why? Because the christian "myth" doesn't allow to be many Anti-Christ, while the greek myth allows to be many minotaurs(if one could be born, why couldn't be born more?), titans(they are beings like the gods, and gods marry, have children, so can be the titans). Medusas, and hydras are the creations of some great power, and I think there can be more of them. (Correct me, if the myths says, that there can be only one of them.) Instead of these, Anti-Christ is the opponent of Jesus Christ in the end of times, who will be defeated, and it's over for him. There isn't any way to think there can be more of them.
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In war it doesn't matter who is right, but who is left.
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Malekith
Adventuring Hero
pRr..
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posted November 14, 2004 11:00 PM |
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USAtheist: Make your own creature names if u don't like their names.
I think that names sounds simply and it's fine for biggest part of spectators.
So what if name is "Anti-Christ"? We can change stories of Anti-Christ and Christ. We can create million Christ and Anti-Christ at games?
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