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| Thread: Command Radius... |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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Oldtimer
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posted August 01, 2001 11:07 PM |
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Command Radius...
It seems now that heroes are in battle, they can only influence creatures within their command radius(I suspect it will be a skill under the tactics major skill). Creatures will only get the hero bonuses if the stay close to the hero.
This makes combat strategy much more complex.
If you let you creatures wander to far away they loose morale, luck, attack and defence. This makes them more vulnerable. If they stay close the hero will be in mortal danger. Many new choices.
Question: How do you think you are going to fight using the new combat conditions?
I think I will use a defensive wall of infantry while I work my hero forward to help influence my air and fast shock troops. Or Have a magic hero with my ranged troops and a combat hero leading the charge.
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Ichon
Responsible
Famous Hero
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posted August 02, 2001 01:20 AM |
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multiple heroes
I think I will try to buy or make a bunch of heroes with perhaps low skills, but when you combine them all together... of course probably more main hero also, not just some secondary commanders, but with less movement on the map for armies, having more than 1 main hero is more important. I think a wall of infantry soudns nice, but more difficult than you think- also, have you seen the battlefield map graphics? It seems to be filled with obstacles in diagonal pattern most often, so you can fill a hole with a couple creatures and get hero close to the battle. Flying units might be more valuable in H4 than H3 because of that and striking against heroes. Also- with the way skills are made and command radius- how many heroes command radius can increase the units? Just 1 or multiple? because if multiple- imagine have 3 heroes with archery +30% near your archers stack, they would do almost 90% more damage apparently? Works that way with any stat - luck only +1 on your hero? Buy two more with +1 and suddenly you have +3... Imagine also- let's say you have one really strong unit and your heroes spread out, well you want to try and get a lucky attack with your strong unit so you move all yoru heroes to stand next to it that turn, then next turn you move them out again to cover all troops with the command radius. Still many unkowns, but really I think the best hero to be subcommander is one with att/def skill bonuses and resistance bonuses, mix them in with your regular troops.
It does appear the battle will be much more coherent in the starting phases, with two armies approaching and keeping a battle line. Not like in H3 when you have units darting off every direction to try and isolate other units. Because of the way retaliation works it won't be as valuable to gangbang anymore- still better than nothing perhaps, but the most valuable units will be those without retaliation if there even are any in H4.
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Oldtimer
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posted August 02, 2001 04:43 AM |
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Don't forget about similtaneous attack. Unless your unit has first strike you and the opponant strike at the same time which means that you cannot count on the fact that the retaliation will be from a reduced number of troops.
Does command radius affect heroes? If so having two heroes per army might be the strongest idea so they can cover each other while enhancing the troops.
The question is how will experience be divided. Will only the lead hero get experience or will all heroes get same amount of experience or will the experience be divided?
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Ichon
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posted August 02, 2001 04:52 AM |
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Yeah...
Yes, I was wondering how much other heroes bonus would affect heroes within their own command radius- would be interesting effects there if it did.
As for retaliation- that is why I think units like H3's Ancients, Devils, V-Lords- etc will be even more powerful as the leadoff unit in your strikes.
Experience, that will be a huge factor if it's divided or goes to the lead hero. I'm also a little curious- if a hero dies in battle, does he drop his artifacts on the battle field so perhaps an allied hero next to him picks it up, or an enemy hero can dash over and grab them?
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UnkaHaakon
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happily tilting at windmills
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posted August 02, 2001 10:10 AM |
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And don't forget, certain units like Pikemen will apparently negate the 'first strike' ability. Then there is the whole 'blocking' ability alluded to in one of the interviews. It will make for some interesting tactics that will have to be worked out as we play the game.
As to artifacts, I doubt that if I'm in the middle of a pitched battle, I'd take the time to run over and see what that downed hero had on him. Too much chance of that enemy Level 4 jumping me while distracted. I think sorting out artifacts will probably be post-battle, as it is now, but that's merely a guess.
The way heroes gain experience will probably prove critical to battle tactics. If you get experience for what you DO in battle, it's one thing. If experience is shared evenly, it's another. I've seen it done several ways in other games:
Only the lead hero gets experience
Lead hero gets most of the experience, the rest is divided by the others
All experience is equally shared (either all get full points or the points are divided equally)
Finally, I wonder how experience will be handled for Learning Stones and other power-ups? Any of the above could be used.
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Some people say the glass is half full..Some people say it's half empty... I say "What're you asking me to drink?"
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Ichon
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Famous Hero
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posted August 03, 2001 06:46 AM |
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About the pikemen-
Yes, it's true some units can negate that special, but I wonder how many units will do that? Not many or that special would be useless. Still, that some can and also teh blocking ability alluded will be interesting to learn how it affects the battles.
I think if you could pick up artifacts in battle I might take the risk of losing a hero to try and grab some. Especially for a golden bow or magic resistance type artifact. Besides, if you have more than 2 heroes it's not that large a risk apparently.
As for battle experience, yes we'll have to see how that is done. I think learning stones would have to be applied to everyone though, cause otehrwise you would just split your army into the seperate heroes to gani the full benefits.
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Sha_Men
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Jack-Of-No-Trades
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posted August 03, 2001 11:17 AM |
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Now that command radius and experience both are mentioned...
How about heroes get only experience from their own fighting in hand-to-hand, ranged or magic? I mean heroes only gain when they actually fight themselves. Also heroes would gain experience from creatures fighting in their command radius. When hero commands behemoth that is in his command radius and that beastie kills enemy troops hero will gain experience.
I'm not sure how this new command radius works as someone said that might heroes have to care about this. So does this mean that magic heroes don't have command radius? Or is it a skill like Oldtimer and I talked earlier?
I believe the battle in HoMM IV will have more tactical options as there are new elements such that counterstrike that takes place immediately, first strike and such.
I have though tactic where there are two heroes in the same army. First one is offensive hero that helps attacking troops and second one is defensive hero with magic that enchant troops. I think in the upcoming game it will be vitally important to balance your army how many heroes and what kind of creatures it has. I really like this because in earlier HoMMs you just took those creatures that you got unless you used some special tactic like hit'n'run (and Ichon no, this isn't any attack against hit'n'run)
Still We cannot be sure of anything yet...
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Oldtimer
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posted August 06, 2001 12:43 AM |
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I'm Thinking that the Tactics skill might be the new most important skill to have.
If you have less tactical ability than your opponant, he will get to decide where his troops will initially set up while you are a sitting duck.
His pike men will face your first strike guys, he will be able to set up his command radius defence to suit your troops, the initiative will totally be his and all you will be able to do is react to his dictates.
Will any school of magic be as important?
I'm starting to like the barbarian's chances.
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Ichon
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Famous Hero
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posted August 06, 2001 01:04 AM |
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Tactics vs Magic
It's interesting...
It seems to me that Tactics will be a very important skill, and that magic heroes will have a more difficult time leveling up in it. However, if command radius is true, then the difference will be a barbarian hero with tactics is initially stronger and his units start with the benefits of several spells(stoneskin, maybe haste?, shield, perhaps air shield? bloodlust etc) whereas magic spells will increase unit stats outside of command radius(perhaps very valuable) and also take away enemy unit stats which is always valuable as we know. I think that would mean spell casters still supreme, but it depends, I got the idea from interviews and such so far that might heroes have more to make up for their lack of magic than just tactics in battle- for instance the pathfinding skill I think it is increases map movement just like logistics does now. If magic heroes don't have that available... well, also nobility, not only then att/def/unit speed is here, but luck&morale under 1 skill. Then some of the other things about nobility it seems to be sort of like diplomacy in that heroes with it have more chances of neutral monsters joining and such. Then there are the other skills like estates, apparently magic heroes have more trouble getting some kinds of kingdom bonus skills. I think the final factor will be the offensive damage spells in battles, if magic heroes still have chain lightening, implosion, armegeddon available then they are still more useful than might heroes. Of course, since Stronghold can get all types of heroes... why not building a magic and might hero for it's battles? Then if the magic hero can capture an enemy town and learn some decent spells Stronghold will be very good. I hope they do a little more play testing this time than for H3. Whatever we hear now could change before the game is released.
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Oldtimer
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posted August 06, 2001 01:26 AM |
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We still don't know what the size of the command radius is.
If the tactics or some other skill increases the size of your command radius you will have more creatures benefiting from your might hero for a longer period of time.
Personally I welcome a strong Might Hero. The game is Heroes of Might and Magic not Heros of might and MAGIC. The way the game plays now you could have the most powerful might hero and a moderately powerful magic hero can still beat you.
Might heroes may be helped by the new potions and possible resistance artifacts and/or skills.
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UnkaHaakon
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posted August 06, 2001 10:15 AM |
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Quote:
If the tactics or some other skill increases the size of your command radius you will have more creatures benefiting from your might hero for a longer period of time.
Personally I welcome a strong Might Hero. The game is Heroes of Might and Magic not Heros of might and MAGIC. The way the game plays now you could have the most powerful might hero and a moderately powerful magic hero can still beat you.
I believe Jeff Blattner mentioned in the Gamespot interview that the radius does increase as your Tactics skill goes up. This means that developing Tactics may be more important than ever. As you said, the potions, wands, and staffs now available for purchase will give Might heroes even more of a fighting chance.
Since spell power is no more, I think the balance may swing towards Might. At a guess, one way that spell effects might work is increasing damage/effect for every level of mastery in that school. If the old standbys like Chain Lightning are in the game, they'll probably still be 4th level or higher, which means being master level in that school of magic before you can even learn it.
Having said that, it is possible that some of the spells available to the Academy might be able to produce effects that heighten the command radius of a hero. If so, one can only hope these will be available in potion/wand form, or that artifacts exist to help out.
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Some people say the glass is half full..Some people say it's half empty... I say "What're you asking me to drink?"
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Chariotess
Hired Hero
Ancient Vampire
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posted August 06, 2001 11:34 AM |
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Great quote you have there Unkahaakon.
But about this command radius, is it like that might heroes can have it only or does magic heroes have that too? I think it would be terrible unbalancing if spells are toned down and might heroes get bonuses to creatures. Doesn't that mean might heroes can use those wands, staff and potions too and get even more benefit to their command radius than magic heroes? I love playing with magic heroes but of course it should be balanced that might heroes could be powerful too. Many are saying that Stronghold will be strong but it doesn't have any magic. Isn't going to be too strong? If magicheroes get good spells only later how they can compete with creatures that are more powerful than theirs?
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Oldtimer
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posted August 06, 2001 08:36 PM |
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The question is not will the might heroes be too strong(oh my here comes the mighty barbarian) it's will they be competitive at all. In heroes 3 you had to remake might heroes into magic heroes for any chance at winning with them as main hero. What the designers are saying is that in 3 all heroes became basically the same character late in the game. The new skill and class tree will make each hero unique in the end game so that you must make real strategic choices during the game and model your tactics after how your hero is turning out.
I want to play at least one no magic character and beat a arch mage, just once.
Is it too much to ask?....
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Ichon
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posted August 08, 2001 08:49 PM |
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Counters...
It sounds good for H4, but I don't know if they will manage to balance each town. It's very difficult to make everything different and still able to have each town fight any other town and have a chance to win. Games such as Starcraft are like that since Humans have nukes the Protoss are invulnerable as long as their shields hold, but if the Zerg rush fails, then it's over for the Zerg usually. Or AoK when a civ like Huns just sucks vs Byzantines or Saracens since the units are all counterable. You can also use the example of H3 somewhat when Fortress played Necropolis, sure you might win with Fortress, but it's most powerful unit special is negated, and so the chances are small. Now if even every town can play one other town evenly except one, that would be terrible. Always people would try and choose the one town not counterable. Maybe with less units it' spossible to balance it, but it's so hard.
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Oldtimer
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posted August 09, 2001 07:21 PM |
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I think that balance may be achieved in this new star system of town magic. Each town will probably have special warding or protection type spells against the two enemy towns and also benefits from allied towns. Each town will now have a unique flavor but it should be balanced so you can choose how you want to win a game by picking your starting town and how you develop the hero.
The original question is how do you expect your tactics to be with the fighting heroes and command radius and might vs. magic types. Are you going to develop the defensive units in town or offensive? A little of both or one dedicated brand?
I'm thinking that I will develop 4 hero types Magic/defence, magic/offence, might/defence, might/offence.
Each hero will have 3 creatures with him that reflect his type. Then I will be able to mix and match my armies depending on my immediate goal. Example castle defence get the 2 denfence heroes into the castle. Blitz attack team the two offence heroes together. Looking to fight a hero, magic/d might/o. Exploring,might/d magic/o.etc.
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niteshade
Known Hero
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posted August 09, 2001 10:25 PM |
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I think combat skills will be important for a hero just to keep him alive. It does you no good to be a super powerful mage and tactician if a bunch of ghost dragons can just fly accross the board and kill you on the first turn.
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Ichon
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posted August 09, 2001 11:01 PM |
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Might Offense- Magic Defense
I'd prefer to use might offense since creatures usually kill more HP's than spells with only 2 spells doing more or equal damage to creatures(armegeddon, implosion) Then the best bet is to protect those creatures from offensive spells and keep them alive as long as possible with a defensive magic hero. My ideas for heroes will be as follows...
Scouts with fast travel and good combat skills, imagine early scout wars with 1 hero vs 1 hero fighting it out, cool!
Raiders- hero with good offensive spells and very high morale so the inatiative goes to them. Their job is to penetrate enemy lands and cause as much havoc as possible.
Defenders- Strong kingdom bonus and combat bonus- theri job is to kill enemy raiders and scouts and defend home castle.
Attackers- Strong offensive might&defensive magic hero, almost a replica of defender minus kingdom bonus so that experience can be spent on battle skills.
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LordPaul
Promising
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Crazy Bat Guy.
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posted August 10, 2001 12:13 AM |
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Uhhhh.....
What everyone seems to forget is that even with this command radius the bonus isn't going to be huge. The radius will be like a bonus if they are in range, and if not, it won't effect the battle a lot.
I think the real power of Tactics will be it's subskills. Like Resistance and so on. Then if you are in the radius you are less likely to be bolted by a spell.
The balance will still be in the game. The magic spells are more powerful since it will take them longer to get. No power stats just means you can expect the same damage (large or small) from the spell every time. Doesn't mean it won't hurt!
Having the Tactics skill affect other Heroes is a bad idea. Why not just have 7 Heroes then? They would be invincible!
I think I would use Tactics to either rush with my troops or sit back with my archers (if my Hero has a ranged attack like some do). And I don't think the bonus will be so big that the troops outside of the area are toast. Personally, I think the radius will be 1 for every level of mastery. So a beginner will have a radius of one (makes sense) and a grandmaster will have a radius of 5!
...and remember, the cyclops has a spread ranged attack! Don't group up on the Stronghold!
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Oldtimer
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posted August 10, 2001 01:21 AM |
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It's my understanding that if you are outside the command radius of the hero you do not get the skill bonuses associated with the hero. So you might be able to risk the lvl 4 guy outside but a lvl 1 might be too vulnerable if outside of protection. It also looks like the battle screen is fluid(meaning you can move around and it has no outside boundaries) so if you send your creatures too far afeild they may bolt or change sides(not sure but I heard this was a possibility). So the command radius is probably not going to be 1-5 hexes more likely 5-25 hexes or more depending on skill level.
Scouts have got to be those new heroes with concealment skills. If they are alone they cannot be seen on the map by other players.
Death & Chaos magic probably will be very offensive while Life and Order look to be defensive, Nature maybe alittle of both. I cannot imagine my assassin being a defensive magic user but my cleric will have alot of defense in mind.
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Ichon
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posted August 10, 2001 04:19 AM |
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Concealment skill
My idea about this is that it won't be very powerful at low levels, so not as much use in early scout wars. For example- instead of seeinghim from 8 tiles away, your scouts only see him when 6 tiles away, next levelup 4 tiles, etc... so in the first week it would be hard to get a completely inviisble hero otherwise it seems too strong. Just send down 2-3 invisible hero and take all opponents mines and even town if not suffeciently guarded. Defense type of mindset will be more important in H4 it appears, if you try to swarm opponent you could leave your own back door open, and if armies can't be chained... you will have to be very careful. Still, the weaknes of this is if the guy who makes first strike and takes out 1/6th of your army will probably win... so I see people just leaving entire army in garrison almost except for a few fast or strong creatures for hero to fight battles with. Also maybe a few level 1 scouts, very cheap and still exploring land with almost 0 risk- only bad thing is they can't carry artifacts, but they also won't be carrying them if they meet enemy hero and switch sides... This will be more interesting game right from the get go, I don't see many closed maps for this unless some people just can't stand quick engagement. I hope not though, cause then with a closed map magic is probably better as they then have time to get their spells... well, it remains to be seen if Stronghold can compete in the end game. Of course we are almost all assuming it's very strong in the beginning, I wonder though if it doesn't get really good until training pit is built and some other structures- like it's been said, they are trying to make both towns and heroes almost impossible to build up completely, forcing you to give up somethign for anything you do get. Sounds good if it's pulled off in a balanced way.
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