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Andrelvis
Adventuring Hero
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posted February 18, 2008 07:59 PM |
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And the Swedish have a much better living than the Americans.
It is not enough to simply have everybody looking after their own interests, because there is no balance of power: companies are de facto more powerful than individuals, and that is why they get plenty of their way around; there must be a regulator, the state.
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Moonlith
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
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posted February 18, 2008 08:00 PM |
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And there is a reason why the standard of living in America is higher than in Europe.
I'd dare to challenge that statement.
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And socialism fails. Just look at Sweden and compare it to the US.
Examples?
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Why is HC a bunch of raging Bolsheviks?
Why are you pro-slavery?
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 18, 2008 08:01 PM |
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No, the Swedish are poorer than the Americans.
Of course there has to be a regulator. The state has to break up trusts and monopolies, protect the environment, invest in stuff, and print money. But no more than that.
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I'd dare to challenge that statement.
The per capita income in the US is higher.
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Why are you pro-slavery?
Capitalism isn't slavery.
In capitalism, people work for what they have.
In socialism, people who work for what they have have some of it taken away and given to welfare bums.
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Eccentric Opinion
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Binabik
Responsible
Legendary Hero
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posted February 18, 2008 08:03 PM |
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I agree 100% that healthcare needs a good dose of competition to lower costs. BUT I think many aspects of it should be regulated. And we need to learn from the mistakes of the wrong kind of socialized healthcare - referring to HMOs which have been a disaster IMO.
And what is also important is to break the AMA's self serving monopoly and manipulation of the medical education system which severely limits the number of doctors being trained. Medical schools should NOT be turning away hundreds of students every year who have bachelor and master degrees in biology or chemistry and a 4.0GPA.
Entrance into medical school has as much to do with politics, kissing ***, and knowing what lies to tell at the entrance interview as much as it does about being "qualified". Then when they get their license in arrogance, they make 5-10 times as much money as someone else with a "mere" PhD. I have no problem with someone making lots of money due to normal supply and demand, but I have a BIG problem with it when the supply side is being manipulated.
Drugs and medical equipment are another big area where costs are escalating, but I won’t go there.
To attempt to get back on topic, I have a problem with all this frenzy over healthcare. The reason is that we will end up with a knee-jerk reaction and that isn’t good. I think the solution will take far longer to plan and implement than one presidential administration. It’s extremely complicated and rushing into it is the wrong way to go.
The thing is that politically people always want to hear a candidate offer a solution, and that’s what they are doing. Whether or not its feasible is irrelevant (politically speaking).
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Andrelvis
Adventuring Hero
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posted February 18, 2008 08:03 PM |
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Bolsheviks? I didn't see anyone here say that we shouldn't have capitalism as a system, only that it doesn't work on it's completely "free" form as far as the well faring of the people is concerned, and that it needs some regulation at least.
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No, the Swedish are poorer than the Americans.
You mean Per Capita, I guess? Because in real living conditions of the population, the Swedes are far ahead.
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Moonlith
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
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posted February 18, 2008 08:03 PM |
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Edited by Moonlith at 20:06, 18 Feb 2008.
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Mvaz, Would it sound crazy if I said you're just screaming random statements without any backup or proof?
I'm not a communist, nor am I a capitalist. I shall try to say this as gentle and un-offensive as I can: Businessmen are pigs. They are the representation of egotistical selfisch parasites who view people as TOOLS and exploit anything they can for their own personal gain.
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Why are you pro-slavery?
Capitalism isn't slavery.
In capitalism, people work for what they have.
In socialism, people who work for what they have have some of it taken away and given to welfare bums.
Completely biased and none objective definitions. Sorry, you fail. No other way of putting it.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 18, 2008 08:07 PM |
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Of course an unfettered free market doesn't work. It leads to monopolies that can do anything they want without challenges from competition. And the government needs to protect the environment. But as for the well-being of the actual workers is concerned, as long as there is competition between employers and the workers can actually do something useful, then they have nothing to worry about.
Businessmen aren't pigs. They utilize the labor of their workers for profit. But both sides profit. If the workers didn't like it, they could go work somewhere else. Or sit at home and starve, if you prefer.
When Europe grinds to a halt because it can't compete in the world, you'll see that I was right.
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Eccentric Opinion
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Binabik
Responsible
Legendary Hero
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posted February 18, 2008 08:08 PM |
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And will you guys quit arguing?
I also get very tired of hearing about the healthcare in Sweden or anywhere else. This isn't Sweden, and what works somewhere else will not work here. They are two different places with entirely different situations. Consider that just the government bureaucracy involved in a universal healthcare system in the US would probably be larger than the entire population of Sweden.
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted February 18, 2008 08:13 PM |
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Mvass...sorry to say...but in this current discussion, most of your posts/arguments sound 95% like ZanJerusalem.
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Andrelvis
Adventuring Hero
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posted February 18, 2008 08:14 PM |
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Of course an unfettered free market doesn't work. It leads to monopolies that can do anything they want without challenges from competition. And the government needs to protect the environment. But as for the well-being of the actual workers is concerned, as long as there is competition between employers and the workers can actually do something useful, then they have nothing to worry about.
I would agree, as long as some basics are provided for free for the whole population, essentially health and education. Otherwise a lot of people won't be "competitive" not because they didn't try hard enough, but because their family wealth didn't allow for the necessary education.
Binabik: Should we all just sit quietly, pretending we have the same opinions, then? Although I agree that systems used in other countries do not fit for use everywhere else, it still means that system worked somewhat well there. And really, that is quite a lot.
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Binabik
Responsible
Legendary Hero
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posted February 18, 2008 08:18 PM |
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Binabik: Should we all just sit quietly, pretending we have the same opinion, then?
If all they can do is rapid fire arguments without thinking, and the entire discussion is off-topic, and they don't know what the hell they are talking about half the time, then yes, they should keep their mouth shut and quit spamming the hell out of this thread.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 18, 2008 08:21 PM |
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Mvass...sorry to say...but in this current discussion, most of your posts/arguments sound 95% like ZanJerusalem.
Hmm... Yeah, I guess you're right. I do sound that way. But I feel very strongly about this issue.
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I would agree, as long as some basics are provided for free for the whole population, essentially health and education.
I think that we should have universal health care for children. And of course we should have free public education. It should just be run a lot better than it is now.
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Otherwise a lot of people won't be "competitive" not because they didn't try hard enough, but because their family wealth didn't allow for the necessary education.
I don't quite agree here. Most Chinese workers aren't very well educated, but they're getting jobs from the US.
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Eccentric Opinion
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Andrelvis
Adventuring Hero
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posted February 18, 2008 08:25 PM |
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Probably they don't get paid much though. I didn't mean competitive by possibility of getting a job, but how good a job it would be. And yes, I agree that people should get their jobs and wages depending of their abilities.
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Moonlith
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
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posted February 18, 2008 08:26 PM |
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Edited by Moonlith at 20:26, 18 Feb 2008.
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The way I view it, the capitalistic system in competivity works best, but NOT when it concerns fundamental wellbeing issues, such as food and healthcare. Those need to be regulated to secure quality and ensure it is available to everyone, including those who don't make enough money to actually afford it. That's what human civilisations are built upon: taking care of each other.
Luxery products, no problem with rivalry between such companies.
Any society that or person who disdains either Capitalism or Socialism completely is zealous and biased.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 18, 2008 08:28 PM |
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Then, Andrelvis, we don't disagree that much.
Either something is compettetive, or it is expensive and low-quality.
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Eccentric Opinion
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Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
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posted February 19, 2008 02:26 AM |
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Hmm
First of all there is no system that "works" per say. Infact each country of the world more than one system in place. To say capitalism doesn't "work" only means that you have finally awakened to reality. It is also a reality that communism doesn't work. Neither does socialism. Hello real world.
You really have to ask yourselves what are we trying to do? Isn't it true that we as sovereign nations are trying to help people live a more healthy and successful life? Arguing that Capitalism doesn't "work" makes it sound you have just applied it to all things inherent in a human society. I am not sure what works or doesn't work. But I do know that some people need special consideration. I do know that one system does not fit all. I know that you can barely apply capitalism to a sea-faring economy. I know that you can't apply communism to an economy where competition is a prized commodity. Anywhere people say things like: Good Healthy Spirited Competition is a bad place for communism. I also know that socialism is an impossibility in a region ruled by warlords. These are basic concepts that I don't hear anyone mentioning.
With regard to Europeans not being able to compete with the U.S. I will immediately point to nuclear energy. They are doing just fine and they are indeed global competitors and contributors to global humanitarian causes.
I think the question we need to ask ourselves right now is how we can affect the most positive change in the shortest amount of time. How can we help the most people right this very instant?
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Roses Are Red And So Am I
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 19, 2008 03:27 AM |
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With regard to Europeans not being able to compete with the U.S. I will immediately point to nuclear energy. They are doing just fine and they are indeed global competitors and contributors to global humanitarian causes.
The United States should put more into nuclear energy. But think about it. We are defending Europe. We are paying for them so they can subsidize themselves.
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Eccentric Opinion
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Minion
Legendary Hero
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posted February 19, 2008 03:53 AM |
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Edited by Minion at 04:18, 19 Feb 2008.
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@Mvassilev.
Currently roughly 12% of the U.S. population fall below the federal poverty threshold. There is however some controversy regarding the federal poverty line, arguing that it either understates or overstates the problem of poverty. According to the United Nations, which defines poverty among high-income OECD countries as those earning less than 50% of the median, 17% of Americans lived in poverty between 1999 and 2002, the second highest percentage of any high-income OECD country.
In Sweden, for example, the percentage living in poverty is 6.5%.
And a little about healthcare.
According to the World Health Organisation (WHO) the USA has the most expensive healthcare system in the WORLD. Not only it is expensive, it is not easily accessible. This is a very important factor - what good is food for a starving person if he cannot get it? USA is the only developed country in the world, except for South Africa, that doesn't provide health care for all of its citizens.
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted February 19, 2008 08:08 AM |
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It is fantasy that a company will pay any more then it absolutely has to, and that prices will fall when cost of production falls. As it is right now the wages that a 'minimum' wage person makes is equal to what they made in 1968 (about, counting inflation). Yet prices have continued to increase beyond what the said inflation of minimum wage would account for.
Also, you are telling me that prices have went down equal to what companies have saved by outsourcing (for pennies on the dollar) and tax breaks for doing so? Sorry, they have not.
I am one of the nicest people in the world. I have recently started my own business. However, if I was told...: Oh you can legally hire these 10 people for 1 dollar an hour, or this one person for $10 dollars an hour, which do you want...I don't care if that 1 person is the best/fastest/brightest ect I would go for the 10 every time. I don't even think somebody like Mother Terresa would do any different. Heck its better to give 10 people a job..isn't it?
Any company would do the same. There are two reasons why they dont. 1) It's illegal. 2) there is some competition for employees (who know they have to make x ammount of dollars and can negotiate from there).
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Message received.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 19, 2008 02:00 PM |
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Yes, Minion, but you have to consider that in the US the median is higher than in Sweden.
And I'm not saying that the US's health care system is perfect. I'm not even saying that it's good. But it's bad because it's not capitalistic enough, not because it's too capitalistic.
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It is fantasy that a company will pay any more then it absolutely has to, and that prices will fall when cost of production falls.
Nonsense. Just nonsense. Once the overhead costs will drop, the companies will lower costs of their products. Why? Well, think about it.
Companies A, B, and C make an identical product for $10 and sell it for $16, thus making a $6 dollar profit.
Now imagine that the cost of production drops to $4. Now Companies A, B, and C make a product for $4 and sell it for $16, thus making a $12 dollar profit.
But the process doesn't stop here. Company C thinks, "Well, if I cut down on my profits per product, I can make a greater profit overall." So Company C cuts the cost of the product to $9 dollars. Now it only makes a $5 dollar profit. But, all of the people that used to buy the product from companies A and B will now buy Company C's product, so, even though the profit per product dropped, the amount of sales tripled, so Company C comes out ahead. Companies A and B have to drop costs or raise the quality of their products or both or go out of business.
This is how cuts in production costs are passed on to the consumer.
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I don't care if that 1 person is the best/fastest/brightest ect I would go for the 10 every time.
Hmm... depends on what the job is. If I were looking for a heart surgeon, I'd rather hire an expensive heart surgeon than ten orange pickers who apply for the job.
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Eccentric Opinion
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