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OmegaDestroyer
Hero of Order
Fox or Chicken?
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posted June 02, 2008 07:04 PM |
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Yeah, because the Democrats have been so effective with their "100 days" and inability to actually have a plan other than "we oppose the President except when it's not beneficial to do so."
And what difference does it make how much of a value the Republicans gave to the Michigan and Florida votes? The Republican party isn't the one to use such an inane system of determining the nomination.
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The giant has awakened
You drink my blood and drown
Wrath and raving I will not stop
You'll never take me down
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Peacemaker
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Peacemaker = double entendre
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posted June 02, 2008 08:15 PM |
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Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
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posted June 03, 2008 02:48 AM |
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Playing God Is Easy
The democratic kingpins ushered an edic to hand Obama votes from Florida and Michigan that he never received. There is nothing democratic about that. A person's vote is a person's vote. This is a core principal we base our system of governingand entire way of life on.
If Hillary stays in the race and continues on to the general election disregarding the democratic nomination of Obama then I will still vote for her. If she drops out and supports Obama then I will still vote for the democratic candidate. And I will still change my party affiliation after voting to bring the troops home in this election.
A most serious agregious act of voter disregard has taken place at the highest level of the democratic party. That's what happened on May 31st. That's more serious than anything the Republicans have ever done. A fundamental act of abuse of power has openly and blatantly taken place and I refuse to be party to it.
But before anything else can happen, the troops must come home.
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Roses Are Red And So Am I
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 03, 2008 02:52 AM |
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Consis, you miss one very important point: Michigan and Florida broke the rules. Yes, the rules are stupid, and it may be somewhat unfair to disenfrachise the voters. But they have to follow the rules. Maybe next time they'll put moving the primary date to a referendum.
But here's what worries me. Michigan and Florida are both swing states. After being treated that way, would it be too much for them to go Republican?
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Eccentric Opinion
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OmegaDestroyer
Hero of Order
Fox or Chicken?
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posted June 03, 2008 03:50 AM |
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I can't even remember the last time Michigan voted for a Republican president, so I doubt you have a lot to fear.
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The giant has awakened
You drink my blood and drown
Wrath and raving I will not stop
You'll never take me down
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 03, 2008 04:00 AM |
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OmegaDestroyer
Hero of Order
Fox or Chicken?
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posted June 03, 2008 04:06 AM |
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That may be, but the Dems still took it. With how the economy and the unpopularity of the war here, I highly doubt McCain will take it. They did a poll with Romney as his running mate, and it hardly did anything for him. Besides, people in my state are idiots. They believe the empty promises that a candidate can fix the economy. If only it were that simple. 
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The giant has awakened
You drink my blood and drown
Wrath and raving I will not stop
You'll never take me down
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 03, 2008 02:53 PM |
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Yeah, but if McCain says something like, "Hey, Michigan, looks like the Dems disenfranchised you!" they might vote for him.
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Eccentric Opinion
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OmegaDestroyer
Hero of Order
Fox or Chicken?
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posted June 03, 2008 06:51 PM |
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All the Democrats have to counter that statement with is "McCain supports the war."
Like it really matters to this state who is elected. We are screwed on so many different levels it's not even funny.
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The giant has awakened
You drink my blood and drown
Wrath and raving I will not stop
You'll never take me down
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Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
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posted June 04, 2008 06:03 AM |
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He Got It
Obama has won the nomination for his party.
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Roses Are RedAnd So Am I
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The_Gootch
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Kneel Before Me Sons of HC!!
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posted June 05, 2008 12:09 AM |
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Reminds me of one of my favorite exchanges
Banzai: Now that's power.
Shenzi: Tell me about it. I can just hear that name and I shudder.
Banzai: Mubama!
Shenzi: Ooooh! Do it again!
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 05, 2008 12:15 AM |
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Now I need to decide if I'm going to support Obama or McCain.
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Eccentric Opinion
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OmegaDestroyer
Hero of Order
Fox or Chicken?
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posted June 05, 2008 01:14 AM |
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It boils down to if you want to hear the empty promises of a young person vs. the empty promises of an old person.
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The giant has awakened
You drink my blood and drown
Wrath and raving I will not stop
You'll never take me down
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 05, 2008 01:39 AM |
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If all of the promises would be empty, then there would be little to choose in between them. The interesting thing is that 75% of their promises are empty. Which 75% makes a big difference.
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Eccentric Opinion
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OmegaDestroyer
Hero of Order
Fox or Chicken?
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posted June 05, 2008 01:57 AM |
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I doubt the differences are that big. "Change" is a great buzz word. Of course there is going to be change, but not the kind people are hoping for. The troops won't be going anywhere for quite some time, the President doesn't control the economy (despite what some people, particularly people from Michigan, think) and the future President won't be able to magically solve our energy woes.
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The giant has awakened
You drink my blood and drown
Wrath and raving I will not stop
You'll never take me down
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Mulroney
Hired Hero
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posted June 05, 2008 08:53 AM |
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Quote:
I doubt the differences are that big. "Change" is a great buzz word. Of course there is going to be change, but not the kind people are hoping for. The troops won't be going anywhere for quite some time, the President doesn't control the economy (despite what some people, particularly people from Michigan, think) and the future President won't be able to magically solve our energy woes.
This sort of naivté is exactly why "progress" has come as far as it has. 100 years ago I'm sure somebody was saying, "Come on, there won't be any REAL change. It's not like women will be allowed to vote or killing babies will become legal."
A lot is riding on this election. Obama is talking pretty big leftist talk, and now if he doesn't deliver he'll be spoiling his chances at a 2nd term. Energy woes might not be fixed, but he can sure try to
1) Monopolize health care in the hands of the government
2) Tax big businesses to the point where they move to somewhere else
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emilsn
Legendary Hero
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posted June 05, 2008 09:43 AM |
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I would vote Obama, it is history, it is democratic, it is black power to a white country 
IMO America need a more democratic point of view for some years now.
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Don't walk behind me; I may not
lead. Don't walk in front of me;
I may not follow. Just walk
beside me and be my friend.
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Binabik
Responsible
Legendary Hero
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posted June 05, 2008 11:44 AM |
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The promises are empty promises because the president doesn't truly have the power to carry out most of them. Most of the things they talk about must be done by the Congress. That's especially true when it comes to domestic issues including the economy.
There are also a lot of issues that are issues in rhetoric only. For example court issues such as abortion. Or issues that realistically the government has very little to do with it at the federal level, such as education.
People will argue that the president appoints federal and Supreme Court judges. Even when the president has a specific agenda this "power to appoint" has very little ultimate influence. I mean come on, Reagan, and two Bush's were all anti-abortionists and appointed a large number of justices over 20 years of presidency, essentially a complete turnover of the Supreme Court. But there has never been a serious threat to Roe v. Wade. I would be very surprised if there was one in the foreseeable future regardless of who is elected.
Reagan was also big on tort reform and was on a crusade to rid the courts of frivolous lawsuits. He appointed hundreds of federal judges with this in mind. Did it really make a difference? It might have caused a slight swing, but if it did, it wasn't noticeable to the average person.
Domestically the President's main power is influence and persuasion. But the power of persuasion only goes so far. Would Obama or McCain have more influence than the Speaker of the House, the Senate Majority Leader, Minority Whip, or even some of the Committee chairs? If you only look at one of them, maybe. But certainly not 2-3 of them combined. There are strong forces within Congress that the President has to answer to....far more so than the other way around. The president only has real influence when he is dealing with a friendly and receptive Congress.
The bottom line is that Congress has far more power than the President. But even they don't hold the ultimate power. People always complain that the politicians don't represent the people. I agree, but only to a point. Congress or the President will go against the wishes of the people, even a majority of the people, but they will never go against the wishes of a LARGE majority of the people.
If you look at all the major issues over the last several decades; civil rights, abortion, women's rights, the environment, and many others, ultimately change happened for one reason and one reason only, because the people were behind it. It takes time, but it happens.
When I look at governmental actions that affect me personally and directly, it's mostly at the local level, the City Council or County Commission. I'm sure there are things at the state and federal level that affect me, but at the higher levels it becomes very vague just what roll, if any, they play in things.
There's the saying that people vote with their pocketbooks. Absolutely that's true. When the economy is good (a rarity in the eyes of the people), people vote for the status quo. When the economy is bad, somebody is getting the boot. People love blaming the government for all their woes. And since people almost always want their lives to be better, they are almost always dissatisfied with the government. That's why you see a very predictable pendulum swinging back and fourth. Whenever there is a change in administration the people feel better and the confidence level goes up. After a while people go "hey, this ain't what we want either", and the pendulum once again swings the other way.
People vote with their pocketbooks because the economy affects them at a personal level. They want the government to make them richer and they have some false idea that the government is actually capable of doing that. Yes, the government can give a nudge in the right direction. But I firmly believe that the government is far more capable of screwing up the economy than it is at making it better.
One thing people tend to forget about is that the economy is always a reflection of the past. It's the sum total of everything that has already happened. I've been watching this stuff a long time and I look at the big picture and long term trends. It's amazing how strongly things from 30-40 years ago still affect the economy.
And going beyond my memory was WW2. That event was so huge it was an anomaly. But I'd go so far as to say that the entire foundation of our current economy is a direct result of that war and some of the policies that followed, such as the GI bill for education and housing. To put the rhetoric of politicians in perspective think about this. The US is the third largest country in the world, with most countries of "the old world" being hundreds or thousands of years old. The US is the third largest country in the world and most of it (i.e. more than half) has been built within a single generation.
So who did all that? The people did that's who. Yes, the government had some affect on it, but ultimately the people are the ones who did it. The people ARE the economy. They always have been and they always will be, it can't be any other way. When the US population has tripled since my parents were born, that's one hell of a demographic. It makes some politition seem like a gnat in comparison.
Hmmm, I've been typing a while, I guess I should come to an abrupt stop even though I never got to a major point I wanted to make
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 05, 2008 03:41 PM |
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An important thing to understand as well is that Congress (unless it has more than a 2/3 majority) can't do much without the President. The only way the federal government can do anything is if the President and Congress agree. This does not necessarily mean that they have to be of the same party (Clinton's welfare reform comes to mind). But look at the Republican Congress in the Clinton years, and the Democratic Congress now. They couldn't do much because they disagreed.
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Eccentric Opinion
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted June 05, 2008 03:46 PM |
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Nice post, binabik.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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