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| Thread: Are we really an “advanced culture”? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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Jebus
Promising
Supreme Hero
TheJester akaJeebs akaJebfoo
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posted September 14, 2005 07:42 PM |
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Are we really an “advanced culture”?
In a world where the air is smog filled, our water sources are polluted and the sun’s UV rays are incredibly dangerous, the question of the “advanced culture” comes up.
I’d like to quote the MATRIX in order to set the mood for what I hope can become a hopeful discussion of where the world is heading…
I'd like to share a...revelation I had, during my time here. It came to me when I tried to...classify your species. I realized that you're not actually mammals. Every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with the surrounding environment but...you humans do not. You move to an area... and you multiply...until every natural resource is consumed. The only way you can survive is to... spread to another area. There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern. Do you know what it is? A virus. Humans beings are a disease, a cancer of this planet...and we ...are the cure. (Agent Smith)
When I first saw this movie, I couldn’t believe how this speech stuck with me… This is really how I feel that today’s society has evolved and I have to admit I have to remorse when I agree with the above statement. To me, this is what we’ve come to. How did we go from mammals who would live off the earth and take what we truly needed without waste, to a society that is so hell bent on mass production but with 2/3rds of our population living in starvation? How can we be so pre-occupied with the all mighty dollar and allow so many to live in poverty? Why do we hunt, fish or exploit other natural resources to the extent that we have supermarkets and shopping malls filled with excess? Our society seems to have turned their noses on traditional ethics, morals and values yet we complain that our youth are out of control and that crime is always rising. We vote for political parties to express our concerns and fight for our rights, but we are helpless to act against the conspiring government and the corporations that run them.
How did we let it come to this? And more importantly, why?
With this thread, I’m inquiring about how all this makes you feel… do you care? Do you feel that today's society is spiralling into a vast abyss where we are all helpless to counter the trend that has been set in motion by our predecessors?? Where did the snowball start, and how do we stop the pending avalanche?
(inspired by a short IM conversation with Conan  )
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"You went over my helmet??"
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Wiseman
Known Hero
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posted September 14, 2005 07:51 PM |
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MAN, n. An animal so lost in rapturous contemplation of what he
thinks he is as to overlook what he indubitably ought to be. His
chief occupation is extermination of other animals and his own
species, which, however, multiplies with such insistent rapidity as to
infest the whole habitable earh and Canada.
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Truth may be out there, but lies are inside your head.
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draco
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted September 14, 2005 10:59 PM |
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We as a race only have 1 possible way out of the problems we have... Space Travel, the Earth is doomed, we need a replacement planet. when we find it we can do things right 
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Conan
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted September 14, 2005 11:04 PM |
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the way I see it, if the sum of mankind's actions where negative, it would have taken end a long time ago.
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Your life as it has been is over. From this time forward, you will service.... us. - Star Trek TNG
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Russ
Promising
Supreme Hero
blah, blah, blah
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posted September 14, 2005 11:14 PM |
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Edited By: Conan on 14 Sep 2005
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Well, we used to have American Indians (I think they are starting to become my most commonly used example) - they placed very high values at being the one with the nature and at respecting it for what it gave them and for what it had. Now they got exterminated (or had their culture taken away from them) and replaced with the modern day Americans who not only **** the Earth up more than anyone else in the world, they also think that it is a good thing and that everyone else should follow their lead. And if someone doesn't - they have their army, and now - they legalized the use their nukes to back it up. I think China is catching up to them really fast as well. Luckily (for the nature), the USSR fell apart and it isn't creating any more "5-year projects" such as the factory polluting the lake Baikal (the deepest freshwater lake in the world, very beautiful, with the water that has some longivity effects due to the unique microorganisms found in the lake).
Somehow the people in Europe realized that they have to try to conserve what they have (especially - Germany with its recycle-everything programs - I really respect that). They also realized that it is NOT a very good idea to do their best to have 20 kids per family in such an overcrowded place. Who knows, maybe the rest of the world will follow their lead and change their values and traditions for the better? And the Earth will get an extra few hundred years as opposed to getting completely ****ed within the next 100 years (the virus carrier eventually dies along with the virus).
[mod]Russ, this is a warning. To quote the CoC:
"Bad language is not allowed at Heroes Community. Vulgar words must be replaced entirely with ***** characters by pressing SHIFT and 8 simultaneously. For example: f*** is not allowed and will be penalized, while **** is allowed."
Please refrain from doing this again or it will result in penalties.
Thank you,
Conan[/mod]
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Vegetarian: Old Indian word for Bad Hunter.
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k1ng
Promising
Famous Hero
of Night Elves
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posted September 14, 2005 11:15 PM |
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wow, this is a unique subject. i get it all and stuff, but if you consider that quote of Agent Smith from Matrix to be a true theory, so, what's the cure exactly? death?
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Jebus
Promising
Supreme Hero
TheJester akaJeebs akaJebfoo
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posted September 15, 2005 01:08 AM |
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a few questions to think about...
Conan,
according to your theory, that the fact that:
humankind beeing the only species (so far) on earth that has managed to push the earth to the brink of exhaustion with it's pattern of evolution...
..... is normal to you?
you don't find it odd that the only mammal on earth who's evolution has directly and severly caused catastrophic irreversible damage to their natural habitat are "humans"?
King,
I don't think death is the answer...
how does "humankind" reverse their present tendency and re-instate the natural balance of earth's cycle?
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"You went over my helmet??"
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terje_the_ma...
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Disciple of Herodotus
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posted September 15, 2005 01:39 AM |
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It's too late to go into details, so I'll use telegraph style:
Earth screwed. 20 years to irreversable damage. Blind, conservative politicians. Other goals. Profit. Avoid unemployment. Higher CO2 emissions. Global warming. Ice caps melt. Sea level raising. More rain. More hurricans. More "extreme weather". --> Bad movie with Kevin Costner. Only without all the sun.
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"Sometimes I think everyone's just pretending to be brave, and none of us really are. Maybe pretending to be brave is how you get brave, I don't know."
- Grenn, A Storm of Swords.
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Conan
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted September 15, 2005 02:41 AM |
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Quote:
Conan,
according to your theory, that the fact that:
humankind beeing the only species (so far) on earth that has managed to push the earth to the brink of exhaustion with it's pattern of evolution...
..... is normal to you?
you don't find it odd that the only mammal on earth who's evolution has directly and severly caused catastrophic irreversible damage to their natural habitat are "humans"?
Odd? no. Special? yes. We are far more intelligent than any mammal so it is normal that we have the possibility of doing such damage. But yet, I don't consider all the damage we have done catastrophic and irreversible (exept some extinct races of animals maybe). And I also don't beleive that we pushed earth to the brink of exhaustion. If I did, I wouldn't want to have kids. We do consume the commodities of earth, yes. We don't know how to live with a good balance, true. But we aren't to far ahead yet. I mean, we haven't even finished earth... We started using wind power and hydro, a sign of better things to come.
I am an optimist, yes.
And whoever mentionned Canada a few post back probably doesn't live here since Canada isn't populated at all. 
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Your life as it has been is over. From this time forward, you will service.... us. - Star Trek TNG
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Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
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posted September 15, 2005 03:17 AM |
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Edited By: Consis on 14 Sep 2005
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Hehehe
Discussions like this make me laugh. The atomic age has come and yet there are still people talking about things like this. It's an old argument which I've noticed is largely centered on what happened to Easter Island. When people discuss things like this, I feel they grossly ignore global efforts to defeat the tragedy which history has shown us. The Kyoto protocol is a good start but not acceptable to this country just yet. Neither does China accept it either. I think it's good to talk about ways to improve raising awareness of the relationship between human beings and the environment from which they came forth.
But regardless of where we go or how much we've learned, there will always be people who don't or won't accept it. It was not long ago when I met a fellow on board an airplane that professed to me that he has never believed that we have set foot on the moon yet. He told he thinks it was all a scam by the govvernment to increase monetary support from the people. I remember thinking how sad I felt for the guy. To think that some people simply may never understand the progress we have made over the years of man/woman kind's history is a sad thought.
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Roses Are Red And So Am I
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Jebus
Promising
Supreme Hero
TheJester akaJeebs akaJebfoo
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posted September 15, 2005 04:25 AM |
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Edited By: Jebus on 14 Sep 2005
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Quote:
To think that some people simply may never understand the progress we have made over the years of man/woman kind's history is a sad thought.
and here I was about to tease my best friend about his naive optimism that I wish I shared when who walks in...
Isn't it ironic how in every discussion you join, you feel the underlying need to turn it into a political debate?
Short of allowing that to happen in a discussion pertainning to man's evolution and the earthly reprocussions it involves, I have to say this....
Do the US school systems brainwash it's students with a blind ignorant faith in it's government?? The more I read your posts, the more I feel that your opinions are not those of a free thinking person, but a "made to love the US" drone that they've removed its eyes from it's head. No, to be more accurate, it's citizens were never given the tools to see reality at all. (hmmm.... troglodytes come to mind )
Have you never read the theories of how the Russian space program was far ahead of the Americans therefor they staged the entire moon "touch down"?? Have you never even contemplated the discrepencies that many have pointed out in the "wouldbe" space shuttle landing?
(or am I going to have to ask you for proof again?)...and PLEASE don't tell me it's cuz the American government and TV said it's true 
Seriously though, how do YOU know?
if you'd like to discuss any of the above mentioned topics I'd ask that you start a new thread (maybe entitled "USA 'A'O'K"!"
...well shame on me... I've gone and spammed my own thread! 
To get back on topic (kinda), asking questions are never a bad thing... this is how we question our decisions and learn from our mistakes. This thread was dedicated to that question. Simply put:"have we, as a society, as a species, made the wrong decisions? Have the sacrifices that we have made up until now, worth these so call technical advances? Was it worth throwing away and destroying so much to gain the life styles and the global problems we are having today? (ok so not so "simply")
Let's also talk about that wonderful "progress" as well...
To Conan,
I agree and plan on having kids myself...
I just hope that I can look them in the eyes and honestly tell them that I think "everything will be ok".
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"You went over my helmet??"
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Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
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posted September 15, 2005 06:48 AM |
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Edited By: Consis on 15 Sep 2005
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Well . . .
I suppose I didn't do a very good job of . . . well I'm not sure exactly.
Sacrifices for technical advances? I'm confused. There is nothing specific being asked. I gave some examples but they were apparently inept. Right, so let me know when you're finished ranting. I was hoping for a discussion on something more specific.
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Roses Are RedAnd So Am I
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TitaniumAlloy
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Professional
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posted September 15, 2005 12:25 PM |
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Quote:
We as a race only have 1 possible way out of the problems we have... Space Travel, the Earth is doomed, we need a replacement planet. when we find it we can do things right
Well, something about "You move to an area... and you multiply...until every natural resource is consumed. The only way you can survive is to... spread to another area." says that that won't help.
Although I dont think we could have made much difference.
The main problems are pollution. This was caused by the industrial age and it has gotten worse with the increasing population, but what did we know? If we had known about global warming back then, I believe we would have taken a different path. But what other paths were there? We have to make it through the rough to get to greater technological advances which can help the environment, and hopefully we get to that stage in time, or we die.
Every generation is a pioneer. No one has gone through this stage before us to go "No you idiot, don't use Lead Petroleum, use solar energy through the hyper transaction beam of photosynthesis! God, you n00b!"
We have to discover new ways to help our cause.
I guess population is the main problem. But what can we do about it, say you can only ever have two children by law? I think that its not the numbers that is the problem, its the numbers of people who aren't helping. Who are blind to the problem and only contribute to it.
Quote:
The Kyoto protocol is a good start but not acceptable to this country just yet.
I think the Kyoto protocol is the first and vital step. Not ready to accept it yet? How long will it be? How many more cities will have to be devastated due to natures wrath? You know my views on this. It may not benefit America economically, but neither does having New Orleans leveled and and a path for godzilla paved through Florida.
If we are to make it through the worst stage as a race, which incidentally happens to be todays children, we need everyone working on a solution. Sounds like a football coach doesn't it.
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John says to live above hell.
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Jebus
Promising
Supreme Hero
TheJester akaJeebs akaJebfoo
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posted September 15, 2005 06:18 PM |
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Edited By: Jebus on 15 Sep 2005
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Consis (Ill try to tone it down..)
can you elaborate on some of the questions you've brought up?
1)I feel they grossly ignore global efforts to defeat the tragedy which history has shown us.
2)I think it's good to talk about ways to improve raising awareness of the relationship between human beings and the environment from which they came forth.
(I think one of the issues that trigger some, like me, is the way you tend to look down on those who "don't understand" or "don't accept"... sometimes just one word can set someone off. To call someone "sad" because they don't believe something? I guess Im the opposite and would have more respect for someone who expresses doubt and wants to see more substantial proof. Where is the proof? do we honestly have any?
You also mentioned the "atomic" age. Is it so sad that people look back on the last 100 years and start wondering if we've made bad choices? and if we did, people need to talk about them to find ways to avoid repeating them.)
I dont feel saddened for those who ask questions, I feel sad for those who follow blindly (in any context).
EDIT:
T-A,
I'd have to agree with you that re-locating after we've screwed this planet over to the point of no return is prolly not the most productive answer.. who's to say we won't just repeat the same mistakes?
So what do we do now?? do we control reproduction?
(doubt that that bill would pass, even if I'd love to license reproduction)
The biggest problem with the freedom to reproduce is that there is no longer natural selection (or even a "circle of life") to contol it. If a species of animal over popullates(?), there may not be enough food to provide for them all. Natural selection would then kick in and the weaker or sicker of that species would die off. What happens to us? ours or other governments come in and try to support those who cannot provide for themselves. Social services (welfare) is a good example of this. If I am free to have as many children as I want (not how many I can provide for) why should anyone else have to support me or my offspring. Should those who fork out the ressources to support these people have a say in how to control this? Should the "dependants" have the same freedom of consumption as the rest who are basically paying for them?
(gotta go... damn... this seems un-organized!)
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"You went over my helmet??"
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Russ
Promising
Supreme Hero
blah, blah, blah
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posted September 15, 2005 06:29 PM |
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Edited By: Russ on 15 Sep 2005
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Quote:
If we had known about global warming back then, I believe we would have taken a different path.
I hate to disappoint you, but we've known about the global warming for quite some time. And most of the damage was done by us KNOWING about it, yet, not willing to sacrifise our personal interests for the well-being of the future of the mankind. I mean: why would a factory spend $10,000,000 on a recycling facility while it can just dump its waste in the lake? Especially in a coutry where you were born and raised with selfish values.
Quote:
I guess population is the main problem. But what can we do about it, say you can only ever have two children by law?
Educate people about family planning and birth control. And, even though this is a very sensitive issue and may sound like a discrimination - do not allow religions to advocate having as many kids as possible and to claim that using the birth control is a sin. This may have worked well 1000-s of years ago when we needed many kids to ensure our survival, but they have to adapt to the modern world with 6 (or is it 7 already?) billion people living in it.
Making a law that states you can only have 1 child did not work well in China. The law was there, but their traditions say that they HAVE to have a son, or it will bring dishonor to their family. Now they have a demographics crisis because many women do abortions when they know they are about to have a daughter. You have to try to get to the real cause of it. Educate people and try to adapt their traditions for the modern world.
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The Kyoto protocol is a good start but not acceptable to this country just yet.
It may not benefit America economically.
You should have ended your phrase here. It won't benefit them. Period. They will never do it.
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Vegetarian: Old Indian word for Bad Hunter.
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Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
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posted September 15, 2005 06:43 PM |
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Well . . .
I wasn't sure what you meant. I define "cultural" progress as being more tolerant of historic differences between warring peoples.
There are different kinds of toleration: environmental, religious, and political. Religious tolerance can be found in examples relating to the evolution of certain christian religions such as Catholics moving toward protestantism and then going further toward something like what the Quakers did. Environmental tolerance can be found in the cultural environmental equilibrium practices of Native American Indians. Political tolerance can be found in today's democratic elections; meaning that the losing party doesn't go to war over the results of the election.
If one considers an "advanced culture" to be one that grows in continuity with its own habitat then I would say we've come a long way. We aren't doing things like crusades, roman conquests, Mongol invasions, nightmarish West Indies business monopolies, or racist-fascist world wars. Today we face the threat of global destruction through our own devices, which is very different from the events of the past. I would say our advancement lies in our ability to comprehend the danger of total global annihilation. This is being more "aware" of the nature of our own existence. How we mold our future depends on the choices we make. Will the world meet its end at the touch of a button? Will we use up all of our planet's resources, then turning us against each other for food and shelter? I think these are important questions for an advanced culture to ask itself in this day and age.
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Roses Are RedAnd So Am I
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Conan
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted September 15, 2005 07:13 PM |
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I'd just like to give an example of what is going on in the present without any jugement on my part.
In New Orléans, the dirty, bacteria-infected water is being pumped back into the lake Pon(something) . Anyways, this is becoming a huge environnemental impact. But what are the other options? Building new water-treatement plants will cost way more than rebuilding N-O, so what choice do they have? When the government makes this kind of dicision, it is made without question. Environnmentalists wanted to talk about this and find a good solution but the governement stomped on them real fast. We heard very little of these talks. In any case, they'll really be in a dump in the future, when they realize the impact of what they are doing to the wilderness around them. They'll be in big doo doo. I would never move back there if I came from N-O. The ecological impacts of that water will be disastrous.
Money is still the running factor here, aside from the fact that they don't know what to do with the water. This is a pure example of how mankind respects nature VS it's money.
And just for the record, I took an example with the US, but it happens everywhere; I don't mean to put the US down here since they are not alone. Heck, it happens in Canada!
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Your life as it has been is over. From this time forward, you will service.... us. - Star Trek TNG
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draco
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted September 15, 2005 10:14 PM |
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Quote:
I'd just like to give an example of what is going on in the present without any jugement on my part.
In New Orléans, the dirty, bacteria-infected water is being pumped back into the lake Pon(something) .
I hadn't even thought of where the water would be sent, I just assumed it would be filtered along the way with a filter like the Devil's Lake one, at least filtered through sand or something to keep out the big stuff.
How do they plan on cleaning the lake/waterfront land??? All the trees will die, the grass will die, on warm days I can only imagine the smell.
mind you whats the alternative? money doesn't grow on trees (made outa trees, but doesnt grow from it) doesn't N-O need a new water treatment plant either way???
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Conan
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted September 16, 2005 02:35 AM |
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in fact, you want to hear something discusting?
It's not filtered to the point that dead bodies are clogging up the pumps! I didn't just make this up, I heard it on the news the other day. Pretty gruesome!
Man, I haden't even thought of the smell either. Hopefully they will pump it back and then filter it before the warm summer days come.
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Your life as it has been is over. From this time forward, you will service.... us. - Star Trek TNG
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Jebus
Promising
Supreme Hero
TheJester akaJeebs akaJebfoo
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posted September 16, 2005 03:29 AM |
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dont' make me ask a MOD to clean up the spam..
there are 2 threads about katrina already...
this one is to point out how we got to katrina....
not about her.
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"You went over my helmet??"
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