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Loknar
Adventuring Hero
Missing Links
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posted January 10, 2006 03:49 AM |
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Edited by Loknar on 9 Jan 2006
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Themes instead of Races
I would suggest to take back the race aspect of the factions. It unnessecarily diminishes the variety of creatures from a given town, making looking all factions very homogenous in themselves (and a bit boring conceptually and visually).
The current H5 dungeon is the worst with the furies and shadow witches, which are essentially the same, topped with the dark raider, which is once again the same on the same animal as the warlock himself. The sylvan war dancer is nothing but an underdog hunter who lost his bow for tatooing himself, while the druid is a hunter who observed a stricter discipline on going to the gym. And i dare not imagine what the inferno troops did to their nightmares (vile, vile kreegans), but the hooves and horns disclose their shameful deeds.
This affects not only the dominant race of the factions, but also the animals (like the hydra, which also has the dinosaur legs). I just hope there will not be a bird town (chicken-roc-phoenix, with the bio chicken upgrade) or a snake town in the expansions, since none of them are present in the current designs.
I want to stress that I find the new design generally exquisite, I like many of the new creatures (succubus, rakshasa, wraith) and find many of the the designs for the known creatures the most appealing so far (druid, devil, lich, dragons, golem, the hysterical angels and some others). I understand that all this is due to a design decision that valued unification higher than variety and that the effect should be a sort of realism. I just think that they sacrificed something that made some of the unique charm of the previous installments, namely that you commanded an army of DIFFERENT creatures - a fantastical collection, and not a realistic one.
It is also noteworthy that while H3 had very few race concepts, MM5-7 (which came out around the same time) towns were populated by distinct races. If you adventure in a town, the realism gained by unification makes playing more immersive, while in a strategy game, you're not troubled with the community life of the towns, so you loose more than you gain by unifing.
And if unification has to be, I would prefer other ways, lke towns that are populated with fantasy creatures from specific cultures, as suggested by others. So, instead of the traditional color palette western dragon lineup, you could throw in a chinese one with big goggling eyes and snakelike body so that they maintain a lot of variety.
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Mad_Hatter
Tavern Dweller
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posted January 10, 2006 06:01 AM |
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You bring up a really good point here. In Heroes III, the only faction that had this 'problem' was really the Castle, and it made sense, sincee they were really just supposed to be humanoid. I actually did a dungeon remake (called the asylum, its written by Cheshire_Cat, but for some reason I cannot sign back in on that name, so I made a new one) because, besides losing the beauty of the original dungeon, i felt that the new dungeon did not have enough variation. I mean, all the units look really cool, but the variety, as you said, is no longer there.
Now, I have fait in Ingval, since they did a great job with etherlords II, but that doesn't mean they are perfect. Really good thinking, posting this on the forums. Hopefully contestants will read this, and rethink all their own creations.
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Vlaad
Admirable
Legendary Hero
ghost of the past
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posted January 10, 2006 02:05 PM |
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Quote:
If you adventure in a town, the realism gained by unification makes playing more immersive, while in a strategy game, you're not troubled with the community life of the towns, so you loose more than you gain by unifing.
Good point, but I prefer the new Dungeon to the old one. I simply cannot immerse into a fantasy world if it looks as if a space circus crashed, as Charles Watkins once put it. Oh, I'm sure there was a background story about it somewhere in the manual - Lord_Woock would know it - but still...
@Mad_Hatter aka Cheshire_Cat:
Quote:
Now, I have fait in Ingval...
You mean Nival, right?  
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Mad_Hatter
Tavern Dweller
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posted January 10, 2006 07:34 PM |
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Heh... whoops. I still can't get used to my brothers keyboard (@ faith*) and Yes, I meant Nival... too much dostoyevsky and Ilf and Petrov. Save me from the Russian Literary Revolution!!!!!!
And I guess the New Dungeon is much more cohesive. And Sure, the old one was a hodge podge, but the beauty of the old one, was you got to control all those pesky enemies you used to fight in ultima and dungeons and dragons way back in the day. In basic Fantasy culture, while those units had no strong background, they all lived in the same place, now someone just took the time to unite them. ANd besides, it looked so purty with all the different units, instead of three dark elves who have just changed their G strings straps. The new Dungeon is more believable as a town, but it also does not have the history of the old one, and personally, I care alot about the visuals; And Diversity, is so important I capitalized it in mid-sentence. Just a couple little points.
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polaris
Promising
Known Hero
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posted January 10, 2006 08:26 PM |
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I agree that racial theming is a less interesting way to do it than previous HOMM games.
But all the Heroes games had themed towns, it's just that race was not ALWAYS the theme. Humans, undead, and demons were racially themed, but the other castles were themed, too. The Fortress and Dungeon were themed by where the creatures lived. The Stronghold and Rampart were themed by philosophy. The Tower's theming was that most of the creatures were created by the wizards or were themselves wizards. A variety of subthemes also brought in more creatures to even out the quantity for all castles. This variety of theming styles made it feel like you were commanding a force of fantasy creatures which were naturally aligned.
Now that everything is racially aligned, it simply won't have that feeling anymore. Forcing everything into racial alignment makes the cohesion feel forced, I think.
edit: proofreading
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miru
Supreme Hero
A leaf in the river of time
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posted January 10, 2006 08:36 PM |
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This is meant as a good thing, making things make more sense. Insead of like creature grouped into a town, they made factions, and gave them towns. These new towns make much more sense.
Quote (roughly translated by me):
The game now shows cause-effect connections, which make it possible to see the origin of the universe. From now on races and creatures appear not according to the principle "each creature - on the pair", but according to the troubles of the development of peace. For example; the traditionally underground town, Dungeon, is now populated by the dark elves, who were separated from their forest-dwelling relatives, after concluding an agreement with the mysterious faceless. In the descriptions of Dungeon units, you will see present a city-state with your principles, whereas in Heroes 3 they simply put in all who could live underground.
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I wish I were employed by a stupendous paragraph, with capitalized English words and expressions.
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Mad_Hatter
Tavern Dweller
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posted January 10, 2006 08:57 PM |
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It's true miru, that they are making it more cohesive, and by giving the teams racil themes, it adds to the motive of the factions. While the older games, as mentioned, relied on ot her themes such as undead and tower etc, that doesn't mean the motives were gone. Even with a town like the fortress, whose main theme could be considered defense and reptilian nature, the team that was created made alot of sense. The gnolls and lizardmen, while not high level, are the sen tient speices of the swamps, and they have felt the need to defend their turf. They drew on the creatures of their realm, learned how to reign them in, and have created a powerful team out of trained inhabitants. While it may not hold the epic proportions of a team like the dark elves, who were kicked out of the above ground for crazy reasons, it still has a nice ring to it, and I was totally fine in believing it.
The stronghold was very similar. A group of hardened and warlike races, who all happened to be somewhat nomadic, banded together to plunder and pillage, and discovered means of taming a couple beasts. Its simple and leaves alot of room for the imagination, because its so flexible. I'm not sure where it is that I read them, (i think maybe on heroesofmightandmagic.com) but there was a really great fan fiction story surrounding the fortress. If you go to HommIII and look under fortress, I'm pretty sure you can find it.
What I'm saying is that the old way was very successful, and in my eyes, lent better to people who wanted to make stories on their own as well. The racial theme is not a bad one nessecarily, but it gives less variety to the looks of a team, and being a student at art college, I greatly appreciate the aesthetics of things. All in all, I'm not sure where I am going with this, but I felt that the old ways needed to be defended.
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polaris
Promising
Known Hero
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posted January 10, 2006 09:16 PM |
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I notice a lot of people hate on the Dungeon because it is just themed by location, but that is not why the Dungeon had a weak theme. The Fortress is also themed by location, but many people love that faction more than any other. There are two main differences between the likability of these two castles is:
1) The Fortress had better aesthetics than the Dungeon (town music, appearance of units, etc)
2) The Fortress was one of the most powerful factions, while the Dungeon was one of the weakest
It is true that weak aesthetics are the result of the town having a weak theme. But the weak theme is not a result of the way the creatures were grouped! It is because the designers failed to capture what all the creatures had in common and accent that. In the Fortresss, everything lived in the swamp and they were tough as nails. Even the Heroes continue the theme. For the Dungeon, everything lives underground and.... that's it- the theme ended there! The units had nothing tying them together other than that they were in the same town.
One thing they could have done is made them the status-ailment town. If evil eyes cast random spells like in Heroes 4 (or the genies in Heroes 3) and the poison effect was moved from the wyvern to the manticore, the theme of the Dungeon would be much more visible. Plus it complements the Warlocks' theme who are supposed to be great spellcasters.
They were already close to being the ailment town but not quite there. Trogs and Dragons had ailment immunities, harpies had a very unique ability (which fits if the faction is all about abilities), medusas could stone and the manticore could paralyze (although this was a non-ability because it didn't match the manticore's role in the Dungeon army). Minotaurs had no ability, but that's okay because every faction needs some solid melee.
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miru
Supreme Hero
A leaf in the river of time
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posted January 11, 2006 02:02 AM |
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I never got the swamp town. In my opinion, to a degree all creatures were the same. They are all balanced so no town is too much better than any other. what I would focus on is one heroe, and get him really good. Fighters suck, and I always got the mage class. I always used the tower town, not because of artifact merchant, more ranged units, the most powerful creature in the game (If blessed), or anything as much as that the had the best mage heroe helping stuff. All the rest was a bonus. My solymr always kicked butt, and if I found that artifact that grants your troops immunity to chain lightning, you were screwed. I did MASSIVE damage to all enemy troops.
I dont know why people liked the swamp town (it was my third least favorite), but for some reason they do. Mabey it's because you can get wyverns on turn one.
Also, usually my posts are shorter than this, so don't call me a hypocryte if I say to please shorten your posts. I hate reading big, long posts.
One of my sayings is that there can be an excuse or argument for everything, you just have to know how to make 'em up good. So that swamp explanation isn't that great.
Aginst your explanation, what is there to defend in the swamps, who wants to take a swamp, how could those idiot lizards rally the beasts if they're so stupid (3 lvl mage guild?!), and if they're just rallied to defend why are they so together and unified? You can answer these questions, but I can find more arguments, and you could find more counter-arguments and it would take forever and be pointless. Don't bother.
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I wish I were employed by a stupendous paragraph, with capitalized English words and expressions.
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Loknar
Adventuring Hero
Missing Links
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posted January 11, 2006 02:04 AM |
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Miru
I don't think that believability can only be achieved by implementing races. On the story side, it's just a matter of literary invention to make the creature combination or town believable, as well as the oppositions to other towns. And while playing a strategy game, it's anyway more the appearance and design (including things as abilities) that decide if the faction has a consistent "feel" to it.
Polaris
As for the Fortress, I'm surprised that it should be that popular. I agree that the H3 Fortress had a convincing theme, but I thought that it wasn't quite well developed. There are wilder fantasies about such creatures around, more magical, more special. The Basilisk looked too much like a oversized plain lizard, Dancing Lights would have been nicer than that Gnoll doggie, and a Baba Yaga with a spring trap riding on an oven with chicken legs would certainly have been more special than that ordinary Gorgon mooh. There are so many interesting fantasies (and also past and present sketches) about mythical creatures that I just don't understand why someone chooses the ordinary above the interesting.
And I confess, my model and all time favourite in Heroes factions is the Sorceress in H2.
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orbvius
Adventuring Hero
Oblivious
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posted January 11, 2006 03:28 AM |
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Well, Dungeon is one of strongest as a mid game town if you play it properly. I do not know about other countries but as for my friends and I, most of us would prefer to use dungeon over fortress (as fortress is hard to use for beginner level). A theme town is always good without too much repetition of the race thing.
Do check out on my Japanese theme town as well 
Something different for a change.
Moderator's note:This topic has been closed, as it refers to an older version of the game. To discuss Heroes 3, please go to Library Of Enlightenment, to discuss Heroes 4, please go to War Room Of Axeoth, to discuss Heroes 5, go to Temple Of Ashan.
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