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| Thread: Spyers & Zoners (When Worlds Collide) |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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LegendMaker
Promising
Famous Hero
The Metal Specialist
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posted January 31, 2006 12:25 AM |
bonus applied. |
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Spyers & Zoners (When Worlds Collide)
Hi, fellow Heroes fans. 
As you all probably know by now, the Msn Zone site will definitely close the Homm3 room tomorrow. 
Hundreds of players have been using this place to play online Heroes games for years (how long exactly ? I'm not an expert of the Zone history, so if someone could please give me the info, I'd be thankfull).
It had quite its glorious moments, most notably related to the famous Tournament Of Honor. Legendary (no pun intended this time) players have graced it with their fighting spirit and highly valuable strategical skills.
It also had its downsides, most infamously the fact that it's been a shelter for hordes of helpless noobs and/or very arrogant people in the last year or so.
Anyways, it will surely be regretted.
As most of you should know by now, although it might have been the most famous, the Zone wasn't the only place on the internet to launch Homm3 games from.
There is another site offering similar possibilities, and contrary to the Zone, this site has no plans to stop supporting Homm3 games. This place is the GameSpy site, a.k.a. GS, a.k.a. just Spy.
Since the Zone's announcement that Homm3 soon wouldn't be supported anymore, a number of players have already moved on to Spy. This was only and hopefully (yes, I do mean it) the first wave of them. Surely quite a lot of regulars of the Zone couldn't make themselves quit their favorite online gaming site until the very last day. This I understand and can even relate to.
However, the end is nigh, now. And all the Zoners who haven't joined GameSpy yet have no other choice than doing so. Or maybe playing exclusively through TCP/IP amongst their circle of friends from now on...
Animosity between concurrents have always existed. Each side must believe its the best to keep on fighting. And, sadly, the easiest way to feel you're the stronger is to make your adversary look weak. Watch out for Coca & Pepsi ; Marvel & DC ; McDo & BurgerKing ; Nike & Adidas ; The Beatles & The Stones ; Pc & Mac... And the list goes on, and on, and on.
Near the very bottom of that list, you will probably notice "Spyers & Zoners". If you need some proof of that check this earlier post of mine (make a Ctrl+F for "Zone invasion", that's the one)and that pathetic spamfest currently staining the Toh part of this forum. 
When I first joined at Spy almost 3 years ago, I had never even heard of the Zone before. It's regular Spyers who told me about it. "Go back to the Zone, where you belong !" was a fairly common way to imply someone was a noob, back then. I've heard so many horror stories about Zoners, I'd assume they were the lowest form of life.
When I became friends with Tigris, he told me he'd heard the exact same horror stories. Only about us Spyers. Because, basically, he'd had the same Heroes background as me. The only difference was that he joined the Zone, while I joined Spy.
Does any of you seriously think it would have been any different if he'd joined Pepsi while I joined Coca-Cola ?! I don't. Neither does Tigris, for all I know. 
Of course, in retrospect its pretty obvious that all those horror stories had nothing to do with the truth. From both sides, these were the result of corporate brainwashing, and nothing else.
Sure, xxxxx is a noob and a ******* to boot. Yes, he's a Zoner. But it's no excuse for amalgam. xxxxx is at least as noobish and as big a ******* as him. And yet, he's a Spyer. The truth is at which site you're used to play has nothing to do with the kind of person you are.
Such stupid way of thinking has earned humanity most of its trouble in both the past and present days.
There are Black ******** and White ********. Jewish ******** and Muslim ********. American ******** and French ********.
In fact, there's ******** the world over.
Thankfully, there also are some nice people in this world. And that holds true at online gaming sites. 
That aside, people aren't all the same. Blacks aren't Whites. Of course, both are equal (please don't get me started, it's a serious thread), but each is unique. The same is very true about Spyers & Zoners.
In the next part of this post, I will try to describe what I now call The Two Main Schools Of Playing Heroes in their uniqueness, in hope that'll give hints of how I hope they could actually benefit from the fusion they are about to live.
Please note that I'm talking about average, typical, standard (whatever you call it) situations in both cases. For instance, sometimes Spyers do games at 200% difficulty. But more often than not, it's 160%.
Also, in the "rules" section, for the sake of clarity, I've typed each element that a rule could forbid instead of naming the rules "No xxx" and such. So, for instance, "HR : No" = "yes, we do apply the "No HR" rule".
Lastly, since I'm obviously more familiar with the Spyers' School than the Zoners', if some of you Zoners could give me precisions, I'd be thankfull.
THE SPYERS' SCHOOL OF PLAYING
Quote:
I'm a spy in the house of love. I know the dream, that you're dreamin' of.
"The Spy" by The Doors
1) Typical settings
Fixed Maps : Discarded.
Random Maps : Standard (3DO regular templates).
Map Size : M or L with or without Underground.
Water Content : Perish the thought !
Monster Strenght : Strong.
Difficulty Level : 160.
Timer : 2 Minutes per turn is the standard.
Number of Players : 2 to 4 (3 is fairly common).
Teams : No.
FFA : Standard.
2) Typical Rules
Q (Quit) : Wanna end up on the **** list ?!
C (Cheat) : Wanna end up on the **** list ?!
HR (Hit & Run) : Of course not.
RR (Red Rush) : Most often forbidden.
DD (Dimension Door) : No.
Fly : No.
Diplo : That depends.
FMG (Fight Misplaced Guards) : What's that ? Lol
Flux : Unfortunately not always banned.
Necro : No problem, play it if you like.
Castle : Sure.
Rules Policy : Final once the game is started.
Reload Policy : Okay for bad data transfers.
Restart Policy : If someone is blocked and/or if someone's starting hero is above Lvl 1 and/or if there's an obvious bug, but not after end of Week 1.
3) Typical Strategy Overview
An average game will last somewhere between 2 and 5 hours. There's no tourney at Spy. Most of us usually play for fun first and foremost. Though we like the challenge and play with a bit of honor as well.
First meetings are quite likely to happen as soon as week 2, though the decisive battle(s) will most often not happen before late month 1 or early month 2.
It's fairly rare that any Hero goes above the 15th Lvl. Truth be said, in most cases both opponents' heroes are roughly around the 10th Lvl when they do fight the final battle.
Therefore, it's very unlikely to be able to push all 8 skills at Expert Lvl. Which is why an experienced Spyer will more often than not discard new skills (even potentially good ones) in favor of getting quick advancement in the 3 or 4 skills he/she needs the most.
For instance, once I get my Basic Earth Magic as Alamar, I'll refuse even great new skills if I'm offered Advanced EM instead. Because I know the opponent(s) is(are) near, and if we do meet soon, I'll be much better off with even 2 Expert Skills than a bunch of Basic (= useless) Skills.
The military route reigns supreme for most Spyers I know. Though I personaly more often than not stick to hybrid routes, because the lack of ressources keeps me from building all the creatures structures I could potentially build the first week.
The maps we play are usually far from rich and pretty sparse in the bonus department. Given that fact and the rather high difficulty Lvl we play at, choosing anything but ressources as your starting bonus would be a mistake. Most of the time, you'll need ressources so bad (precious ones especially) that you'll have to deal a lot with the marketplace to even fully build your town.
Chaining does exist to some extent, but it's quite limited. You have to go by priorities with a 2 mins timer. Then again, so do(es) your opponent(s), so it's no big deal if you don't have time to move one scout now and then. Neither will he/she(them).
It's extremely rare that anyone buys more than 4 or 5 heroes in total. The standard is to buy one secondary hero first day (two if and only if you have a really worthy one at the tavern). Then it all depends on the map's specifics and your overall situation.
The final battles are usually pretty tight. Both opponents have just the amount of troops they could buy before the attack, and the one who pushed at Expert the best skill(s) will often have an edge over the other (hence the critical importance of skill advancement management). The last man standing oftenly walks out with an almost completely "naked" hero (note from Legend : nothing nasty, here, don't get me wrong ! In Legendary language, a "naked" hero = what you Zoners call a "ghost hero", so "almost naked" = only a few troops left on !  ).
THE ZONERS' SCHOOL OF PLAYING
Quote:
Creatures crawl out from my weirdest, wildest dreams. They are flesh, not fantasy, they drag me inside the... Terror Zone !
"Terror Zone" by Kreator
1) Typical settings
Fixed Maps : Standard.
Random Maps : Yes (player-crafted templates).
Map Size : XXXL with or without Underground.
Water Content : Perish the thought !
Monster Strenght : Strong.
Difficulty Level : 130.
Timer : 6 Minutes per turn minimum.
Number of Players : 2 or 4.
Teams : Yes.
FFA : Only for 1 vs 1.
2) Typical Rules
Q (Quit) : Wanna be banned ?!
C (Cheat) : Wanna be banned ?!
HR (Hit & Run) : Of course not.
RR (Red Rush) : No.
DD (Dimension Door) : No.
Fly : No.
Diplo : No.
FMG (Fight Misplaced Guards) : Always !
Flux : Most often banned.
Necro : Most often banned.
Castle : Often banned (because of the Cons).
Rules Policy : Final once the game is started.
Reload Policy : Usually Okay.
Restart Policy : I have no idea (help needed).
3) Typical Strategy Overview
An average game will last somewhere between 6 and 24 hours. The tourney is almost omnipresent in the Zone. Most Zoners are usually under such high pressure when they play that you'd almost think they were doing the Olympics. Challenge and Honor are the two highest values they know of, though some of them sometimes actually play for fun as well.
First meetings are quite likely to happen no sooner than late month 1 or early month 2. It's fairly common that the 2 opponents (be it teams or single players) won't meet at all until they fight the final battle.
Therefore, it's very unlikely to not be able to push all 8 skills at Expert Lvl. Which is why an experienced Zoner will always choose a new good skill at basic Lvl over an advancement in one of the skills he/she already has.
99% of the game is playing solo vs the AI-controlled map's creature. So, Zoners do have an impressive amount of knowledge, tips and witty tactics to fight the AI.
The military route reigns supreme for all Zoners I know or ever heard of. The maps they play are usually so insanely rich that building a City Hall or even a Town Hall before they have any and all creatures buildings would be a mistake. Same goes for ressources, there are usually so plenty that the main problem is to figure out the best route to gather them. Given that fact and the relatively low difficulty Lvl they play at, it's more often than not best to choose an artifact as starting bonus.
Chaining is the beginning and end of everything for experienced Zoners. You have to make darn sure you get the most out of each and every turn, with a 6+ mins timer. Because if you make a bad move with even one out of your 8+ scouts, your opponent will benefit from it in the long run.
The standard is to buy 8 secondary heroes first day (regardless of their inner qualities). With all this gold and ressources to gather and the insanely long distance that will very soon separate your main hero from home, you have no other choice but to start chaining very thoroughly as soon as possible.
The final battles are usually pretty titanic. Both opponents come up with swarms of upgraded armies and loads of relics. I've not witnessed or experienced enough of these to make statistics yet (again, a helping hand would be appreciated) but my overall impression is that it's very unlikely that the winner will have less than a sizeable army left after the victory (at least from a Spyer's point of view ).
Well, that's it for now. I'm looking forward to edit this post to make it more accurate (particularly the Zoners' part), and again I could use some help.
One last remark, though : In case some of you are wondering why I call Spyers & Zoners the 2 Main Schools of Playing... It's because others exist too ! It's never a good idea to assume that all that you know is all that you could know, folks !
I've met a funny and really nice guy at Spy a few months ago whose style of playing doesn't fit neither in the Spyers' School nor in the Zoner's. And I'm pretty sure there are more like him out there !
But, as the saying goes, "that's another story..." 
See ? Told you it would be a long post even by my Legendarily overtalkative standards !
R.I.P. the Zone.
Long live the enlarged Spy.
Legend.
____________
LM  
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted January 31, 2006 12:54 AM |
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I like the description of the typical Gamespy game, but i dislike the one for the zone, coz there is about 15% truth in it...
The thing u described is nothing else but Jebuscross template. There are many more templates, where u wonīt buy more than 3 or 4 heroes in first week.
And itīs also a rumour, in the zone is mostly played on XXXL.....L size is the most common size (despite some point huggers who like to play M maps with Rampart and Ivor as starting hero..)
There are many templates which are average or even poor in resource and artefacts.
And the difficulty setting 130% has an easy reason....the comp plays at itīs best ability. Playing on 160% just raises the duration of the game. If u play M maps, u prolly rarely built level 7 dwelling (especially with dragon towns), but the original templates of 3DO are made that easy, u rarely have to fight tough boarder guards (lots or horde level 7 units) to get to your opponent.
You really should play some more "typical" zoner games before judging like that. Games may take longer (but not 24 hours...lol), but on XL maps for example, the luck factor isnīt that important anymore (no 2nd level dwelling prebuilt....no utopia in home area...etc...), coz u have many possibilities to equal that again.
On M maps, if both players have the same skill level, the game is mostly decided on day 1 already....
And about the time duration....donīt know who has told ya that, but itīs far away from the truth.
Standard on the zone is 4 minutes...there are some players, who like to play 6 minute turns, coz they are old and not that fast anymore (me included..). But i never saw anyone playing more than 6 minutes.
And i also never saw anyone banning Castle...lol...who has told ya that?....was drunken for sure...
Some guys ban conservatories and/or hives, but only towns to be banned are flux and necro.
Too much rules ruin the game...no doubt...there are only few rules important in my eyes....and one of them for sure is "fight misplaced guards", coz this is nothing else but a bug in the game...and using bugs for his advantage is nothing else but cheating!
Just my 2 cents though....
____________
Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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bjorn190
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Jebus maker
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posted January 31, 2006 01:27 AM |
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Quote:
The thing u described is nothing else but Jebuscross template. There are many more templates, where u wonīt buy more than 3 or 4 heroes in first week.
Nice! I hear that is a pretty decent template! good to hear the gamespyers think thats all the zoners play, hehh ehhe
Anyways, the spy style sounds fun, but I have a question for you gampspy-ers. Do you know the 3do templates? Cause a template maker like myself could learn them all and know exactly what kind of map it is from day 1 just from seeing the template name.
Sounds like a faster paced game too. Fast is good.
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LegendMaker
Promising
Famous Hero
The Metal Specialist
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posted January 31, 2006 11:34 AM |
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Template Makers Could Help Unite Both Schools
Hi bjorn190,
To my knowledge, none of us regular Spyers know the templates by heart (though it's sure we're enough used to them to get a rough idea of which type of map it is pretty early in the game).
The main reason we discarded fixed maps in the first place was precisely to get rid of players knowing the maps by heart.
But I agree templates have problems of their own. Most Spyers blame 3DO's templates for their inner balance issues on a regular basis. I for one was very enthusiastic about player-made templates when I first heard about them, hoping it would fix this problem.
Unfortunately, it seems that most (if not all) of the handcrafted templates currently available were made by Zoners for Zoners.
As a Spyer, it came as a hughe disappointment when I discovered that many of them were XL only and (even worse for us FFA fans) exclusively meant for duelling !
Truth be said, the one and only reason why 2 regular Spyers would launch a 1 vs 1 game is because they couldn't find more players available !
So the templates that are so popular for the Zoners' School (not only JebusCross, I also tried both "Extremes", Blockbuster and a few others) actually proved nearly useless for the Spyers' School.
If I may ask, a template maker like yourself could really help us Spyers out a whole lot by creating the first ever "Spyers-friendly" handmade template ! 
Care to give it a try ?
Tia. Legend.
PS : I'll soon get around to editing my main post after the precisions you Zoners give me about your School. Not until tonight, though, since I'm stuck IRL at the moment (only escaped a few minutes to see what kind of impact my "peace and love" masterplan had made).
____________
LM
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bjorn190
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Jebus maker
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posted January 31, 2006 12:29 PM |
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Quote:
If I may ask, a template maker like yourself could really help us Spyers out a whole lot by creating the first ever "Spyers-friendly" handmade template !
Care to give it a try ?
Sure, I might whip something up real fast in studybreaks, but then it would help alot if you try to describe what kind of template a spyer could like?
number of areas, high or low treasure, open or closed template, number of possible players, amount of road connections between zones, strength of zone guards (5 black dragons or 5 zombies?)
With h5 coming around the corner I might not make it perfect like Jebus Cross (I made it ) but it might still be good.
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CoCoDemon
Adventuring Hero
The pirate of the Baltic sea
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posted January 31, 2006 03:56 PM |
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hope this is a joke or what? it's like 2 talk about cccp when u have no idea what is going on there (I'.ve listened 2 so many dumpasses talking that hitler ir way more mean then stalin that makes me sick). Bout the stuff u have written it's beats me where u got it from ur dreams huh? Like example:
An average game will last somewhere between 6 and 24 hours
Timer : 6 Minutes per turn minimum.
FFA : Only for 1 vs 1.
r u nuts?
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Xarfax111
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
The last hero standing
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posted January 31, 2006 04:27 PM |
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...uffffzzz....this really breaks my heart. Never seen so much nonsense on one place. And again Angelito likes nonsense and gives it a Quality Point...oh geez.
@Legend u definately dont know anything about the zone and the zone players.
@angelito: For what did he get the QP exactly?
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TNT_Addict
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Beautiful Liar
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posted January 31, 2006 04:40 PM |
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Edit by angelito
If u donīt have to say something ontopic, better leave it!
What you are doing here is exact the way players from zone on gamespy were confronted with....bashing...and trashtalking.
Think about that!
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Russ
Promising
Supreme Hero
blah, blah, blah
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posted January 31, 2006 07:08 PM |
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Edited by Russ on 31 Jan 2006
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Ok, I am a Zone player. Here are a few of my thoughts in reply to this thread's author:
Gamespy:
Most of us usually play for fun first and foremost.
What's exactly fun about constantly running out of time and trying to move while hearing "BZZZZZZZ!!!!"? I am a Zone player, but once I played 2 Spyers who claimed to be "good" in a "3FFA" game with the typical Spyers ruleset. The "3FFA" basically meant they both ganged up on me, yet they both lost pretty badly and left without saying a word when it became obvious the game was lost for them. How much "fun" did I have in this game? NONE. My head was hurting because I had to rush even worse than in Starcraft. 2 mins is not nearly enough to build in 3-4 towns, move all heroes, hire&transfer armies, trade resources and rearrange my forces before each fight. It was so riduculous that in between my turns I literally planned the shortest path my mouse would travel in order to complete all the abovementioned tasks. I doubt I'll ever want to play any Spyers again. Even if they actually were any good at this game, those 2 min settings are too stressful.
Though we like the challenge and play with a bit of honor as well.
The honor? Where? Acting cocky before the game, then ganging up to try to kill me and to prove their superiority as Gamespyers in a something they called "3 FFA" (a more correct name would be "2 on 1") and then leaving when things don't go their way?
There is a reason people play 1 on 1 and 2 on 2 on Zone. And after playing those Gamespyers I understood exactly why it is so. Btw, 3FFAs are played on Zone we well, in case you didn't know.
To add more to it - I don't mind playing 1v1s or 2v2s on standard templates with gamespyers' rules. I can do 1v2 or 1v3 (but please, don't call those "FFA", try to get enough guts to admit that you are playing 2v1 because you are afraid to lose to a Zoner). And make a time setting that will actually allow you to chat while playing instead of just clicking your mouse as fast as you can while listening to the beeps. 4 or 6 mins are good enough.
THE ZONERS' SCHOOL OF PLAYING
I don't even know where to start... You try to classify Zoners without playing a single game on Zone. Most of the stuff you've said here is wrong. And I sense that most of it was said in an angry manner to try to make us, Zoners look stupid and ridiculous. And you even talk about Zoners' arrogance... Take a good look at yourself first before starting to make accusations.
Fixed Maps : Standard.
Not a whole lot of Zoners play those. Most people like me only play Random maps.
Random Maps : Yes (player-crafted templates).
I actually like playing standard templates. I know some Zoners that wouldn't mind playing those as well.
Map Size : XXXL with or without Underground.
I play anything starting from small no under to XL no under. I've never actually played XL+under in an online game. I'd say that the typical setting for the other players is Large no under.
Water Content : Perish the thought !
Monster Strenght : Strong.
Difficulty Level : 130.
Those 3 are perharps the only ones you didn't get wrong, WTG!
Timer : 6 Minutes per turn minimum.
Most Zoners play with 4 mins and 6 mins. I've NEVER seen anything above 6 mins (unless it is a friendly game with "unlimited" setting where you can chat all you want).
Number of Players : 2 or 4.
or 3
Teams : Yes.
FFA : Only for 1 vs 1.
or 3
2) Typical Rules
Q (Quit) : Wanna be banned ?!
eh?
C (Cheat) : Wanna be banned ?!
eh?
HR (Hit & Run) : Of course not.
RR (Red Rush) : No.
DD (Dimension Door) : No.
Fly : No.
Diplo : No.
Some players (like me) play Diplo games.
FMG (Fight Misplaced Guards) : Always!
No. Unfortunately, no. Some of Zoners cheat by not following this rule. And even if you catch some of those cheating, they will go into lengthy discussions trying to prove that they didn't break the rule. Zoners have their flaws.
Flux : Most often banned.
Necro : Most often banned.
Thank you for prefixing your statements with "Most often".
Castle : Often banned (because of the Cons).
Really?
Rules Policy : Final once the game is started.
Is that so?
Reload Policy : Usually Okay.
Restart Policy : I have no idea (help needed).
I think you should move that line to the top to make it say: "THE ZONERS' SCHOOL OF PLAYING I have no idea (help needed)"
3) Typical Strategy Overview
An average game will last somewhere between 6 and 24 hours.
The maps they play are usually so insanely rich
Interesting. why don't you just prefix this with "I have no idea (help needed)" instead of making a post filled with nonsense?
Chaining is the beginning and end of everything for experienced Zoners. You have to make darn sure you get the most out of each and every turn, with a 6+ mins timer. Because if you make a bad move with even one out of your 8+ scouts, your opponent will benefit from it in the long run
This one is correct (except for 6+ mins and 8+ scouts statements. FYI - you are can not have more than 8 heroes on an adventure map. If one of them is a "main", only 7 can be scouts. And quite obviously the heroes sitting inside the castles can't really scout much). I am not sure how you managed to make this observation and miss the obvious points, but I am glad you didn't miss this one.
See... on Zone people actually THINK about their STRATEGY when they play a STRATEGY game. And yes, HOMM3 IS in fact a strategy game! Veteran Zone players actually plan their moves, they plan where they'll chain their troops, they plan what they'll build and they plan how they'll fight each battle BEFORE attacking.
Of course, this is just my personal preference, but I find this approach more fun when playing a STRATEGY game instead of just aimlessly moving around my only 2 heroes.
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Aculias
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Pretty Boy Angel Sacraficer
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posted January 31, 2006 07:59 PM |
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Interenting I wanted to see what the whole environment was like in the gamespy.
I been knowing that the gamespy environment was limited & boring due to paying for maximum results etc.
WHen i came in there I was talking to one of them & learned that Gamer Spy despised players from the zone.
First time I heard the word Zoners lol.
What it gets down to is that Gamespy players despise tournaments also, they think they are silly & it feels like i am in a foriegn country in there lol.
They think were way too serious, they arte prejudice towards ZONERS , they think we all got no game (cant play good) & were unintellegent.
What they dont understand is we dont have no prob with them but with the whole gamespy environment.
Since they have a problem with us, lets give them a surprise .
Yall should know that everyone plays with dif rules & settings.
Maybe Gamesoy players are machines & play EXACTLY only one way only but I promise you, all of us play dif settings & rules possibly SLIGHTLY dif.
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted January 31, 2006 09:21 PM |
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To make some things clear here.
+QP was not given by me, but i agree with that bonus.
What i think about the whole content of the first post, can be read in the second post..
But the +QP was NOT given coz of the stated facts, but for the will to bring these 2 different "crowds" together.
Zone closes today its room for Heroes3, so most of us will go to Gamespy instead.
To be honest, the "welcome party" i recieved on my first day was horrible. Never thought this could happen. They donīt know nothing about you, but start to trashtalk, bash and even insult u like hell. Iīm still not sure where this comes from, some of them say, many Zone players came to Gamespy and acted very arrogant and in a "know it all" style. Canīt judge that, but still that is no reason to act that way to EVERYONE who comes from the zone, thats just childish.
On the other hand, there are some good guys in Gamespy aswell, whith whom u can talk nice and clearify some things. One of them is Legendmaker (also Beast, Oldbird, and others..). All he has in mind with this thread, is to get the "unification" of Zone and GS players as peacefull going as possible. I really think there are only a handfull "bad guys" on gamespy, who bring that bad mood into that atmosphere.
And no Xarfax, i donīt like and reward nonsense (), but took a view "behind" the scene...thatīs all..
____________
Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Russ
Promising
Supreme Hero
blah, blah, blah
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posted January 31, 2006 09:47 PM |
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An attempt to bring the 2 communities together?Quote:
It also had its downsides, most infamously the fact that it's been a shelter for hordes of helpless noobs and/or very arrogant people in the last year or so.
...
Timer : 6 Minutes per turn minimum.
Map Size : XXXL with or without Underground.
An average game will last somewhere between 6 and 24 hours.
So, he starts out by insulting the Zone players and then goes on to tell a bunch of nonsense about us to try to overexaggerate our playing style and to make us look stupid. I am sorry, but I don't see how that's supposed to help bringing the 2 communities together.
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted January 31, 2006 10:04 PM |
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Sorry Russ, but what u r doing here is not fair. Thatīs the way "yellow press" journalism works normaly..
Quoting a small phrase out of the whole context and then blame the whole posting.
You could have quoted the 2-liner right above aswell..
Quote:
It had quite its glorious moments, most notably related to the famous Tournament Of Honor. Legendary (no pun intended this time) players have graced it with their fighting spirit and highly valuable strategical skills.
And there are arrogant people in the zone...and in gamespy....made my own experience with that.
Also the thing about horde of noobs is not wrong...what do yout think whom i helped out the last 2 years in the zone?...lol
And the exaggerating has itīs reason and it works it seems....
It "forces" the zone players to correct that stuff and make things clear. Exactly how it should be.
____________
Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Russ
Promising
Supreme Hero
blah, blah, blah
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posted January 31, 2006 11:18 PM |
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Edited by Russ on 31 Jan 2006
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Quote:
And there are arrogant people in the zone...and in gamespy....made my own experience with that.
That's different from saying shelter for hordes of helpless noobs and/or very arrogant people. The original one implies that Zone ONLY has those players.
This wouldn't be so bad if he was the only one, but I've seen another Gamespy player make a similar statement on HC today (i.e. that the Zone players are arrogant). So, this means that this is the general attitude towards us.
I can probably see the cause of this. They think that they are good, they ramble about their great strategies that most Zone vets look at with irony, and whenever we prove them wrong, they just call us arrogant instead of trying to learn from us.
Those 2 guys making the posts about our "arrogance" do not really improve my opinion about the Gamespyers.
I can't say this about all Gamespyers, but so far I've only seen a bunch of people with a lot of attitude who don't want to listen and would rather prefer living in their bliss or ignorance thinking about how good they are at this game (even if you play them by their rules and prove them that they aren't).
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LegendMaker
Promising
Famous Hero
The Metal Specialist
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posted February 01, 2006 02:46 AM |
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Brainwashing Dies Hard (Like Any Bad Habit)
Hi again fellow Heroes fans.
Disclaimer : please, read the full post in a row before replying to only a part of it. Some parts you might find offensive at first, but I hope the whole will make sense for you if you read it to the end. Tia.
It's pretty clear most of the people who replied are Zoners, not Spyers. Good thing, too. Because, as I stated several times in my first post, since I'm obviously more familiar with the Spyers' School than the Zoners', if some of you Zoners could give me precisions, I'd be thankfull.
As far as I know, there are lots of Zoners but very few Spyers at HC yet. Some of you sure reminded me quite well (if needed) that I'm the minority, here.
Since the "fusion" of the two communities is actually taking place by Spy integrating ex-Zoners in addition to its own regulars, it's exactly the opposite situation, there.
So we have some kind of balance, huh ? Nope ! Eye for an eye is no balance. It's a snake biting its own tail again, and again, and again. It's a pointless circle of violence. It's precisely what I started this thread for trying to put and end to !
Never assumed it would be an easy task, though.
For those who missed that part on my first post : Quote:
When I first joined at Spy almost 3 years ago, I had never even heard of the Zone before. It's regular Spyers who told me about it. "Go back to the Zone, where you belong !" was a fairly common way to imply someone was a noob, back then. I've heard so many horror stories about Zoners, I'd assume they were the lowest form of life.
When I became friends with Tigris, he told me he'd heard the exact same horror stories. Only about us Spyers. Because, basically, he'd had the same Heroes background as me. The only difference was that he joined the Zone, while I joined Spy.
Does any of you seriously think it would have been any different if he'd joined Pepsi while I joined Coca-Cola ?! I don't. Neither does Tigris, for all I know.
I will explain it further :
I am a Spyer ! I've been brainwashed into thinking Zoners were the lowest form of life !
But I noticed the brainwashing. And I'm not the type of guy to let my brain get washed without doing something about it ! Believe it or not ! 
So I've changed my mind about Zoners. This was several months ago, back when I met Tigris.
Before that essential meeting, all I knew about Zoners was either Spy's corporate brainwashing or horrible experiences I'd had with complete ******** that happened to be Zoners.
Doesn't it sound awfully similar to your own experience, Russ ?
You made it pretty clear that you only gave Spyers one and only chance so far. It turned out the 2 only representatives from the Spyer's School you ever met were complete ********. Then you jumped to the conclusion that the Zone's corporate brainwashing was the truth.
I don't blame you. Simply because :
You are a Zoner ! You've been brainwashed into thinking Spyers were the lowest form of life !
Before you take that as an offense on my part (which it's honestly not meant to be), please give it a thought for a minute. Read this again : Quote:
See... on Zone people actually THINK about their STRATEGY when they play a STRATEGY game. And yes, HOMM3 IS in fact a strategy game!
What else would that mean if not "you Spyers are dumb as posts" ; "you Spyers have no idea what strategy is" and "you Spyers don't even know what Heroes is all about" ?
And how could a clever and tempered strategy expert like you (as I heard ) actually think such nonsense if it wasn't the result of brainwashing ?
And, like I implied in this post's title... Brainwashing dies hard indeed !
You see... The exaggerations in the last part of my original post that apparently offended most of you... 
Those were first and foremost intended as jokes, though not at all to make fun of Zoners.
Of course statements like "XXXL Maps" ; "24 hours games" ; "6+ mins timer" or "8+ secondary heroes" couldn't possibly have been serious ! Not from an experienced Heroes' player like myself, mind you !
Consciously, that is.
I'd first assumed, like Angelito that they were also meant to "force" some kind of reaction from Zoners. It's true to some extent, and it sure worked quite a bit in that respect, but...
In retrospect, I actually think these were also to some extent the result of some brainwashing's leftovers in my subconscious. And I'm not proud of that fact, believe me.
It sure would have worked a lot better if I had achieved a perfectly objective post about both Schools in the first place. It's what I was aiming for, honest. But I failed for the last part.
Mea culpa.
I'm sincerely sorry if I made some of you Zoners feel I was trying to make you look stupid or inferior to Spyers in any way. It's absolutely NOT what I think !
Then again, I'm only a Spyer who's woken up from his typical anti-Zoners brainwashing. I'm not perfect !
But at least, I try. I try very hard to help people from both Schools getting rid of their anti-(the other School) brainwashing ! Myself included.
Will you please join me in this cause, folks ?
About My Original Post
The first part I don't think has anything inacurrate in it. It's only meant as :
* A homage to the Zone's Homm3 room (again, R.I.P.).
* A reminder that GameSpy's Homm3 room still exists, and an invitation for ex-Zoners to join there as a replacement.
* A briefing on the hostile status quo that exists to this day between Spyers & Zoners, and a call to tolerance and just plain good sense to both, in light of my personnal experience, to make this senseless situation stop.
The particular line that offended Russ so much, I think it's only a missunderstanding : English isn't my native language. If you're more fluent in it than me and you say the exact way I put it implied that the Zone sheltered only noobs or arrogant people, I'll take your word for it. It's of course NOT what I wanted to say.
Why the **** would I make all these efforts to reconciliate "my camp" with Zoners if I thought they were all arrogant and/or noobish ?! 
The second part I actually think could have offended some Spyers if they were more present at HC, believe it or not !
Anyway, being the longtime regular (and Legendary lol) Spyer that I am, and knowing pretty well most of the other regulars Spyers I know this is nothing but the truth.
Again, as I stated clearly in the first post itself, it's only the typical, standard, average (whatever you call it). This particular point adressed to you, Aculias : some Spyers go by significantly different rules / settings than the ones I typed down here. I'm well aware of that. These are only averages, to give you a rough idea of the style of the Spyers' School !
The third part is indeed a big failure of mine, as it turned out. It's only the result of my overall impression after playing several games the Zoners' way, and based on some hints the few Zoners I know well gave me.
I can see it's far from accurate thanks to you guys.
However, there was a missunderstanding there as well. A hughe one, it seems. I NEVER meant this rough of mine to be the final draft !
It was but a mere starting point, and I'd assume I made it clear enough in my first post (and again in my second post's post-scriptum) that I needed you regular Zoners' help to improve from it !
My mistake.
Guess those statements weren't clear enough : Quote:
(how long exactly ? I'm not an expert of the Zone history, so if someone could please give me the info, I'd be thankfull).
Quote:
Lastly, since I'm obviously more familiar with the Spyers' School than the Zoners', if some of you Zoners could give me precisions, I'd be thankfull.
Quote:
Restart Policy : I have no idea (help needed).
Quote:
(again, a helping hand would be appreciated)
Quote:
I'm looking forward to edit this post to make it more accurate (particularly the Zoners' part), and again I could use some help.
Quote:
PS : I'll soon get around to editing my main post after the precisions you Zoners give me about your School.
After seeing the negative replies I'd got (almost all exclusively focused on the Zoners' School part) I even considered following Russ' advice and leaving this part blank for you Zoners to fill. Angelito pointed out that it would make your replies up to this point ununderstandable, so I reconsidered.
Of course, Xarfax, I don't know much about Zoners and their School of Playing ! Correct me if I'm wrong, but you don't know much about Spyers and their School of Playing, do you ?
The main point of this thread is precisely to make Spyers & Zoners get to know each other better, and start getting along and learning from one another.
So, please tell me more about the Zoners' School ! I'm all ears.
And if you have questions about GameSpy, Spyers and/or the Spyers' School, feel free to ask me !
Some quick last remarks (I'm exhausted now, this post took me 2 hours later than my original "go to sleep" deadline But well worth it, I hope) :
1) To Russ : The fact that your two opponents were obviously cheaters and quitters (or droppers like you Zoners say) simply means they deserve to end on our infamous **** list, period. Do you think I'd bother to subtitle all my rooms "no cheaters, no quitters, no noobs" if they didn't exist such persons at Spy ?
That aside, the way you described that particular game you played with them, it's pretty clear to me that you made the mistake to not adapt to the Spyers' style while playing a Spyers' game. The way I see it, both Schools have their own particularities, and they aren't interchangeable. With a 2 mins timer, you shouldn't have 4 fully built towns and 8 heroes to manage ! Just like you shouldn't have only 2 heroes with a 6 mins timer. It works both way, honestly.
2) To Aculias : I'm still a free user after almost 3 years at Spy, and pretty happy with it. The advantages subscribing gives aren't essential in any way. All you get is less ads (but there are very few anyway ), unlimited invitations you can send other players to join their contacts list (but all you have to do once you're out of invitations is to ask your friends to invite you instead, there's no limit to the number of person you can have in your list ) and faster downloads at fileplanet (which is very rarely usefull anyway, your data transfers aren't slower in the main lobby, in rooms or of course ingame). So IMHO, there's no such thing as "paying for maximum results" at Spy, don't worry !
3) To Angelito : Quote:
+QP was not given by me, but i agree with that bonus.
Why didn't you say so when I thanked you for it ? Lmfao Okay, so Legendary edit, here : I maintain all that I said to you today, except the thanks for the red star ! Thanks for your supporting the "peace and love" cause, still !
4) To Hexa : Hi, Hexa. Pleased to meet you. And now that I know it's you who deserves it, here's to you...
Legendary Re-EDIT : lol Still pleased to meet you, Hexa. Now that I know it's neither you who deserves it... I retreat my thanking you for the QP.
5) To The Mysterious Helping Hand : Quote:
Thanks a bunch, Angel. (EDIT : Hexa, not Angel ! lol) (Re-EDIT : You, whoever that "you" is, neither Angel nor Hexa ! Lmfao) Not so much for my personnal "Legend" (of course earning a quality point is really flattering and it encourages me a lot to keep up my efforts at HC)... but first and foremost, thank you for supporting me in this particular move, because I really believe it's about time both Schools started to know each other and stopped this nonsense war.
The red star near the thread title will hopefully give it a lot more attention, and therefore help this cause I really believe in.
I must add, the fact that it was you, (EDIT : who moves in mysterious ways ! lol) that gave me the QP makes it 2 times (EDIT : double that again) as valuable in my eyes !
Kind Regards to all Heroes fans, whichever School they fancy !
Legend.
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LM
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted February 01, 2006 08:47 AM |
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Lol....the +QP wasnīt given by Hexa either..
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Aculias
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Pretty Boy Angel Sacraficer
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posted February 01, 2006 10:17 AM |
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I know you tookm the time & respected of course.
Cant have no progress if you dont try & take chances.
As I stated in my original post.
We usually have no beef with any of the players but the site itself.
To answer your question about the zone & Gamespy.
Theres really not difference at all, it's just a place to play at.
It seems gamespy plays only for fun & despise tournies.
I learned alot from Gamspyers.
For some reason they have a problem with us.
They think thier better then us, they think all tournies are silly & they think we take our games & our personal lv way too serious.
I met some bad eggs in the gamespy when i come in & I dont put up with criticisms.
Most of the reasons why we get made is because of cheaters, droppers, whiners & A holes.
Theres a point in why we get frusterated.
Shoot we want a good game too we dont want to get screwed over by punks who cant play right.
Legend it seems you see in both of our shoes but not totally.
Zoners are not the only ones at fault you know.
All I can say is Da Gear in gamespy or whatever his name is disrespected me & some on zone.
So he will be getting a piece of myh mind for awhile
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bjorn190
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Jebus maker
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posted February 01, 2006 11:54 AM |
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Well when I read it I also saw he exagerrated a bit aobut the zoneres like 6 min time limit lol. But it's through the eyes of a spyer so its gonna be a bit like that.
I kinda like the zone style of play but the gamespy way seems good too, as long as no cheaters/dropppers of course.
But with h5 coming I dunno, anyone still palys h3?
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LegendMaker
Promising
Famous Hero
The Metal Specialist
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posted February 01, 2006 02:17 PM |
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Untill Homm5 is 100% ready... Make mine Homm3 !
Quote:
But with h5 coming I dunno, anyone still palys h3?
Bjorn, as you probably know by now, we've saved the unfinished Homm5 for being rush-released (I'm but one in 2500+ in that "we" ).
It's very unlikely that anyone could actually use the current open beta for any other purpose than testings (and even for that, it crashes so often, you'd better be blessed with Patience Skill at Expert Lvl ! ).
The finished, accomplished version of Homm5 will hopefully not be released until at least a few months. I for one hope it won't get out before this summer or even later. I'd rather wait much longer, because the more we'll wait, the closer the final product will be from our wildest dreams.
Until that day, we'll have to wait. But it's not that bad, is it ? Because "wait" = keep on playing this wonderful game that we've all cherished for years now : Homm3 !
So, since you've made this great offer, I definitely think it's still well worth the effort to make a Spyer-friendly template !
Tia. Legend.
PS : I'll give as much precisions as I can to make your task easier tonight. Real life calls me back, for now !
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LM
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Aculias
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Pretty Boy Angel Sacraficer
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posted February 01, 2006 03:30 PM |
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Looks like one of your Spyers wants a war once we head to gamespy.
Angelito & some others know who he is.
This should be fun.
Not only do we have to move there but Were taking over gamespy.
Not on purpose.
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