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| Thread: A story of Good and Evil | |
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Miru
Supreme Hero
A leaf in the river of time
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posted April 16, 2006 12:21 AM |
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Poll Question:
A story of Good and Evil
READ ALL OF THIS BEFORE MAKEING ANY DESCIONS ABOUT IT
Notice: I do not necessarily agree with or believe this.
We all know that the opinion of Satan (lucifer) is evil, but the question is, do we even know why he is considered evil (other that the priests tell us he is)? Here is his complete story (from what I understand):
PRELUDE:
One day there was nothing, blah blah, I think therfore I am, blah blah, god popped up, made stuff, made angels, blah blah, etc..
STORY:
Later god went missing, and all of the angels went looking to find him. Eventually they did, and found he was resting. They asked him what he was doing, and he pointed to earth and said, I was making that. When they asked him what 'that' was, he said it was a planet with people, and soon civilazion, etc..
Soon after this, Lucifer (at this point he is an angel, and one of god's best friends) came up to god and talked to him. The conversation went kinda like this:
Lucifer: ya know that planet you made, earth, with all of the people on it?
God: yes...
L: well I was wondering, they're gunna have wars, and raping, and porn, and food proccesing plants, and murdering if you let them develop on their own.
G: what's your point?
L: well they live, the have pleasure in whatever form they want, and then they die and go to heaven, and all of us angels are going to be going down there as babies and forget we are angels and live life down there to see what it's like.
G: so...?
L:well I think all of this war and hate, and rape, etc.. is pretty bad, so I think someone should be a monarch for them and guide them, so they are all happpy and safe.
G: no it's fine as is, and I dont want to go be their king.
L: then, can I be their king?
G: no, let them choose their own path.
L: but you know they will develop evil that way, right?
G: yes.
L: but thats bad! com'on, please let me be king..!
G: I said no.
L: pretty please with a cherry on top?
G: NO, and thats FINAL!
L: oh you suck!
And then lucifer took a poll from the angels. About 1/3 agreed with him (humans should have a leader), and 2/3 agreed with god. Then all of the angels, lucifer and god argued for a while until god got sick of it, and he banished lufier and his friends. They became known as devils.
Lucifer knew that he lost, but he still thought there should be some form of punishment to keep people from bieng evil, so he made his new home, hell, a place of punishment, to black mail all of the people to be good.
The end.
My poll question is, do you agree with lucifer (as he is portrayed in this story), or god (as he is portrayed in this story)?
I dont care if you think the story is true, or if you're a christian, but if you're not, think of this a hypothetical. This is not nessecarily the way it went, so don't argue about it.
DO NOT VOTE UNLESS YOU HAVE READ ALL OF THE ABOVE
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I wish I were employed by a stupendous paragraph, with capitalized English words and expressions.
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Valeriy
Mage of the Land
Naughty, Naughty Valeriy
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posted April 16, 2006 12:24 PM |
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Hehe, you have a fun way of telling the biblical legend 
I think there are other options too. Maybe satan and devils were made up by people in order to frighten other people into behaving a certain way, and also in order to blame satan and devils for the bad deeds they don't want to be responsible for.
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You can wait for others to do it, but if they don't know how, you'll wait forever.
Be an example of what you want to see on HC and in the world.
http://www.heroesofmightandmagic.com
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TNT_Addict
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Beautiful Liar
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posted April 16, 2006 12:32 PM |
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God was right, wars, murders, rapes, all the bad deeds and especially porn  is as vital to humans as all the good stuff like love, family and friends.
So no need to interrupt the natural process of human evolution!
And most important the making of PORN !
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Please
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FriendOfGunnar
Honorable
Legendary Hero
able to speed up time
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posted April 16, 2006 05:09 PM |
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I'm with God on this one. It was his planet and he should be able to decide how things go. If Lucifer wanted to rule his own planet then he should get his own.
It's difficult to go farther then that though because your story never mentions the motivations that God has in creating his world, so it's impossible to say if you agree with his/her motivations.
(btw I see very little correlation between this story and Christianity. This sounds like some kook's new-agey attempt to validate his own little cult of satan that he's trying to get started)
[edit: after further reflection I am now 100% sure that this is some kook's new-agey attempt to validate his own little cult of satan that he's trying to get started. Where did you find this Miru and who is the kook that we can thank for this little story?]
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Loknar
Adventuring Hero
Missing Links
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posted April 16, 2006 08:12 PM |
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Edited by Loknar on 18 Apr 2006
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God's Logic
Quote:
L: oh you suck!
That was the original sin. 
I love the story and support the QP request from the signature. But I couldn't vote yet, because there's still some thinking from my side in progress:
The trick is that the question is to be answered taking the personel "as they are portrayed in this story", and that story does not provide sufficient imformation to answer it: Did God create men with free will? Or could he still have tweaked with that after this serious incident?
If he created a being with free will (as the common story goes), I think it would be contradictory to no also allow them free evolution. Free will and free evolution are logically connected imo. (Think this politically, it's worthwhile.)
(Little side-problem Is God creator of the logic, or is logic a natural phenomenon (that underlies all being including God)? (If the latter, hehe, there couldn't be a creator of all.  ).)
If we assume a widely accepted definition of God, he/she/it should be the perfect being and if some of the above is true and we assume the logical (or the natural) is positive, God should be perfectly logical. The conclusion would be: God is right, men don't need a leader for their evolution. It would be illogical to give them one after they were created with free will.
I think you must come to the same conclusion if men have no free will, since then they are driven by necessity and need no guidance either.
In both versions, Lucifer sucks  and belongs to hell  . (His evil is irrationality and/or greed for power. Very realistic.  )
Unfortunately God here doesn't seem to quite fit the definition of the perfect being. His authority for one seems seriously flawed. And was it logical to ban Lucifer to hell, thereby also creating a seducer to men? But perhaps God is masochist in this story or bored and in search for adventure? (This would also account for the otherwise silly mistake of giving free will to Lucifer.) We also have no real clue on what he aimed at when creating earth in the first place, as FoG pointed out. I don't know if I'll ever vote.
Btw, yes, if we assume that sex is also a gift from God (or also a natural phenomenon, not created by God? ) and we also assume (like Sigmund  ) that the sense of vision has a close bond to sexuality, porn could surely be proven to be a natural product of the evolution of men. (And God should approve of porn, if he is logical. I think I'll make a new thread on that, that will be fun. )
Miru, this is by far the avatar that suits you best up to now imo. Whose is it? You forgot to update your diary, I think.
And TNT, tune those styles down, I get a headache!  (Valeriy you for certain created a monster! Imagine they all break lose!  )
[edit: clarifications, streamlined for spam-usage]
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TNT_Addict
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Beautiful Liar
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posted April 16, 2006 10:46 PM |
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Quote:
And TNT, tune those styles down, I get a headache!
@Loknar
Hehehe, you know that I just can't hold back on a response when somebody has already made a comment about me.
When you recieve you just have to give something back so here it goes:
You know what really gives me a headache? Is all of your editing sometimes about 10 times the same post ! Bumping the thread 10 times to the top and making me reread the same stuff all over again... [Future edit here] Blah Blah just a note will be deleted after I'm done [future edit] Some more Blah blah blah and hundreds of smilies to go for seconds!
You know I never take anything seriously man just my way of responding to relax my ego, and get it out of my system.
BTW I like you and I hope you will continue floating here in HC and as often as possible.
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Please
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Loknar
Adventuring Hero
Missing Links
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posted April 16, 2006 10:58 PM |
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Edited by Loknar on 18 Apr 2006
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Quote:
You know I never take anything seriously man just my way of responding to relax my ego, and get it out of my system.
I'm sure that's mighty healthy, so keep it up! I need some feather-plucking for that, as I already told you. (And sorry for the edits.)
[edit: Ha! I already have something more to say: TNT, adapting your ways of getting drunk and it out of your system:
If some people wouldn't have been too drunk to vote right and if that Xarfax hadn't… , there would probably already be a Non-Reviving Edit option - and you dare telling me that you mind the threads getting bumped by my editing? And while we're at it: On my 31st of march, I saw this spam-style post by you very briefly flashing over my screen, saying that you were drunk again and have rated my precious poll spamfest while you had those April's fool's quality stars. (Whoever gave them to you of all members must have been totally out of his mind.) - Can you by chance recall it? - So: Could you please cause that label to get changed? (philosophy or inspiring would be adequate, I feel.) And then, since you so readily concealed your minor outburst of that primitive feeling of vengefulness, could you please read the Post Owner thread and vote in the polls for the Normal and the QP edit/delete restrictions? (Even a little contribution? The perspective of someone who is frequently drunk while posting would be a most valuable and important addition. Two-liner would suffice.) I don't want to influence you, but if you picture this incident and fancy you'd be so drunk that you'd forget to delete the post, you will surely find many lucid points in my arguments. And TNT, I like you a lot, too, and I support each and every word on supersonics list. (I just must compulsorily pluck that angel's feathers. It's too much of temptation for me.) - But I could add some other to supersonics list: First of all: Don't be shallow! (Though you make it kind of an art.) And **** ICONIC LANGUAGE! Read it! And I'm sure you'll be able to grasp why I insert those [future edit]-notes. Your playground is VW - mine is the edit screen. So WHAT? I want to get on your nerves, you spammers, dammit!
Hyaeh… Feels so good… Aaah… ]
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TNT_Addict
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Beautiful Liar
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posted April 17, 2006 06:32 AM |
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Whoah, there buddy seems like you are being quite off topic here tss tss tss... Damn spammers everywhere...
So you like me and me likes me so it's a perfect world then!
Back to the topic yes yes @Loknar there IS such a thing you should try it sometimes, if all the people where all wusses and we had no wars and murders the human population would boom like an insectoid one and cover all the planet untill it would be too crowded to live in .
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Please
click and help me out!! Thanks!!
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Vlaad
Admirable
Legendary Hero
ghost of the past
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posted April 17, 2006 08:32 AM |
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I love you both. 
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Loknar
Adventuring Hero
Missing Links
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posted April 18, 2006 10:59 PM |
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Edited by Loknar on 18 Apr 2006
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Back to Topic, well sort of
Quote:
PRELUDE:
One day there was nothing, blah blah, I think therefore I am, blah blah, god popped up, made stuff, made angels, blah blah, etc..
Am I the only one who finds this hilarious? This place is truly declining or my humor is just far off this community. Out of the nothingness, there is only empty chaos, there begins this Rationalist doubt! Who is I? How did this get near the Bible?
TNT
Actually, I saw this from the beginning on, but now I am glad I have this little afterdrop to still the thirst of the spam-spoiled community and can thereby conceal the massive editing I've done on the other posts. And out of the kindness of my heart (and not because you have deserved it so far), I have even removed the [future edits]-notes. Removing the note of course doesn't mean there will be none.
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Vlaad
Admirable
Legendary Hero
ghost of the past
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posted April 18, 2006 11:11 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
PRELUDE:
One day there was nothing, blah blah, I think therefore I am, blah blah, god popped up, made stuff, made angels, blah blah, etc..
Am I the only one who finds this hilarious? This place is truly declining or my humor is just far off this community. Out of the nothingness, there is only unordered and empty chaos, there begins this Rationalist self-doubt! Of whom? Who is I? How did this get near the Bible?
I've noticed Descartes too, but thought the entire initial post was far-fetched and retold badly.
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friendofgunnar
Honorable
Legendary Hero
able to speed up time
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posted April 18, 2006 11:23 PM |
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<Descarte>
Could you elaborate please Vlaad?
I'm still somewhat intrigued by this story. Although I'll bet one QP that it was invented within the last 40 years.
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Vlaad
Admirable
Legendary Hero
ghost of the past
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posted April 19, 2006 08:45 AM |
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Quote:
<Descarte>
Could you elaborate please Vlaad?
I'm still somewhat intrigued by this story. Although I'll bet one QP that it was invented within the last 40 years.
Cogito ergo sum or I think, therefore I am was written by Descartes, French philosopher, mathematician, and scientist. It is funny Miru put it into the mouth of Deceiving God.
See Loknar's post for further explanation.
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Miru
Supreme Hero
A leaf in the river of time
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posted April 23, 2006 04:56 AM |
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Quote:
I'm with God on this one. It was his planet and he should be able to decide how things go. If Lucifer wanted to rule his own planet then he should get his own.
It's difficult to go farther then that though because your story never mentions the motivations that God has in creating his world, so it's impossible to say if you agree with his/her motivations.
The point isn't, is that how it went, or is satan a good guy, but do you agree with lucifer's argument (in this story, as portrayed in this story)
Quote:
[edit: after further reflection I am now 100% sure that this is some kook's new-agey attempt to validate his own little cult of satan that he's trying to get started. Where did you find this Miru and who is the kook that we can thank for this little story?]
No, this is supposedly what happend (I'm an athiest, so it doesnt matter to me other than the meaning), and the people who wrote (I'm tempted to say 'made up') the bible, wrote this, with different wording.
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I wish I were employed by a stupendous paragraph, with capitalized English words and expressions.
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