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angelito
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posted March 15, 2009 01:57 PM |
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Edited by angelito at 13:57, 15 Mar 2009.
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Quote:
angelito,
you shouldn't forget how touchy people are. Belittling their religion may be an insult
First of all, someone should show me were I have "insulted" someone's religion in my post. Secondly, I still state my opinion, you can't insult something which doesn't exist (or still not proven).
Can you insult an alien?
Can you insult Adam and Eve?
Can you insult space?
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@ Baklava
I don't need to "know", coz I do not claim anything which is not known already...in opposit to the hardline believers.
And your example with my wife doesn't fit at all, coz I can "prove" her existance, be it personal or by photo.
While still no one can prove the existance of God.
Another try?
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DagothGares
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posted March 15, 2009 02:10 PM |
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Unrelated
Has anyone ever considered this opinion:
"When you break down Christiany, you're progressive. When you break down any other religion, you're conservative."
Anyway, Angelito, you can't proof the existence of your wife over teh internets. 
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baklava
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posted March 15, 2009 02:15 PM |
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Edited by baklava at 14:20, 15 Mar 2009.
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Of course you claim things which are not known already. You're claiming that there is no higher power, which is far from being known.
What people need to do is straighten up some facts. Hardline believers believe there is a god; atheists don't. Neither of those sides has scientific proof. If you're claiming there's no God, you can't say "I'm not claiming anything which isn't known already" because the existence or a lack of God is not known. In fact, theists still outnumber atheists on our planet; so if you're considering something like "general or widespread 'knowledge'", theists win.
You're not much into Descartes' philosophy? A radical skeptic, if you show him the photo and claim it's some kind of proof, will argue about the existence of the photo itself. He can see and meet your wife, and still can't know for sure that she exists. In fact, a radical skeptic isn't quite sure whether he exists himself; and as such anything he/she sees or feels may not exist as well. That's the belief of radical skeptics, just like your belief is that there is no God. And just like you allow yourself to insult the beliefs of theists, a radical skeptic might allow himself to insult anything - including, but not limited to, your wife's sexual/economic preferences. 
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Disturbed-Gnu
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posted March 15, 2009 02:25 PM |
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If ther would be a god (Which i don't bellieve in), and a life after this one.. Think of it,, a heaven with tons of people going arround in a peacefull boring mono-white cloud hall, and praying, singing and all that crap you do in a church.. Doing the same thing all day long for ever and ever,, an infinite circle of boring religion....
If that exists, i'd rather choose hell.. Endless pain! or we could just say endless fetish, drinking and *******, cuz that is what relegion bans  All the fun!!
The devil is in everyone! He is the one that makes us drink, fight and and just don't give a **** about anything, where god puts a little dicipline in us all, and makes us good people that is agaisnt war an so on...
^^ Doesn't that sound a little unrealistic?
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DagothGares
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posted March 15, 2009 03:01 PM |
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Quote:
If ther would be a god (Which i don't bellieve in), and a life after this one.. Think of it,, a heaven with tons of people going arround in a peacefull boring mono-white cloud hall, and praying, singing and all that crap you do in a church.. Doing the same thing all day long for ever and ever,, an infinite circle of boring religion....
You should read lovely bones.
It's a book about someone who goes to the afterlife and the afterlife is a place where people can do what they loved doing most.
The gradma of the main character for instance, was an alcoholic. When she arrived in heaven, there was a bar
Now, I think it's probably something else, but your vision of other's visions is narrow-minded and insulting...
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Doomforge
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posted March 15, 2009 03:26 PM |
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Quote:
First of all, someone should show me were I have "insulted" someone's religion in my post. Secondly, I still state my opinion, you can't insult something which doesn't exist (or still not proven).
I said it MIGHT be insulting to someone, not that you actually did insult anyone.
And you say you can't insult someone simply by bashing his beliefs.. Why of course you can. Would you tell a kid who believes he will become a soccer star that he lacks talent and generally, sucks? Wouldn't that be rude, to bash one's dreams so badly? Especially since you don't know whether he will become one or not. You're just assuming as much as he does.
By bashing religion, you bash dreams of afterlife, for example. It may be a bit sad to read such posts for people who firmly believe in such things. Think of the kid. Would he be happy if you told him "there is no sport career for him"?
Technically you wouldn't insult him, but it would be rude.
Same with a theist.
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Minion
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posted March 15, 2009 04:00 PM |
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Would you be a Christian now if you had been born in Afghanistan?
The discussion is hard to follow, as other people (bak) speak only about the possibility of some higher power, with possibly no known attributes. Where as I believe that Angelito is speaking against a God with attributes, that is, against Elodin's arguments.
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xerdux
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posted March 15, 2009 05:32 PM |
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Most people are religious because their parents/country/society "forced" (maybe its nicer to say "influenced") them to believe in something.
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TheDeath
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posted March 15, 2009 05:50 PM |
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Quote:
And your example with my wife doesn't fit at all, coz I can "prove" her existance, be it personal or by photo.
While still no one can prove the existance of God.
Why people dismiss videos of "God" and "miracles" so fast 
They give reasons for their comments like "Photoshop", what does that mean? I don't understand 
Quote:
Most people are religious because their parents/country/society "forced" (maybe its nicer to say "influenced") them to believe in something.
Yeah we all know how Jesus forced everyone too!
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xerdux
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posted March 15, 2009 05:59 PM |
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I didnt say anything about Jesucks (lol)
But many parents learn their children to believe in some religion.
And also religious people do force other people to believe in their religion. This might not be true now - but it was just a couple of hundred years ago.
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TheDeath
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posted March 15, 2009 06:03 PM |
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Xerox, I was forced to learn a lot of pointless stuff in school too. Does that mean I like those subjects now? (religion is also a subject, for example)
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angelito
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posted March 15, 2009 06:23 PM |
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Quote:
Of course you claim things which are not known already. You're claiming that there is no higher power, which is far from being known.
This is not true bak. I have never said "There is no God!" I have said "his existance isn't prooven yet, and I don't care about". I think that's quite a difference.
I just have a problem with people who talk about God as if they wouldn't BELIEVE he exists, but they KNOW he exists. And I think even if non believers and believers have many different points of view, on one point we can agree upon: No one (who can talk to us) has seen God as of yet.
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TheDeath
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posted March 15, 2009 06:24 PM |
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Quote:
No one (who can talk to us) has seen heard God as of yet.
I know plenty
whether I believe them or not... that's different matter.
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angelito
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posted March 15, 2009 06:26 PM |
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*yawn*
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baklava
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posted March 15, 2009 06:49 PM |
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@Angelito
Ah, I misunderstood you then.
Fair enough.
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JollyJoker
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posted March 15, 2009 11:09 PM |
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Quote:
I just have a problem with people who talk about God as if they wouldn't BELIEVE he exists, but they KNOW he exists. And I think even if non believers and believers have many different points of view, on one point we can agree upon: No one (who can talk to us) has seen God as of yet.
That's because you - like most - mistake knowing for believing and vice versa.
You know, what YOU describe as believing or belief is more like hope: as if they WOULD LIKE god to exist. But that's not belief.
Belief means something else completely. You have to consider that no one KNOWS anything in any ABSOLUTE way. We feel real, but we could be just a very complex imagination. We miss a yardstick, the axis to measure things against.
That's why we actually KNOW nothing for sure, everything we do know is dependent on something else, respectively, shifting the absolute validity of evidence only further away.
"Knowledge", therefore, is relative. Someone who thinks they really KNOW could be called ignorant.
Belief simply means "being certain" which is as close as it comes to KNOWING as it gets.
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Lith-Maethor
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posted March 15, 2009 11:19 PM |
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fail...
I know a book will fall if I let go of it in mid-air
I believe its because an invisible hand is pushing it down
see the difference?
the "you don't really know anything" argument belongs back in Planescape: Torment... or in philosophy, either way... too weak for this discussion imho
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TheDeath
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posted March 15, 2009 11:29 PM |
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Quote:
I know a book will fall if I let go of it in mid-air
What if it won't?
In fact, what you're saying means you have a religion.
We can agree upon the fact that science CHANGES, right? I mean, it's one of the REQUIREMENTS for science to CHANGE (since it is not infallible, like religion, and it's in fact what makes it different -- and atheists call that a virtue, I don't blame them).
Does knowledge change? Does truth change? Nope.
"We have no right to assume that any physical laws exist, or if they have existed up until now, that they will continue to exist in a similar manner in the future." - Max Planck
Quote:
the "you don't really know anything" argument belongs back in Planescape: Torment... or in philosophy, either way... too weak for this discussion imho
Or to scientists like Planck
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baklava
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posted March 16, 2009 12:12 AM |
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...or in philosophy, either way... too weak for this discussion imho
Well since we can't really prove much through scientific means in this discussion, I think philosophy might be the way to go. Unless, of course, we decide to follow the "if there's heaven it sux cause there's no metallica there LOL JESUCKS" kind of argumentation which seems to grow more and more present in this thread.
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Minion
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posted March 16, 2009 12:50 AM |
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Quote:
What if it won't?
In fact, what you're saying means you have a religion.
Yes, I think we have to just give up and start worshiping God, as we can't know if anything exists, thus God must exist. [/sarcasm]
We do know that the book will fall, until the laws of physics change. Since laws of physics has not been noticed to change ever in the history of human race, it is pointless to assume that. I mean, why would you?
And so what if Planck had read his Hume well? What does that prove? Read Kant for a change. 
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