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e-lysander
Known Hero
Lysander
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posted August 26, 2009 07:56 AM |
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Elodin, you don't seem to take issue with the vast amount of theists that give so much crap to us atheists.
You see... unlike Atheism, those religions have it coming (and everyone knows you mention all three for the sake of seeming like there's more being attacked, but you and I both know you don't give a rat's ass about two out of three of those religions being persecuted).
Religions have caused the most deaths, by far, in the world. All major wars were in the name of religion. The crusades? WWII? Do the math. And don't bother mentioning guys like Stalin and Pol Pot who were atheists, because their deeds were done not in the name of atheism, but in the name of their owned messed up Marxist and Communist agendas. Not to mention Kim Jong il, whose ideals were focused on the hierarchy of reverence and almost worship of his family ("Dear Leader!").
I'm not saying you or any well-meaning theist is a problem, I'm just saying... don't complain about some things Dawkins has said, because, whether you like it or not, they're justified.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted August 26, 2009 08:28 AM |
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Religions have caused the most deaths, by far, in the world.
Best comment would be something like "lmfao". You know what caused most deaths in the world? Aging and diseases. Human made? War. What was the real reasons for wars? Religion? No. Economics, ambitions? yes.
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All major wars were in the name of religion. The crusades? WWII? Do the math.
You are in serious need of some real non-bigoted history lessons. WWII had nothing to do with religion. Crusades? Funny. People who know **** about them keep mouthing about them. The real reason was "we want to conquer the rich countries". Like in every other war. But in this, religion was just an excuse to start it. Nobody gave a **** about religion back then when being the ruler. Actally, most of the rulers who accepted state religion kept secretly worshiping their pagan gods. Why to blame something that wasn't even on the mind of the ruler for his decisions?
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And don't bother mentioning guys like Stalin and Pol Pot who were atheists, because their deeds were done not in the name of atheism, but in the name of their owned messed up Marxist and Communist agendas. Not to mention Kim Jong il, whose ideals were focused on the hierarchy of reverence and almost worship of his family ("Dear Leader!").
What's wrong, it's not convenient for you to see people pointing out atheistic leaders? Because "atheism had nothing to do with war" ? I say religion didn't have a damn connection to war either. Using it as argument is as pointless as using atheism as a reason for Stalin to kill people.
Why so much bad logic? Relax man. If I want to kill you, I will. You can say it's because I'm a religious freak, but you can also say it's because the weather is bad or because you forgot to shave this morning. Instead of searching for random scapegoats (in this particular case, you have your favorite scapegoat already), just accept the fact that people kill because they want to, and they start wars because the want to. Not because their religion tells them so, because almost every religion tells the exact opposite "thou shalt not murder".
What the HECK is wrong with you people anyway? Religion says you shouldn't do it. People do it anyway, and you say it's because of religion who says you shouldn't do it in the first place.
It's like blaming the damned "law of the road" when you crash while you were breaking every rule of it, like driving 200 mph on a 40mph limit road and overtaking where it's prohibited - four cars at once. Is it the fault of the law, or is it YOU who can't cope with a single rule?
Think of it. There is absolutely ZERO LOGIC in your (people with such thinking, I mean) reasoning. Sorry.
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted August 26, 2009 09:34 AM |
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Elodin, you don't seem to take issue with the vast amount of theists that give so much crap to us atheists.
Perhaps you could give examples of people giving atheists ****? What I see in free societies is certain atheists trying to interfere with the right of others to practice their religion.
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You see... unlike Atheism, those religions have it coming (and everyone knows you mention all three for the sake of seeming like there's more being attacked, but you and I both know you don't give a rat's ass about two out of three of those religions being persecuted).
Actually I have stated many times that everyone should be free to practice their own religion, including atheism. And I feel a close kinship with Judaism because I consider Christians to be Jews.
Why do you claim "religions have it coming?" Christianity is responsible for modern science, schools, universities, hospitals, orphanages, ect. Christianity has many thousands of social help organizations to help people with various aspects of thier lives. I don't see atheist organizations feeding the hungry and running homeless shelters.
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Religions have caused the most deaths, by far, in the world.
I'm sorry, but you can't back that up at all. The most intentional deaths in the modern time have been caused by atheist tyrants. And very few wars could be considered to be religious in nature.
Wars are mostly started by selfish people who are acting against the Word of God.
Jesus said his kingdom is not a political kingdom so anyone claiming to fight a war in his name is a liar.
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Joh 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
Wars have mostly been about land and resource grabs. Some atheist tyrants did internal cleansings of religion to try to eliminate religion from their nation.
You say Stalin and Pol Pot were not influenced by atheism but they had the stated goal of eliminating religion from their nations and burned churches, banned Bibles, ect.
Yes, I will complain about what Dawkins said because his statements about religion are mostly outright false and bigotted.
And I will continue to deny that any Christian hates or murders anyone.
Quote:
1Jn 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
1Jn 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
Jesus said to love, pray for, and do good even to our enemies.
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Shyranis
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted August 26, 2009 10:01 AM |
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Actually I have stated many times that everyone should be free to practice their own religion, including atheism. And I feel a close kinship with Judaism because I consider Christians to be Jews.
By the same token, I also consider Muslims to be Christian ^_^
Jewish people tend to believe that Jesus is not the Messiah and use the same holy books (at least the Old Testament), Muslims believe Jesus was a prophet who should be respected, and use the same holy books (Old Testament, most the New Testament).
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Wars are mostly started by selfish people who are acting against the Word of God.
Very true.
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Jesus said his kingdom is not a political kingdom so anyone claiming to fight a war in his name is a liar.
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Joh 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
Yes indeed, yes indeed.
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Wars have mostly been about land and resource grabs.
Again right.
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You say Stalin and Pol Pot were not influenced by atheism but they had the stated goal of eliminating religion from their nations and burned churches, banned Bibles, ect.
Influenced yes, but their main purpose was worshiping their doctrine as their choice of god. They used their false tenets to set their plans into motion, much as some tyrants in the past have used their religions. It's no different, a corrupt bureaucrat is a corrupt bureaucrat. Pol Pot was so stupid and his doctrine so horrible, he burned all books, killed anybody that could read, anybody who looked like they could read (wore glasses), anybody with an education, or could speak another language.
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And I will continue to deny that any Christian hates or murders anyone.
Any true follower anyway. There will always be false Christians (or false practicianers of nearly any religion) who sully the name of a legitimate religion by killing and raping.
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1Jn 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
1Jn 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
Jesus said to love, pray for, and do good even to our enemies.
I don't even need to say anything here.
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del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
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posted August 26, 2009 06:20 PM |
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Christianity is responsible for modern science, schools, universities, hospitals, orphanages, ect.
The Church hanged everybody who did some research or dared to question them, they have killed countless people who was in the pursuit of truth and knowledge(what science is all about).
Greeks had decent schools ages before the Christians, and schools them-self are a ages old thing. So what does it have to do with the dark ages?
Universities are nothing but an expansion of schools, which again got nothing to do with the dark ages. The greeks was also quite famous for them. And besides, even places like Japan where there was no Christian influence what so ever there was schools.
Hospitals? I know a lot of priests and nuns and monks was into helping people(but so was many other), but the modern medicine they got nothing to do with. So what does it have to do with the dark age?
So do you have any sources on that Christianity DID shape up all that you claim, or is it just your word? Or just random bible quoting?
Orphanages, I agree on that one. But its not that special, but I do kind of agree.
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Christianity has many thousands of social help organizations to help people with various aspects of their lives.I don't see atheist organizations feeding the hungry and running homeless shelters.
I see them all the time. Leger Uten Grenser(Doctors without borders), Red Cross, and lots more. Well most of them are "religion neutral", there are however some real raw atheist help organisations out there still.
But their non-religious, and that is my point. It got nothing to do with Christians, nor really religion. I do for the most of the time see a gigantic horde of agnostics running around and helping people.
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted August 26, 2009 07:08 PM |
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Edited by Elodin at 19:11, 26 Aug 2009.
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By the same token, I also consider Muslims to be Christian ^_^
A Christian has to worship Christ as God. Muslims say he is only a prophet.
Jesus was a Jew, the disciples and apostoles were Jews, all of the early Christians were Jews. Christians are Jews who recognize Christ has come and that a New Covenant has been put into place.
Being Jew has always been a religious thing as far as God is concerned, not a racial thing. That is even stated in the Old Covenant writings. The prophets said true circumcision is of the heart, not of the flesh.
Quote:
Deu 10:16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.
Jer 4:4 Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings.
New Testament:
Quote:
Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
Old Testament
Quote:
Deu 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
Deu 6:5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
New Testament
Quote:
Mat 22:35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,
Mat 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
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Shyranis
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted August 26, 2009 08:10 PM |
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Edited by Shyranis at 20:11, 26 Aug 2009.
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Quote:
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By the same token, I also consider Muslims to be Christian ^_^
A Christian has to worship Christ as God. Muslims say he is only a prophet.
Jesus was a Jew, the disciples and apostoles were Jews, all of the early Christians were Jews. Christians are Jews who recognize Christ has come and that a New Covenant has been put into place.
Being Jew has always been a religious thing as far as God is concerned, not a racial thing. That is even stated in the Old Covenant writings. The prophets said true circumcision is of the heart, not of the flesh.
Quote:
Deu 10:16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.
Jer 4:4 Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings.
New Testament:
Quote:
Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
Old Testament
Quote:
Deu 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
Deu 6:5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
New Testament
Quote:
Mat 22:35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,
Mat 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
So I stand corrected, Muslims are Jews that see Christ as a prophet instead of a nothing.
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted August 26, 2009 09:05 PM |
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Christianity is responsible for modern science, schools, universities, hospitals, orphanages, ect.
This made me laugh a bit. I remember there was a time where a guy called Gallileo Gallilei had to repeal his idea of "earth isn't the center, and it turns around the sun". Christianity had their fingers in this case I heard 
Christianity is responsible for schools, and also for death children. Just remember what we found in the old catacombs...masses of skeletons of babies....
Christianity is also responsible for churches...and of course for preachers who abused ministrants (ok ok...after we got knowledge of those cases, those preachers weren't christians anymore..."if you are nice, you belong to our family, when you acted bad, you have never been part of us" )
Imho, Christians don't love the truth...if it harms their belief 
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xerdux
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
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posted August 26, 2009 09:11 PM |
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Christianity is responsible for modern science, schools, universities, hospitals, orphanages, ect
HAHAHA xD This is the funniest thing I have heard this month xD
And what about old cultures or non-christian countries then? Did your god beam down hospitals for them? xD
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DagothGares
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
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posted August 26, 2009 09:25 PM |
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Quote:
Gallileo Gallilei
was a christian and wanted to conform his theories around the vision of the world according to dante. he had a lot of toroubles with what science showed him and his religion.
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Elodin
Promising
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Free Thinker
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posted August 27, 2009 02:36 AM |
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Edited by Elodin at 02:37, 27 Aug 2009.
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Imho, Christians don't love the truth...if it harms their belief
Imho atheists laugh at the truth...if it harms their beliefs.
Also, the Bible clearly says anyone who claims to know God but who hates or murders is not a Christian. You don't get to define who a Christian, God does.
About Christianity and the birth of modern science. I recommend you read the below article.
http://www.icr.org/article/christianity-cause-modern-science/
Quote:
Scholars affirm that modern science arose among the theologians, monks, and professors of Medieval and Renaissance Catholic universities and monasteries.
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DagothGares
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
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posted August 27, 2009 03:07 AM |
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Scholars affirm that modern science arose among the theologians, monks, and professors of Medieval and Renaissance Catholic universities and monasteries.
And greek philosophers, intellectuals from byzantium, muslim, indian and chinese invetors and philosophers and of course don't forget the romans and the sumerians, but I'm sure monk orders provided much more to the overall scale of things... (last few words were sarcastic by the way)
I'll admit that monasteries did a good job at keeping written language intact,but that's what they did: preserve it and nothing else. Nothing changed the moment Charlemagne was crowned emperor of france and the Great Schism happened. You see, if anyone believed in anything differently from the pontiff, the pontiff would be endangered, hence witch burnings, crusades, heretic-burnings, execution of orders that believed Jesus wasn't a very rich guy (franciscans) domnicans etc. now, the moment the church came out of power, around the time rulers decared themselves elected by God and effectively gotten rid of the pope, science started to evolve again through individuals like galileo, copernicus and Descartes and such and such.
Some were still religious of course, but with others they didn't feel that need anymore. Now, I'm not going to say we owe much to them, but what little basis we had in the middle ages we owe to monasteries. Of course, when byzantium was captured and all those greek scholars came back, our knowledge increased exponentially, primarily because we got the use of ancient greek again and were able to read books of long forgotten lore. We also got some more muslim scientists, which didn't hurt at all.
Now, let's get back to the original quote:
modern science: disagree, scientific method was very uncatholic
schools: agree, was needed to quell protestants
universities: Agree, jesuit orders
hospitals: disagree, hippocrates
orphanages: not sure, though I think Islam were the first with social services, like giving money to the poor was actually one of their tenets.
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I don't see atheist organizations feeding the hungry and running homeless shelters.
I do.
Read your article. Not really solid, sorry to say. I admit my knowledge of the new age is a bit fuzzy (except for romanticist and realist philosophies), but my medieval knowledge and knowledge of the classical era may help.
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neither Galileo nor Copernicus (who maintained the sun was at the center of the solar system), were unbelievers
The fact they were christians didn't really help their research.
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should be conceived as linear and potentially quantifiable.
Thi was not so in medieval Europe, time was cyclical. sunrise -sunset, work-sleep routine, birth-baptism-death cycles. Through medieval paintings you can grasp that tehse concepts were heavily entrenched into people's minds, especially amongst regular people. Kings also came and went to maintain a nation. Everything was in a natural order that would not change. there were classes and they would be there forever, no one would become a nobleman and no one would become a commoner on their own. Also, I like it that they give no reason why it is necessary other than the reason that "change is impossible hurr hurr".
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Third, the organismic view of nature hinders the development of science.
again, why is this different from medieval europe?
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while the scientists must not deny the possibility of religious truth.
Why is that necessary?
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seventh, man needs to be seen as fundamentally different from the rest of nature,
Why is this necessary?
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Christianity's worldview contained ideas about the nature of the universe which drove out pagan concepts that had prevented the development of science.
and replaced them with new ones.
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Islamic science might have become self-sustaining, if its holy book, the Quran, had not emphasized God's will and power above His reason
This is not so different from christianity.
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empiricist ("practical")
empirical doesn't mean practical.
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shyranis
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted August 27, 2009 03:13 AM |
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Edited by shyranis at 03:42, 27 Aug 2009.
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About Christianity and the birth of modern science. I recommend you read the below article.
http://www.icr.org/article/christianity-cause-modern-science/
Quote:
Scholars affirm that modern science arose among the theologians, monks, and professors of Medieval and Renaissance Catholic universities and monasteries.
Says the Creation Science website.
I've got an athiest website here that dubunks those claims. Only posted to balance things out.
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From its very beginning, the Church has served as the largest stumbling block against scientific progress in the history of mankind. When Constantine established orthodox Christianity in 325 CE (at the Council of Nicaea), scientific investigation virtually stopped. Up until that time, Greek and Roman science and medicine stood at the pinnacle of reasoned thought. With the aimed destruction of any thought that went against religious dogma, the Christians tried to destroy every pagan and scientific literature including the great libraries of the world.
Regardless, the actual truth lies somewhere in the middle. Saying one religion is entirely responsible for modern science is like saying cigarettes are entirely responsible for all of the world's cancers. Many people are responsible, we have to thank Islam largely too because modern science and math would be impossible without the Arabic numeral system or their spread of libraries and universities throughout the Arab world while Europe was in the dark ages. We also need to thank the ancient Phoenicians for their alphabet. But it's the collective work of many people throughout the ages. No one group can claim sole responsibility, to do otherwise is fallacy. I'm not saying many notable Christians have not contributed to modern science, but they are certainly not even remotely near being alone.
Edit:
Somehow this 1902 essay seems familiar.
Also here's a Muslim point of view.
Just being fair =D
I looked through a lot of pages. How come so many creationist pages only present Christianity if creation science is supposed to represent all religions that believe in a higher power?
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Elodin
Promising
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Free Thinker
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posted August 27, 2009 04:24 AM |
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@ DagothGares
Dude, Islam came after Christianity by a number of centuries.
And the fact is modern science was born in the Christian West, not in the Orient or Middle East.
Oh, could you name the atheist organizations that you say are feeding the poor and giving shelter to the homeless please, since you claim they exist. I'm talking specificly atheist organizations.
I'm not sure why you say the scientific method is "unCatholic."
Clicky
Quote:
"The chief glory of medieval medicine was undoubtedly in the organization of hospitals, creating mental institutions, professionalizing medical nursing, which had its organization in the teachings of Christ."
Clicky
A bishop first proposed the inductive experimental method.
Clicky
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Christians were the first ones who envisioned the universe as following laws that reflected the rationality of God the creator. These laws were believed to be accessible to man because man is created in the image of God and shares a spark of the divine reason. No wonder, then, that the first universities and observatories were sponsored by the church and run by priests.
No wonder also that the greatest scientists of the West - Copernicus, Kepler, Galileo, Boyle, Newton, Leibniz, Gassendi, Pascal, Mersenne, Cuvier, Harvey, Dalton, Faraday, Joule, Lyell, Lavoisier, Priestley, Kelvin, Ampere, Steno, Pasteur, Maxwell, Planck, Mendel, and Lemaitre - were Christians. Gassendi, Mersenne and Lamaitre were priests. Several of them viewed their research as demonstrating God's creative genius as manifested in his creation
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DagothGares
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
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posted August 27, 2009 04:55 AM |
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Dude, Islam came after Christianity by a number of centuries.
This is the point where you make your point.
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I'm talking specificly atheist organizations.
WTH? Well, probably you mean anti-theist organisations and the point of these organisations is debunk theism. I mean there are lots of secular socialist organisations.
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I'm not sure why you say the scientific method is "unCatholic."
As I said: the scientific method is about questioning everything until you get an answer. Questions in middle ages leads to burning.
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No wonder, then, that the first universities and observatories were sponsored by the church and run by priests.
There were of course no such things as academies and universities in Athens, Alexandria and Rome. Those are lies. Created by atheists.
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And the fact is modern science was born in the Christian West
in the secular West, m i rite? 
The first person ever to have conducted an experiment was a pharaoh. those people died out around the time christians came a poppin', so I doubt he was the bishop thou speaketh of.
and the article you linked has one of the most awful titles I ever read... It reminds of that sermon the protestant priest gave when we visited that church in Norwich... Mind-numbingly awful... Seriously, it doesn't get much more bitter than that. "you should be thankful or all the good things we give you!" it says, gloating and unaccepting of the fact that without them it wouldn't be very different, anyway.
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Doomforge
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posted August 27, 2009 10:21 AM |
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Did you know? originally, after proving witchcraft, catholic courts were obliged to give the "witches" to secular courts (I use the term court although it could've been a middle age equivalent of any kind, ofc.) to pass the penalty.
it many cases it were the secular courts who gave death penalty.
Not that I like Catholic church very much (I'm a protestant) but they sometimes take way to much blame. Like for inquisiton, which killed an estimated amount of 2000 people over 300 years in the heart of inquisition, Portugal. over 300 years! (Documented number of kills: around 1400, I believe. The rest is estimated). That was like, one day of village raid by a random marauder group. I'm not saying it's justified either, but it's vastly exaggerated. I've even heard it "killed more people than WWII" Lmfao. People really need to learn 
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 27, 2009 11:24 AM |
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Dude, it's not the KILLINGS the cursed inquisition is notorious for, it's the TORTURE, and the torture in the name of god at that. We are talking about people deemed "posessed", tortured to admit - and all that to their own good: to save their soul by admitting to their sins, so that JC may have mercy on them.
Think about the madness that raged there, when a successful test for witchcraft will kill the tested (who has the consolation to be with god after that since they were innocent).
That is not to mention the absurdity of the defense you put up there: "Your honor, the claims are vastly overstated, the inquisition didn't kill millions, like some claim, it were only a few thousand DOCUMENTED, spread over a few centuries. They hardly matter in the big picture. Compared with the victims the Black Death claimed the Inquisition was harmless."
Dammit, Doom, they were supposed to SHINE A LIGHT to humanity, not drown them in superstitious fear, suspicion, and denunciation. Which is what they did - quite contrary to what is claimed here. The Renaissance is called so for a certain reason, you know.
There is just no excuse for swaying so infernally far from course there.
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Doomforge
Admirable
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Retired Hero
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posted August 27, 2009 11:40 AM |
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Did I say there is any form of excuse?
I merely said people greatly exaggerate. There is a difference between killing millions and killing 1400 documented people in 300 years. I think you agree. I'm just tired of people exaggerating.
I'm aware of the methods and I obviously am not a supported of inquisition. Why would I be? I would be called a heretic and burnt anyway if I lived in those years, protestantism wasn't something they liked once it popped up.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 27, 2009 11:59 AM |
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Doom, I have no idea where you get your numbers from and why you stop with Portugal. "Inquisition" is a very broad and unspecified term, and the Catholic church used it against all kinds of heresy, the porotestants as well as the burnings of witches - which was indeed mostly done by secular courts, but only because the Church had planted the idea of it into the heads of people.
"Millions" isn't incorrect, if you look at the victims who died as a direct consequence of the workings of the Church.
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Doomforge
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Retired Hero
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posted August 27, 2009 12:31 PM |
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I know protestants were considered the devil in a man. That's why I have no reason to defend Catholic Inquisition at all.
I'm just saying we shouldn't exaggerate THAT much.
Where did I get the numbers from? I'm really sorry but I don't remember. (Corribus would bang his head against the wall here, I believe  Nothing worse to state something and NOT back it up, yeah..). All I can say is there is enough knowledge in libraries or even in the internet, not very hard to find. Sounds lame but I honestly don't remember, that was something I was interested in like 8 years ago.
And why Portugal and the surrounding lands? Because those were the heart of the problem. Biggest activity and stuff like that.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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