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TitaniumAlloy
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Professional
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posted May 05, 2007 04:34 PM |
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as I said, the creator would be even MORE unlikely to be there than the aeroplane itself 
but theres a theory that theres a whole bunch of parallel universes and this is the only one we CAN exist in..
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John says to live above hell.
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necrorevan
Bad-mannered
Hired Hero
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posted May 05, 2007 04:43 PM |
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I am not presuming that I can change your mind.
But hey if we knew God exist thanks to a fact, than there is no such thing as faith.
Faith is when you believe in something. Note that I am not talking about Blind Faith. I too have questioned and doubted but it's Descartes said: doubt can be constructive and the doubts I had actually consolidated my Faith.
The question if God exists can never be answered but that doesn't mean it's not worth discussing.
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SwampLord
Supreme Hero
Lord of the Swamp
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posted May 05, 2007 05:10 PM |
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I look at it this way.
If I'm right, I get to laugh at you.
If you're right, you don't get to laugh at me. Who's the winner?
Also, faith is about believing, not seeing. If you don't understand that, you're probably better off not believing.
One more thing. The "big bang"- where did the matter that sparked off the big bang come from, if there was nothing there?
On the subject of parallel universes- You belive in those, but have no proof- what does that sound like?
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necrorevan
Bad-mannered
Hired Hero
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posted May 05, 2007 08:33 PM |
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Swamplord: "If I'm right, I get to laugh at you.
If you're right, you don't get to laugh at me. Who's the winner?"
This reminds me of the theory of Pascal:
Believe in God.
Should He exist than you go to paradise.
If not, than you won't be able to regret it since there is no afterlife
Thus you have nothing to loose plus you get a "50%" to go to paradise. 
I know this doesn't promote "true Faith" (I don't function that way)
but you can't say that he is wrong or illogical (since apparently you trust only logic).
This theory is aimed at people who can't make up their minds.
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Ecoris
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted May 05, 2007 09:03 PM |
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I firmly believe that the universe, Earth and any living creature couldn't possibly exist by coincidence
I always wonder why people can't see the obvious flaw in this argument; if we didn't exist the argument could never have been made.
Also, the argument about probability is only valid under the assumption that there is no divine creator. And even then it proves nothing.
Really, is your faith based on a measure of probability??
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bixie
Promising
Legendary Hero
my common sense is tingling!
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posted May 05, 2007 10:29 PM |
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no one is right, and no one is wrong.
the world can be understood if you just follow a quote from a famous character in a book.
ok, Mr. finch, in your own words
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you can only understand another person if you put yourself in their shoes, when you climb inside their skin and walk around in it
now i am not promoting killing a scientist or a religious man and wearing their skin, but if you do that, we will come closer to finding the answer than if we just yell at each other.
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Love, Laugh, Learn, Live.
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necrorevan
Bad-mannered
Hired Hero
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posted May 05, 2007 10:36 PM |
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Quote:
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I firmly believe that the universe, Earth and any living creature couldn't possibly exist by coincidence
I always wonder why people can't see the obvious flaw in this argument; if we didn't exist the argument could never have been made.
Also, the argument about probability is only valid under the assumption that there is no divine creator. And even then it proves nothing.
Really, is your faith based on a measure of probability??
Ecoris don't get me wrong, my faith is far from being based on probabilities.
Like I said beforehand, faith, true faith is believing because you think\feel you should and not because of numbers or odds.
It's actually hard do explain but if you have it, you know you do.
And I know this argument isn't perfect but then again is there any argument that denies or proves God's existence ? I think not.
These types of arguments like Pascal's are aimed at people who can't make up their mind.
And the question of God's existence will remain purely speculative and philosophical, not that it's uninteresting mind you.
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TitaniumAlloy
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Professional
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posted May 06, 2007 03:14 AM |
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@Swamplord:
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I look at it this way.
If I'm right, I get to laugh at you.
If you're right, you don't get to laugh at me. Who's the winner?
Me, clearly.
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Also, faith is about believing, not seeing. If you don't understand that, you're probably better off not believing.
There's that word again, faith.
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One more thing. The "big bang"- where did the matter that sparked off the big bang come from, if there was nothing there?
I can't say, I wasn't there.
I think the theory is that there was a singularity there.
We don't know.
Doesn't mean we should give up trying to find out either and just take the easy path- "GOD DID IT!!!!!!!!" end of story.
And where did god come from?
'He was always there'
Well maybe that's the answer to where the matter came from.
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On the subject of parallel universes- You belive in those, but have no proof- what does that sound like?
It sounds ridiculous. But I never said I believe in them.
@Necro:
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I am not presuming that I can change your mind.
I wish you could
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But hey if we knew God exist thanks to a fact, than there is no such thing as faith.
Faith is when you believe in something. Note that I am not talking about Blind Faith. I too have questioned and doubted but it's Descartes said: doubt can be constructive and the doubts I had actually consolidated my Faith.
Why is faith a good thing? Because the word sounds cool?
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The question if God exists can never be answered but that doesn't mean it's not worth discussing.
Here we are, discussing.
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This reminds me of the theory of Pascal:
Believe in God.
Should He exist than you go to paradise.
If not, than you won't be able to regret it since there is no afterlife
Thus you have nothing to loose plus you get a "50%" to go to paradise.
Wow! What a great reason to believe in a superior being!
So that on the off-chance that he exists we get to score a free ticket to sunshine and lollypops!
If there is a god I don't think he'd let these gamblers and selfish people into his heaven This is exactly what I was talking about before when The Death called it childish behavior.
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I know this doesn't promote "true Faith" (I don't function that way)
but you can't say that he is wrong or illogical (since apparently you trust only logic).
I don't trust ONLY logic.
I just don't trust the word of some random guy who tells me to worship something that clearly isn't there.
And logic is a good thing though. I don't know why you discard it so. It helps alot in life
If there is no afterlife, he has wasted his life devoted to some false god, as a fool for the words of a strange man who came up with the idea in the first place. What a great way to spend your only life.
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This theory is aimed at people who can't make up their minds.
Good luck to them
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And I know this argument isn't perfect but then again is there any argument that denies or proves God's existence ?
We don't need to disprove god.
You only need to prove that things ARE there.
Otherwise we would spend our lives disproving all kinds of things that aren't there before we could finally think that we are safe
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I think not.
These types of arguments like Pascal's are aimed at people who can't make up their mind.
Aimed at people trying to secure their spot in heaven so they can keep living longer as themselves. Not people who love god.
@bixie:
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no one is right, and no one is wrong.
Untrue.
One of has got to be right
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now i am not promoting killing a scientist or a religious man and wearing their skin, but if you do that, we will come closer to finding the answer than if we just yell at each other.
Now now bixie. No ones yelling at each other. It's a discussion
And I've lived as a believer before
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John says to live above hell.
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necrorevan
Bad-mannered
Hired Hero
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posted May 06, 2007 11:23 AM |
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Titaniumalloy:"If there is no afterlife, he has wasted his life devoted to some false god, as a fool for the words of a strange man who came up with the idea in the first place. What a great way to spend your only life."
Here I disagree with you.
Waste? Religion never wastes your life and is not an obstacle to happiness. It gives you sense in life.
Even if one day God is disproved I will still believe in Him for he asks us to do good things in life, helpful not only to us but to our entire community.
It's not like God asks us to do Human sacrifices or spend your life in a desert preying for him (even if some believes He does) or forces women to wear something they don't want to (like hijab); God asks us to be reasonable, wise, just and logical (I didn't mean that I distrust logic).
About happiness: I heard (quite a thousand times by a certain individual 'cough ashrah cough') that God and religion takes away "fun".
I for one have a clear dinstinction between fun and happiness, so logically I want happiness over fun.
Fun is related to passions and desirs that will get you in a vicious circle: I want to.....I did it......I still want to....etc
Whereas happiness doesn't function that way.
True, happiness IS subjective but it SHOULD NOT be and that's where religion comes along with reason: to unify the idea of happiness as it was meant to be.
The point is that faith in God gives you a purpose to do good and to be happy, and I am not talking about paradise but rather being pround of your self and doing good for good's sake.
So believing in Him is not a waste but I agree that some intrepretations (false and stupid I might add) is a waste of life such as being a Hermit preying only and doing no good to others and
the hijab\nikhab which is a perversion of Islam by certain, rather jealous, idiots.
I hope you like it even if I am probably being insulted by islamists, hermits (do they still exist?) and of course lovely atheists 'cough ashrah cough'
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bixie
Promising
Legendary Hero
my common sense is tingling!
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posted May 06, 2007 11:33 AM |
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nercoevan, do you believe that god is a comfort to us?
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Love, Laugh, Learn, Live.
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necrorevan
Bad-mannered
Hired Hero
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posted May 06, 2007 11:44 AM |
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nercoevan, do you believe that god is a comfort to us?
No bixie I do not think God is only a comfort but you can't say it's wrong to say that He does provide us some comforts.
By comforts I don't mean: "Ah thinking is not my game so I will shut up and do good" but like I said God gives us a purpose, a direction then it's all up to you, your efforts, your reason and your will.
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bixie
Promising
Legendary Hero
my common sense is tingling!
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posted May 06, 2007 11:53 AM |
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because the world is a brutal place without a sense of purpose.
you know what, Nercoevan, despite our religious differences, i think that we are going to get along!
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Love, Laugh, Learn, Live.
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necrorevan
Bad-mannered
Hired Hero
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posted May 06, 2007 12:04 PM |
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Quote:
because the world is a brutal place without a sense of purpose.
you know what, Nercoevan, despite our religious differences, i think that we are going to get along!
Of course, and sorry about "I pity the fool who doesn't believe in God" post.
I didn't mean to offend you. What I meant that there are some people who don't believe in God because they think HE takes away fun and is not cool, childish or whatever.
But clearly you are no fool since you use your reason and logic.
And yes the world is a dangerous place without a purpose.
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bixie
Promising
Legendary Hero
my common sense is tingling!
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posted May 06, 2007 12:21 PM |
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actually, i do believe in god... or gods
if you read further back, you'll find out i'm actually a Shaman
i'm not sure about the logic or reason part, but compared to Ashrah, i suppose that is true. on the other hand, you could say that both a chiwawa and a doberman bites but its a very different wound.
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Love, Laugh, Learn, Live.
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TitaniumAlloy
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Professional
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posted May 06, 2007 12:25 PM |
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Quote:
Titaniumalloy:"If there is no afterlife, he has wasted his life devoted to some false god, as a fool for the words of a strange man who came up with the idea in the first place. What a great way to spend your only life."
Here I disagree with you.
Waste? Religion never wastes your life and is not an obstacle to happiness. It gives you sense in life.
What about the people who spend hours upon hours sitting in church or litterally months praying and doing other senseless rituals.
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Even if one day God is disproved I will still believe in Him for he asks us to do good things in life, helpful not only to us but to our entire community.
Sure.
I agree with you here, only that you don't need to believe in god to do good.
You can follow what he teaches without following the idea of a big man who made the world.
But to believe in something that isnt there (like you said, if he was disproved) is pointless.
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It's not like God asks us to do Human sacrifices or spend your life in a desert preying for him (even if some believes He does) or forces women to wear something they don't want to (like hijab); God asks us to be reasonable, wise, just and logical (I didn't mean that I distrust logic).
How do you know god asks this?
The bible or other religious texts are the only way you could know, and they are the exact things which DO tell you do to the things you mentioned.
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The point is that
These words are a welcome change in this thread
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faith in God gives you a purpose to do good and to be happy, and I am not talking about paradise but rather being pround of your self and doing good for good's sake.
Unrelated to god.
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So believing in Him is not a waste but I agree that some intrepretations (false and stupid I might add) is a waste of life such as being a Hermit preying only and doing no good to others and
the hijab\nikhab which is a perversion of Islam by certain, rather jealous, idiots.
What about ramadan, fasting, washing feet, communion, baptism, etc? Very common rituals
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I hope you like it even if I am probably being insulted by islamists, hermits (do they still exist?) and of course lovely atheists 'cough ashrah cough'
Ashrah is allowed to have her beliefs.
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No bixie I do not think God is only a comfort but you can't say it's wrong to say that He does provide us some comforts.
By comforts I don't mean: "Ah thinking is not my game so I will shut up and do good" but like I said God gives us a purpose, a direction then it's all up to you, your efforts, your reason and your will.
Purpose and direction to what?
So that you'll end up in heaven?
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John says to live above hell.
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necrorevan
Bad-mannered
Hired Hero
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posted May 06, 2007 12:47 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
Titaniumalloy:"If there is no afterlife, he has wasted his life devoted to some false god, as a fool for the words of a strange man who came up with the idea in the first place. What a great way to spend your only life."
Here I disagree with you.
Waste? Religion never wastes your life and is not an obstacle to happiness. It gives you sense in life.
What about the people who spend hours upon hours sitting in church or litterally months praying and doing other senseless rituals.
I said before that I disagree with Hermits that spend their life preying. Since I come from a muslim background allow me to tell you this: Once Mohammad saw a young man who probably never leaves the mosque so Mohammad told him to listen to our calling to prey:
It's: "go to prey, then go to work". I hope this clarifies things.
I would post the arabic version but I am not sure you would understand.
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Even if one day God is disproved I will still believe in Him for he asks us to do good things in life, helpful not only to us but to our entire community.
Sure.
I agree with you here, only that you don't need to believe in god to do good.
You can follow what he teaches without following the idea of a big man who made the world.
But to believe in something that isnt there (like you said, if he was disproved) is pointless.
This is not what I exactly meant but remember that before religion ancient civilisations didn't care for good or at least not as after the first abrahamic religion came.
You are reducing the belief in God to a need, I don't see it that way.
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It's not like God asks us to do Human sacrifices or spend your life in a desert preying for him (even if some believes He does) or forces women to wear something they don't want to (like hijab); God asks us to be reasonable, wise, just and logical (I didn't mean that I distrust logic).
How do you know god asks this?
The bible or other religious texts are the only way you could know, and they are the exact things which DO tell you do to the things you mentioned.
I read the Coran, and nothing is said about women putting the veil or hermits preying in the desert. Islam is clear about man and women equality, and is clear about the use of reason and logic. Remember that the Muslim Empire of old made great scientif progress.
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The point is that
These words are a welcome change in this thread
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faith in God gives you a purpose to do good and to be happy, and I am not talking about paradise but rather being pround of your self and doing good for good's sake.
Unrelated to god.
Quote:
So believing in Him is not a waste but I agree that some intrepretations (false and stupid I might add) is a waste of life such as being a Hermit preying only and doing no good to others and
the hijab\nikhab which is a perversion of Islam by certain, rather jealous, idiots.
What about ramadan, fasting, washing feet, communion, baptism, etc? Very common rituals
I think you misunderstand what ramadan truly is. And what's wrong with washing feet
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I hope you like it even if I am probably being insulted by islamists, hermits (do they still exist?) and of course lovely atheists 'cough ashrah cough'
Ashrah is allowed to have her beliefs.
NO offence meant.
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No bixie I do not think God is only a comfort but you can't say it's wrong to say that He does provide us some comforts.
By comforts I don't mean: "Ah thinking is not my game so I will shut up and do good" but like I said God gives us a purpose, a direction then it's all up to you, your efforts, your reason and your will.
Purpose and direction to what?
So that you'll end up in heaven?
No, that you do good knowing that you are worthy of a reward (not doing it FOR the reward.).
I am not saying those who don't believe in god are devoid of a purpose. But the belief in God should unify purposes.
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted May 06, 2007 01:54 PM |
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Perhaps if TitaniumAlloy wasn't so sarcastic and commenting on each repetitive word we typed, he would've been more serious (and didn't quote each word but rather the context). I mean I really love your sarcasm man, but a joke is a joke as long as it has it's limit. I am not 100% english speaker and perhaps repeat stuff a lot (dunno how to rephrase it otherwise), just comment on the context and not the words
As far as the people who spend hours upon hours sitting in church or litterally months praying and doing other senseless rituals how do you know this is not a comfort?
You watch television, and you find it fun. People go to church, it's a comfort that brings purpose to them. Just because you are a 'fun' seeker doesn't mean everyone achieves happines through fun. I for example have my own moments when I really like to read and think -- more than just plain entertain myself at the cinema or whatever else. And about those 'readings' and 'thinking' they are not necessarily related to God either. It gives my mind a pleasure.
but hey you want physical pleasure 
About the magnetic field:
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Exactly, we came up with the concept of a magnetic field. We examined it, and found our theories to be accurate. We gathered evidence. We ran tests, experiments.
What does 'we' mean? Humans? yes
think about this again, if Humans 'we' did not have eyes or ears, we could not see the magnetic field therefore couldn't gather evidence, run tests and experiments. So of course magnetic fields wouldn't have an impact on those who seek physical fun. But those who really like spiritual/mind enlightenment, it will truly be an insight.
But now suppose that people have a new sense, the spiritual sense. We 'gathered evidence' about God with this spiritual sense. This we means the people which you believe to have written a 'story'.
How can you be so sure they didn't 'see' God with this spiritual sense? And perhaps we have that sense as well, but most of us do not acknowledge it. So of course for you it is a story, just as colors are a story for blind people.
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We did come up with the idea of god, thought it sounded pretty cool 'heaven n **** yo' and that was it. Now millions of people devote their life to it.
Ever wondered why people don't devote their life to other stories?
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God doesn't do anything. He doesn't need explaining.
Of course and light waves don't do anything to blind people. Maybe we're to blind to see God with the spiritual sense. But why do you negate His presence when someone with perhaps this new sense (Jesus for example) told you about Him?
Same as blind people usually trust those who have eyes -- and believe the world has 'light'. Perhaps we should trust Jesus as well. It's no different, but we're too arrogant to think only about our time.
It's the same as though Aliens came to Earth 2000 years ago, and people saw them. Now of course we think those would've been stories, but that's ignorance. And just because those Aliens won't come back ever again doesn't mean they didn't and don't exist -- but the worst part is that we think those men 2000 years ago were completely crazy.
Also you have to make a difference between any 'childish' story and a true spiritual story.
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Saying 'don't you see?' while explaining something to a blind man isn't a stupid question.
Of course.
Don't you see that God exists?
it's not a stupid question, but you lack the spiritual sense to see God.
no I am not more crazy than any blind person would think of a 'human with eyes'. So think about you being a blind person for example and me having eyes. Then think that you got eyes, and me got a new sense as well.
Of course this was only an example, and senses can only be explained by metaphors (ahh that word again ).
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Why do you so easily give up trying?
I am not giving up at all. But you seem to be sure that men wrote 'false stories' about God, and that's why they are stories.
But you also say that you "weren't present at Big Bang so you don't know what happened".
Then you weren't back at Jesus' time as well, so you don't know what happened.
If you had discovered something that will fade out in 15 minutes (for example, Aliens will travel to a different Universe in 15 minutes and give you good-bye, and won't ever come back). If you were granted a new sense by the Aliens, and you would be a writer, you write down the story, or pass it to your children, etc..
The idea is, people 100 years from now will think of these as fairy tales. That doesn't change the truth though (yeah i've been taking this idea with Aliens from X-files). Even worse, people currently will probably not believe you as well.
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We don't see the effects of god..
And blind people don't see effects of light as well.
As I said previously, perhaps everyone has the spiritual sense which we cannot control because of our ignorance. Only Jesus could. And with this sense, yes you could 'see' the effects of God
you don't see it because you don't have it
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You couldn't. You wouldn't know they existed. They wouldn't affect you.
You just seem to keep repeating this.
Some people seek enlightenment way beyond simple physical pleasure. And that also means seeking truth. If you find out the truth which is about Light waves, those people achieve happines through enlightenment, not fun.
Those who are blind and want to have only fun are unwise.
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TitaniumAlloy
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Professional
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posted May 06, 2007 02:07 PM |
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Some extra material : (more like an all you can eat athiest buffet, take your pick)
'I credit that eight years of grammar school with nourishing me in a direction where I could trust myself and trust my instincts. They gave me the tools to reject my faith. They taught me to question and think for myself and to believe in my instincts to such an extent that I just said, "This is a wonderful fairy tale they have going here, but it's not for me."' - George Carlin
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Here is my problem with the ten commandments- why exactly are there 10?
You simply do not need ten. The list of ten commandments was artificially and deliberately inflated to get it up to ten. bbbHere's what happened:
About 5,000 years ago a bunch of religious and political hustlers got together to try to figure out how to control people and keep them in line. They knew people were basically stupid and would believe anything they were told, so they announced that God had given them some commandments, up on a mountain, when no one was around.
Well let me ask you this- when they were making this **** up, why did they pick 10? Why not 9 or 11? I'll tell you why- because 10 sound official. Ten sounds important! Ten is the basis for the decimal system, it's a decade, it's a psychologically satisfying number (the top ten, the ten most wanted, the ten best dressed). So having ten commandments was really a marketing decision! It is clearly a bull**** list. It's a political document artificially inflated to sell better. I will now show you how you can reduce the number of commandments and come up with a list that's a little more workable and logical. I am going to use the Roman Catholic version because those were the ones I was taught as a little boy.
Let's start with the first three:
I AM THE LORD THY GOD THOU SHALT NOT HAVE STRANGE GODS BEFORE ME
THOU SHALT NOT TAKE THE NAME OF THE LORD THY GOD IN VAIN
THOU SHALT KEEP HOLY THE SABBATH
Right off the bat the first three are pure bull****. Sabbath day? Lord's name? strange gods? Spooky language! Designed to scare and control primitive people. In no way does superstitious nonsense like this apply to the lives of intelligent civilized humans in the 21st century. So now we're down to 7. Next:
HONOR THY FATHER AND MOTHER
Obedience, respect for authority. Just another name for controlling people. The truth is that obedience and respect shouldn't be automatic. They should be earned and based on the parent's performance. Some parents deserve respect, but most of them don't, period. You're down to six.
Now in the interest of logic, something religion is very uncomfortable with, we're going to jump around the list a little bit.
THOU SHALT NOT STEAL
THOU SHALT NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS
Stealing and lying. Well actually, these two both prohibit the same kind of behavior- dishonesty. So you don't really need two you combine them and call the commandment "thou shalt not be dishonest". And suddenly you're down to 5.
And as long as we're combining I have two others that belong together:
THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT ADULTRY
THOU SHALT NOT COVET THY NEIGHBOR'S WIFE
Once again, these two prohibit the same type of behavior. In this case it is marital infidelity. The difference is- coveting takes place in the mind. But I don't think you should outlaw fantasizing about someone else's wife because what is a guy gonna think about when he's waxing his carrot? But, marital infidelity is a good idea so we're gonna keep this one and call it "thou shalt not be unfaithful". And suddenly we're down to four.
But when you think about it, honesty and infidelity are really part of the same overall value so, in truth, you could combine the two honesty commandments with the two fidelity commandments and give them simpler language, positive language instead of negative language and call the whole thing "thou shalt always be honest and faithful" and we're down to 3.
THOU SHALT NOT COVET THY NEIGHBOR"S GOODS
This one is just plain ****in' stupid. Coveting your neighbor's goods is what keeps the economy going! Your neighbor gets a vibrator that plays "o come o ye faithful", and you want one too! Coveting creates jobs, so leave it alone. You throw out coveting and you're down to 2 now- the big honesty and fidelity commandment and the one we haven't talked about yet:
THOU SHALT NOT KILL
Murder. But when you think about it, religion has never really had a big problem with murder. More people have been killed in the name of god than for any other reason. All you have to do is look at Northern Ireland, Cashmire, the Inquisition, the Crusades, and the World Trade Center to see how seriously the religious folks take thou shalt not kill. The more devout they are, the more they see murder as being negotiable. It depends on who's doin the killin' and who's gettin' killed. So, with all of this in mind, I give you my revised list of the two commandments:
Thou shalt always be honest and faithful to the provider of thy nookie.
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Thou shalt try real hard not to kill anyone, unless of course they pray to a different invisible man than you.
Two is all you need; Moses could have carried them down the hill in his ****in' pocket. I wouldn't mind those folks in Alabama posting them on the courthouse wall, as long as they provided one additional commandment:
Thou shalt keep thy religion to thyself.
-George Carlin
"All thinking men are atheists." [Ernest Hemingway]
"Our ignorance is God; what we know is science" [Nietzsche]
"Our ignorance is God; what we know is science" [Nietzsche]
"It's not the parts of the bible I don't understand that scare me but the parts I do understand"
"Faith is believing something you know ain't true."
"Give a man a fish, and you'll feed him for a day; Give him a religion, and he'll starve to death while praying for a fish".
- Mark Twain
"We created god in our own image and likeness!" [George Carlin]
"It is said that men may not be the dreams of the Gods, but rather that the Gods are the dreams of men."
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." [Carl Sagan]
"Thus I came...to a deep religiosity, which, however, reached an abrupt end at the age of 12. Through the reading of popular scientific books I soon reached a conviction that much in the stories of the Bible could not be true....Suspicion against every kind of authority grew out of this experience...an attitude which has never left me." [Albert Einstein]
"I do not think it is necessary to believe that the same God who has given us our senses, reason, and intelligence wished us to abandon their use, giving us by some other means the information that we could gain through them." [Galileo Galilei ]
"It may be that our role on this planet is not to worship God, but to create him." [Arthur C. Clarke]
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"[Epicurus]
"Men create gods after their own image, not only with regard to their form but with regard to their mode of life" [Aristotle]
"An idea does not gain truth as it gains followers" [ Amanda Bloom]
"An Atheist believes that a hospital should be built instead of a church. An Atheist believes that a deed must be done instead of a prayer said. An Atheist strives for involvement in life and not escape into death. He wants disease conquered, poverty vanished, war eliminated."
Madalyn Murray O'Hair
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John says to live above hell.
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted May 06, 2007 02:16 PM |
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"An Atheist believes that a hospital should be built instead of a church. An Atheist believes that a deed must be done instead of a prayer said. An Atheist strives for involvement in life and not escape into death. He wants disease conquered, poverty vanished, war eliminated."
Where are the cinemas, money-making industries and all that crap which fills your life with money? Atheists will likely raise their own company with greater profit instead of some stupid hospital, especially if services are free.
All those people above regarding 'science' forgot monkeys couldn't talk -- and couldn't explain science to each other if we remained in that 'evolutionary stage'. (this is regarding the evolution theory on which atheists base their beliefs). Maybe we shouldn't have modified the natural cycle so we could've gained a new sense otherwise (who knows) -- and we will then see our actual science as blind.
"Great spirits have often encountered violent opposition from weak minds."
"Whoever undertakes to set himself up as a judge of Truth and Knowledge is shipwrecked by the laughter of the gods."
"As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain, as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality." - Albert Einstein
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TitaniumAlloy
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Professional
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posted May 06, 2007 02:23 PM |
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Perhaps if TitaniumAlloy wasn't so sarcastic and commenting on each repetitive word we typed, he would've been more serious (and didn't quote each word but rather the context).
No need to be serious
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I mean I really love your sarcasm man,
Great! what the problem is?
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As far as the people who spend hours upon hours sitting in church or litterally months praying and doing other senseless rituals how do you know this is not a comfort?
I didn't say it wasn't a comfort, I said it was a waste of life when they could be out having fun and being happy
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You watch television, and you find it fun. People go to church, it's a comfort that brings purpose to them. Just because you are a 'fun' seeker doesn't mean everyone achieves happines through fun. I for example have my own moments when I really like to read and think -- more than just plain entertain myself at the cinema or whatever else. And about those 'readings' and 'thinking' they are not necessarily related to God either. It gives my mind a pleasure.
but hey you want physical pleasure
Wow.
I have no idea where you got that from.
What do you have against me that you make such rash assumptions?
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About the magnetic field:
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Exactly, we came up with the concept of a magnetic field. We examined it, and found our theories to be accurate. We gathered evidence. We ran tests, experiments.
What does 'we' mean? Humans? yes
think about this again, if Humans 'we' did not have eyes or ears, we could not see the magnetic field therefore couldn't gather evidence, run tests and experiments. So of course magnetic fields wouldn't have an impact on those who seek physical fun. But those who really like spiritual/mind enlightenment, it will truly be an insight.
But now suppose that people have a new sense, the spiritual sense. We 'gathered evidence' about God with this spiritual sense. This we means the people which you believe to have written a 'story'.
You seem very hung up on the 'what if god exists, then what?' side of things.
If god exists, then I guess I'm very wrong indeed. But he doesn't.
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How can you be so sure they didn't 'see' God with this spiritual sense?
I can't.
But lets take it the other way. What if there is no god? Then the people are just lunatics.
So we've now established that if you're right I'm, well, wrong, for being skeptical, and if I'm right, then all believers are, as per your example, crazy people who think they see things with their spiritual sense.
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Ever wondered why people don't devote their life to other stories?
Because they haven't been around for thousands of years promoting 'eternal paradise'
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Of course and light waves don't do anything to blind people. Maybe we're to blind to see God with the spiritual sense.
Maybe.
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But why do you negate His presence when someone with perhaps this new sense (Jesus for example) told you about Him?
Because jesus is just a crazed carpenter. Why should I believe him?
If he did have this spiritual sense, then I would be wrong to not have believed in him. But I still would have no reason to have believed in him in the first place. I can't take everyones word for everything!
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Same as blind people usually trust those who have eyes -- and believe the world has 'light'. Perhaps we should trust Jesus as well.
I think we should nail him to the cross and then worship him for the rest of our lives.
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It's no different, but we're too arrogant to think only about our time.
yes it is. I can see the light. I can't see god.
Everyone tells the blind people about light, not just some crazed carpenter. There's a difference.
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It's the same as though Aliens came to Earth 2000 years ago, and people saw them. Now of course we think those would've been stories, but that's ignorance. And just because those Aliens won't come back ever again doesn't mean they didn't and don't exist -- but the worst part is that we think those men 2000 years ago were completely crazy.
No, it's as if one man 2000 years ago SAID he was an alien, and that he would return again.
Would it be so bad to call him crazy?
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Saying 'don't you see?' while explaining something to a blind man isn't a stupid question.
Don't you see that God exists?
it's not a stupid question, but you lack the spiritual sense to see God.
Perhaps I lack the mind-altering drugs to see god
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no I am not more crazy than any blind person would think of a 'human with eyes'. So think about you being a blind person for example and me having eyes. Then think that you got eyes, and me got a new sense as well.
Of course this was only an example, and senses can only be explained by metaphors (ahh that word again ).
my favourite word
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But you also say that you "weren't present at Big Bang so you don't know what happened".
Then you weren't back at Jesus' time as well, so you don't know what happened.
I don't claim to.
But I'm alive today and I know what's happening.
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If you had discovered something that will fade out in 15 minutes (for example, Aliens will travel to a different Universe in 15 minutes and give you good-bye, and won't ever come back). If you were granted a new sense by the Aliens, and you would be a writer, you write down the story, or pass it to your children, etc..
The idea is, people 100 years from now will think of these as fairy tales.
Maybe. Or maybe aliens are more plauible than a big man in the sky.
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That doesn't change the truth though (yeah i've been taking this idea with Aliens from X-files). Even worse, people currently will probably not believe you as well.
They have no reason to.
It would be irrelevant to life anyway.
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As I said previously, perhaps everyone has the spiritual sense which we cannot control because of our ignorance. Only Jesus could.
I thought you said it was all relative. therefore if jesus was the only one, wouldn't he be wrong?
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And with this sense, yes you could 'see' the effects of God
you don't see it because you don't have it
No one has it. Because it doesn't exist.
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You couldn't. You wouldn't know they existed. They wouldn't affect you.
You just seem to keep repeating this.
You seem to keep ignoring it and posing the same question, requiring the same answer.
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Some people seek enlightenment way beyond simple physical pleasure.
It's called LSD I hear
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And that also means seeking truth.
oh that kind
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If you find out the truth which is about Light waves, those people achieve happines through enlightenment, not fun.
Well I hope those people are happy now that they know about the light waves they will never have
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Those who are blind and want to have only fun are unwise.
Perhaps those who believe everything theyre told without logic or judgement are unwise.
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"An Atheist believes that a hospital should be built instead of a church. An Atheist believes that a deed must be done instead of a prayer said. An Atheist strives for involvement in life and not escape into death. He wants disease conquered, poverty vanished, war eliminated."
Where are the cinemas, money-making industries and all that crap which fills your life with money? Atheists will likely raise their own company with greater profit instead of some stupid hospital, especially if services are free.
hehe. you confuse athiesm with capitalism hahah.
what does that make believers, commies?
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All those people above regarding 'science' forgot monkeys couldn't talk -- and couldn't explain science to each other if we remained in that 'evolutionary stage'. (this is regarding the evolution theory on which atheists base their beliefs). Maybe we shouldn't have modified the natural cycle so we could've gained a new sense otherwise (who knows) -- and we will then see our actual science as blind.
What makes you think that would happen?
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"Great spirits have often encountered violent opposition from weak minds."
Weak minds such as those who take the words of carpenters with delusions of grandeur?
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"Whoever undertakes to set himself up as a judge of Truth and Knowledge is shipwrecked by the laughter of the gods."
Damn, I'm being laughed at by the gods for judging information given to me to make up my mind whether or not it is true 
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John says to live above hell.
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