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Istari
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posted June 21, 2007 06:05 PM |
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One of the biggest differences from Ashan's mith to Christianity is that the premordal dragons of order and choas were twin, hatching from the cosmic egg at the same time, and equal. God is not equal with Satan, he created Satan and is more powerful than Satan. This is probably better discussed in the other thread though. Here we are looking more into the existence (or not) of God.
It is interesting though that most mith stories have some aspect of God in them. The idea of a high power or powers seems to resignate in us for some reason.
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mvassilev
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posted June 21, 2007 06:20 PM |
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Quote:
One of the biggest differences from Ashan's mith to Christianity is that the premordal dragons of order and choas were twin, hatching from the cosmic egg at the same time, and equal. God is not equal with Satan, he created Satan and is more powerful than Satan. This is probably better discussed in the other thread though. Here we are looking more into the existence (or not) of God.
It is interesting though that most mith stories have some aspect of God in them. The idea of a high power or powers seems to resignate in us for some reason.
Lol, you didn't get what I meant at all. If Nival can come up with a creation myth, so can someone else. Just change a few things from others, and there you have it! And some are better than others. Christianity's is by no means the best. And myth stories having an aspect of God? They're myth stories. I mean, how could they not?
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Istari
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posted June 21, 2007 06:38 PM |
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Lol, you didn't get what I meant at all. If Nival can come up with a creation myth, so can someone else. Just change a few things from others, and there you have it! And some are better than others. Christianity's is by no means the best. And myth stories having an aspect of God? They're myth stories. I mean, how could they not?
Ah, you are right... I did not know what you were implying with your previous post. I don't follow your logic though. Are you saying: Because Nival invented a creation myth, all other creation stories must be myth -or- Because Nival invented a creation story, it is possible for other creation stories to be myths?
I agree that there certainly are many different creation myths some even predate the earliest Christian (at that time Hebrew) writings. I don't see how that is proof that all those stories are myths. That is similar to say, "if some people tell a lie than no one can tell the truth."
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JoonasTo
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What if Elvin was female?
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posted June 21, 2007 06:55 PM |
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The three persons of god was not my point in the first place.
The hebrew word elohim is plural and is occasionally used instead of jahve and there are the parts of it where he is said to be the god of gods or that he is more powerful than the other gods etc.
You get my point already.
If you don't then just read the collection of stories/writings/books again. The word bible, by the way, comes from the word biblia=books and its other name grammata=writings. Those are both greek.
It's no wonder bible has issues being told, collected and written in cuople of thousands of years. There were two big gatherings though to decide which parts were left out and which were assembled in to the kaanon. This was done to both parts of it.
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mvassilev
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posted June 21, 2007 06:55 PM |
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I'm saying that if Nival is able to create a myth (and it isn't that good), then why couldn't someone else come up with the Christian myth? And Genesis isn't any more creative than the Nival myth.
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Istari
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posted June 21, 2007 07:03 PM |
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I'm saying that if Nival is able to create a myth (and it isn't that good), then why couldn't someone else come up with the Christian myth? And Genesis isn't any more creative than the Nival myth.
Ok, I get what you are saying now, Genesis could be a myth. That is true. However, Gensesis could be the Truth. And how creative it is does not seem like a good measure of how accurate it is.
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angelito
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posted June 21, 2007 07:05 PM |
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I don't see how that is proof that all those stories are myths. That is similar to say, "if some people tell a lie than no one can tell the truth."
There is your wrong idea.
"If some people tell a lie, THEN ALL OTHERS COULD BE LIARS TOO!"
This is how the logic works.
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mvassilev
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posted June 21, 2007 07:17 PM |
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The hebrew word elohim is plural and is occasionally used instead of jahve and there are the parts of it where he is said to be the god of gods or that he is more powerful than the other gods etc.
BTW, Elohim is related to the old Phoencian (misspelled) El (their chief god) and the singular form of "Elohim" is Elah, which is of course related to Muslim "Allah".
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Istari
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posted June 21, 2007 07:20 PM |
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The three persons of god was not my point in the first place.
The hebrew word elohim is plural and is occasionally used instead of jahve and there are the parts of it where he is said to be the god of gods or that he is more powerful than the other gods etc.
Having a basic understanding of the Trinity, I do not have a problem with the word elohim. Your second point (the one I bolded) needs a deeper literature review to answer. God had the challenge of communicating to people in a specific time, in a specific culture, with specific beliefs. In order to communicate effectively one must use words that his audiance understands. God states clearly that he is the only God, but to some audiances, the communication seems more effective to start with their assumpsions (there are many gods) and gradually build truths on top of that. God does not force His way on us, he attempts to woe us to Him, meeting us where we are at.
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Istari
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posted June 21, 2007 09:10 PM |
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roman records of office, don't match with biblical ones, for starters... and romans were pretty ...ummm... exact, when it came to such things
I didn't want to overlook our previous thoughts, this thread just so fast, I don't have enough internet time to keep up. Anyways, I understand the Bible to be historically accurate but haven't done much research into this. I look forward to the opportunity to learn more from your info. Could you be specific though. What chapter and verse are you talking about in the Bible? and what roman records does this conflict with?
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Lith-Maethor
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posted June 21, 2007 10:17 PM |
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istari...
just search (google, wikipedia, or whatever other source) for historicity of the bible (of jesus will work as well, but its a bit more narrow a field)
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Istari
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posted June 21, 2007 10:57 PM |
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Edited by Istari at 22:58, 21 Jun 2007.
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just search (google, wikipedia, or whatever other source) for historicity of the bible (of jesus will work as well, but its a bit more narrow a field)
I took a quick look at wikipedia and saw that there is debate over the historical accuracy of the bible. I did not see any obvious and conclusive evidence of biblical error. We could engage ourselves in that debate and look closer at that evidence, but I get the feeling that, that issue is not central to your rejection of Christianity and it certainly doesn't rock my faith. But hey, if that interests you we can go there. I just brought it up because it sounded like you knew something conclusive or that information was generally agreed upon.
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Orfinn
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posted June 22, 2007 01:52 AM |
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I dont belive in gods but inmyself. For me they who belive and prays/begs for any gods are actually praying to themself.
I stick strictly to the evelotion, technological ways of life. But still I belive that there are existing ghosts, that there are alien species out there making beautiful corn arts for us (but we aint rdy to meet them...yet, thank nature!) vampires (cross an albino with satanic need for blood and you got one) and werewolves. I belive they exist but I dont worship them or praying to them. See?? There are belief in Gods (making prayers for them, worshipping) and belief in that there are something out there or in here (like ghosts, aliens) 
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Aculias
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posted June 22, 2007 01:54 AM |
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Makes the world more interesting huh.
Evolution but spirits are in the sky.
Even though Darwin excluded it before he died.
It seems like the logical explanation.
Even though how have we became so advanced.
How did Homo Habilus become what they are?
How was it all evolved from the beginning?
How big is the universe?
So many Q & probally will never get a logical answer in anyones lifetime.
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Istari
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posted June 25, 2007 04:12 PM |
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I see this thread as an interesting place to discuss things like God, evolution, and meaning. It's a neat place to look at hard questions. you can really see people's passion and intensity when they write about these topics. I have been surprised by some of the posts defending Christianity, and several defending science. There have been some bold claims that people know for sure that there is not a god and that the Christian God cannot exist. This was usually done by incomplete logic (free-will being controlled?), or confusion on what the Bible says. A common theme during the Renaissance was that the more science grew, the more religion would shrink. Science has grown a lot since then, and religion is growing faster than ever. I have seen some posts trying to prove that God has to exist. I know God exists, like I know when something is funny. I can't test it or measure it, just know it. If we new everything there was to know about God, could test Him and measure Him, he would a small God indeed. I am glad that God has some mystery to Him, and is more complex than I can fully understand. I am content knowing about God what He has revealed about Himself. Unfortunately that means I (or anyone else) can prove that God exists. If I could it would take the faith out of spirituality. So I am sad that so many people think they need proof before they believe and may miss out on a loving relationship with God. But I hope that the people who read this thread aren't confused into thinking that God can't exist. I certainly can't prove that God does exist, but there is also no conclusive evidence/ reason that God doesn't exist. The only purely logical statement we can say about God is that he could exist. And when you feel like something is missing in your life and you can't put your finger on it, wonder if that is God asking to have a relationship with you. You were created to have a relationship with God, and that is where you will find meaning.
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TitaniumAlloy
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posted June 25, 2007 04:23 PM |
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Quote:
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"As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated." (Romans 9:13)
God isn't all loving
Your hypothesis is that God is not all loving. You should try to disprove your hypothesis... if using the scientific method is your goal.
It is not hard to disagree with something that you don't understand. Try understanding it first than make up your mind about it.
well now.
since god exists outside of our physical realm it's a bit hard to prove or disprove an aspect of him using the laws of our pathetic physical realm that we call 'science'
The only record of god we have is the bible
I quoted a passage from the bible where god says he hates someone. Now you tell me, who understands god more?
Quote:
Ok, I get what you are saying now, Genesis could be a myth. That is true. However, Gensesis could be the Truth. And how creative it is does not seem like a good measure of how accurate it is.
Just as likely as Nival's story could be true.
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angelito
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posted June 25, 2007 04:34 PM |
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A common theme during the Renaissance was that the more science grew, the more religion would shrink. Science has grown a lot since then, and religion is growing faster than ever...
Religion is not growing refering to percentages.
In the time of renaissence, you even weren't really allowed to "NOT believe"! If u came up with some science, you may have been burned in fire (The earth is ROUND and turns around the SUN, not other way around!!) The church just was too strong and mighty that time, BECAUSE the science was just "at the beginning".
Of course we have more religious people than 300 years ago, because:
1. We have more people living on our planet.
2. Religion has convinced other nations whose knowledge isn't on that high standard as in the "modern world", namely africa and south asia.
3. Many people still need something they can "talk" to or use as a reason why something "happened wrong" or just because they don't accept coincidences.
Just take africa for example.
If not the christian europeans would have been the first "conquering" this continent (colonies) but the chinese at the same time. How many of them would believe in "god" nowadays, and how many would just "live their live to the idea BUDDHA had?
It's just who was first there and did the job.
GOD BLESS AMERICA ----> George W. Bush said after he gave order to bomb the Iraq.
IN THE NAME OF ALLAH ----> The 2 islamic pilots of the 2 planes crushing into WTC said right before they hit.
I can live quite good without religion to be honest.....
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Istari
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posted June 25, 2007 04:44 PM |
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Just as likely as Nival's story could be true.
Not all sources are the same.
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JoonasTo
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posted June 25, 2007 04:51 PM |
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If I recall correctly Chinese were in Africa atleast at the same time as Europeans but they stopped their explorations for political issues.
Just a nice little something I picked up on the way.
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Istari
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posted June 25, 2007 05:46 PM |
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"As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated." (Romans 9:13)
God isn't all loving
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well now.
since god exists outside of our physical realm it's a bit hard to prove or disprove an aspect of him using the laws of our pathetic physical realm that we call 'science'
The only record of god we have is the bible
I quoted a passage from the bible where god says he hates someone. Now you tell me, who understands god more?
That's a good question. You are right that the only way to understand God is by looking at what He has revealed about Himself through the Bible. Now to answer this question, we need a thorough textual review of the passage you are referring to. It takes more than just an English translation of one line of a 4000 year old manuscript to really understand it. The literary context, the historical context, the cultural context, and the intended audience all needs to be taken into consideration. Once a thorough review is done, one can start to ask, what does the word "hated" mean here? Obviously God thoughts won't fit perfectly into human language, but it can't be so different as to mean its opposite (loved). Is this a literary device using opposites to make an extreme comparison between siblings. It is a real cultural oddity that the family blessing and inheritance (the entire family line for both Judaism and Christianity was given to the younger son and not the older. Why was that? What did Esau do wrong? Your Bible reference above is Paul quoting Malachi 1:2-3. Looking closer at Malachi can give us a literary background, but for the historical background we need to look in Genesis 25, were the account of Esau and Jacob is originally given. Esau sold his birthright to his brother for a bowl of stew. There is a lot that does into this type of review and you really need to talk to a hermeneutics professor to get the full appreciation of what goes into correct Biblical interpretation.
As I’m reading what I’ve written already I realize 2 things. 1) I didn’t answer your question. 2) You may not care what goes into correct Biblical interpretation. I don’t have a quick answer regarding how can an all-loving God hate someone. I know some things about Biblical interpretation and theology, but am not an expert by any means. I know that at the time of Malachi the Israelites were facing some really hard times and were questioning whether or not God loved them. I know that the Israelites were the descendants of Jacob, and the Edomites (who were fighting the Israelites) were the descendants of Esau. So could this be a literary device used by God to reassure his chosen people that He loves them and is on there side? I think yes. Hate may just be used for its comparative qualities to the word love. But this is one, fairly hasty interpretation. This post is mostly an attempt to help you appreciate the complexity of Biblical (or any ancient document) interpretation. Like I say, I don’t have all the answers and there certainly is a lot about God that is a mystery. To understand your question better you may want to seek out an actual Biblical scholar or theologian, they won’t know everything about God (no one does), but they may understand this passage better.
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