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Istari
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posted June 26, 2007 03:38 PM |
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if you're wrong- spend life worshiping for no reason (although the reported happiness and general over health is higher for spiritual acitive people than for those who don't believe.)
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That I doubt completely.
It took me about 15 seconds to find this article. Do even a small amount of research and you will find a 1000 more.
http://www.family.org/faith/A000000895.cfm
by Clem Boyd
Ever wonder how Methuselah lived to be almost 1,000 years old? Maybe he had a good prayer life.
At least that's what a recent study from the Duke University Medical Center indicates. Looking at 4,000 older adults from rural North Carolina, the Duke team concluded that even occasional private prayer and Bible study helped people live healthier and longer lives.
"This is one of the first studies showing that people who pray live longer," said researcher Harold Koenig.
Dr. David Stevens, a family practitioner and executive director of the Christian Medical Association, said Christians shouldn't be surprised.
"People who are anxious, worried and depressed do poorly when they're sick," Stevens said. "Those with hope and peace in the midst of a [health] struggle seem to do much better. People with religious commitments have that hope and peace."
Prayer brings a definite physiological benefit, noted Dr. Bob Orr, director of clinical ethics at Fletcher Allen Health Care, the teaching hospital for the University of Vermont.
"I certainly encourage people who are believers to pray," Orr said. "My observation is the person who prays is less stressed. He becomes less anxious, and his blood pressure and pulse improve."
Stevens pointed to one study which showed the risk of diastolic hypertension was 40 percent lower among those who studied the Bible daily and attended church weekly. Another study concluded that elderly heart patients were 14 times less likely to die after surgery if they found comfort in religious faith.
"This has an impact on longevity," Stevens said. "The overall life expectancy gap is seven years between those who go to church once a week versus those who don't attend at all. We will live longer if we have a strong faith."
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TitaniumAlloy
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posted June 26, 2007 05:11 PM |
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What kind of a benevolent god would let such people in for solely believing him so that in the off chance that he is actually there that it pays off for him?
The odds are good, let's put money on it too.
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TitaniumAlloy
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posted June 26, 2007 05:16 PM |
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Understanding faith and spirituality takes a deeper type of understanding than what is measurable.
You say that because it sounds good.
You make "what is measurable" sound weak and pathetic.
I don't know why religious people do this. Instead of flat out saying "atheists are ****ers" they go through the convoluted process of discrediting the entire human race "we are pathetic in comparison to god" etc and then make the believers sound better.
Religion must have been started by a wordsmith, because it has been built up on the fact that you can make ******** sound attractive, like "more than what is measurable" or "more than pathetic wants* like wanting a missing limb, greed/the need to reproduce programmed into us, lust/the need to eat, gluttony/the need to sleep, sloth/ etc.
Why give us the needs for deadly sins, god?
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John says to live above hell.
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Istari
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posted June 26, 2007 05:26 PM |
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What kind of a benevolent god would let such people in for solely believing him so that in the off chance that he is actually there that it pays off for him?
The odds are good, let's put money on it too.
Can you clarify what you are responding too, it is a little out of the blue. Anyways you are asking the wrong question because you have the wrong assumption about salvation. If you want to critisize my stance, you first have to understand it. Start with these beliefs:
1) Humans were created in God's image to be in relatnioship with Him.
2) Out of our free will humans chose to sin thus seperating us from God (God's perfection can't be united in relationship to that which is not perfect- its incompatible).
3) God came in the form of Jesus to die on the cross so that by asking for forgiveness for our sins we can removed and we can once again be in relationship with God (accepting Christ's sacrifice cleans us of our sins).
When you understand the belief's of Christians you see that your question doesn't make any sense. Intellectual belief in God does not get you to Heaven. Confessing your sins and accepting Christ's sacrifice for your sins gets you to heaven. That starts the process of a relationship with God that changes your life.
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Istari
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posted June 26, 2007 05:34 PM |
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Understanding faith and spirituality takes a deeper type of understanding than what is measurable.
You say that because it sounds good.
You make "what is measurable" sound weak and pathetic.
I don't know why religious people do this. Instead of flat out saying "atheists are ****ers" they go through the convoluted process of discrediting the entire human race "we are pathetic in comparison to god" etc and then make the believers sound better.
I do not think that atheists are ****ers. I do think that science has limitations. It seems like a common problem with atheists is that they elevate science to the level of religion forcing themselves to pretend that it has no limitations. When you (or anyone else) figures out how to measure spirituality let me know.
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Why give us the needs for deadly sins, god?
God may answer you directly, but I will at least give my insight. When people chose to sin our nature became flawed. But if it wasn't for our flaws we wouldn't see the need for God. we would miss the entire point of life, to be in a loving relationship with God.
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baklava
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posted June 26, 2007 05:54 PM |
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When you (or anyone else) figures out how to measure spirituality let me know.
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Istari
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posted June 26, 2007 06:02 PM |
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 what was you question again?
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TitaniumAlloy
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posted June 26, 2007 06:08 PM |
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What kind of a benevolent god would let such people in for solely believing him so that in the off chance that he is actually there that it pays off for him?
The odds are good, let's put money on it too.
Can you clarify what you are responding too, it is a little out of the blue. Anyways you are asking the wrong question because you have the wrong assumption about salvation.
...
When you understand the belief's of Christians you see that your question doesn't make any sense. Intellectual belief in God does not get you to Heaven. Confessing your sins and accepting Christ's sacrifice for your sins gets you to heaven. That starts the process of a relationship with God that changes your life.
I was referring to Quote:
Believing in God
if you're right- you go to heaven
if you're wrong- spend life worshiping for no reason (although the reported happiness and general over health is higher for spiritual acitive people than for those who don't believe.)
Don't believe in God
if you're right- die and get eaten by worms.
if you're wrong- eternity in Hell.
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TitaniumAlloy
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posted June 26, 2007 06:11 PM |
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Why give us the needs for deadly sins, god?
God may answer you directly, but I will at least give my insight. When people chose to sin our nature became flawed. But if it wasn't for our flaws we wouldn't see the need for God. we would miss the entire point of life, to be in a loving relationship with God.
Are you saying that we chose to have a sex drive? To be hungry?
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Istari
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posted June 26, 2007 06:13 PM |
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@TA
Ok, got it. Still, check the Christian belief's I posted to answer your questions. The possible outcomes of each belief is not why I believe. It is just a fun rephrase from your first post.
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Istari
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posted June 26, 2007 06:21 PM |
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Are you saying that we chose to have a sex drive? To be hungry?
I am saying that we chose to sin and that resulted in a lot of things. Sex and hunger were created by God and are not bad. Sex is a good thing, and so is a healthy appetite. These drives are not a problem by themselves. Sin did not create new things, it just perverted the good things that already existed. So problems related to sex and hunger (cheating on one's wife, molesting children... and gluttony, anorexia...) are a result of sin.
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baklava
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posted June 26, 2007 06:37 PM |
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cheating on one's wife
Animals cheat on each other all the time... But on the other hand, they never lead wars about which God is better... Or created the Inquisition... Or staged forceful mass-scale conversions...
So the point is, those who never really think about sins a lot are generally far better-off than those who do. By fanatically restraining from some sins, you open your heart to other ones. You can't really lead a sinless life, so it's best to keep your sins low, but still don't try to root them out completely cause it's impossible - sin is in the essence of human nature - and you'll end up even worse.
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TheDeath
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posted June 26, 2007 06:48 PM |
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You say that because it sounds good.
Ok now I finally understood why you can't comprehend the notion of God. 
Doesn't science 'look good' as well?
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You make "what is measurable" sound weak and pathetic.
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I don't know why religious people do this. Instead of flat out saying "atheists are ****ers" they go through the convoluted process of discrediting the entire human race "we are pathetic in comparison to god" etc and then make the believers sound better.
Because atheists are usually the ones which swear and all that, because they're more aggresive. Trust me, from lots of forums
And by the way, religious people don't insult (for religion, of course) atheists (as long as their faithful of course ) because what you believe to be "imaginary" (like blind people call colors imaginary ) is for us real. Atheists call all of "proofs" for God just tricks, or delusional thoughts. But think about yourself -- why do you think your "perception" is not delusional as well? Just because you can see it? Just because YOU can measure it? What if I can measure something that you can't? (maybe you don't have the necessary limbs or intelligence to figure it out). Of course for YOU it's still a delusion.
Blind people can't see, but lights still exists. Just because YOU can't understand those words (and say "sounds good") doesn't mean that anyone else doesn't.
And if I spoke to God, what would you say? Delusion? Illusion? anything else? what if YOU spoke to God (somehow, this is only an example)? What would you expect from others?
No matter what, atheists reject all "proofs" of God, calling them delusional thoughts. If you haven't already, please read chapter 2 of the Blind atheist book, here.
You don't get those "cool words" in religion that "sound good"... is that a proof that no one can? oh yeah, well for monkeys it's proof already that no one can speak, because they can't
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Why give us the needs for deadly sins, god?
God created us with free will. I don't know what you don't get with it. He did not program us to do certain things. We made every choice. God didn't create our thoughts and doesn't program our thoughts either even though he created us.
It's the same as (pathetic example I know, but I don't know how to make you understand it better): imagine yourself creating some neural networks, a self-aware computer. The problem is, you only put there some artificial neurons (in memory), some other stuff, etc etc.. but you don't tell it what to do (unless he listens to you).. The artificial specie (cyborg) can as well turn against you, he chooses freely.
This doesn't relate directly to God, however. So please bear this in mind. But I really don't know how to explain this better for you. Sorry.
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Istari
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posted June 26, 2007 06:55 PM |
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Animals cheat on each other all the time... But on the other hand, they never lead wars about which God is better... Or created the Inquisition... Or staged forceful mass-scale conversions...
So the point is, those who never really think about sins a lot are generally far better-off than those who do.
I don't know you well enough to know if this is a joke or not. Are you saying that because animals haven't started wars and don't think about sin, we should not think about sin. Because the fact that they are animals may play a pretty big part in the fact that they don't start wars.
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By fanatically restraining from some sins, you open your heart to other ones. You can't really lead a sinless life, so it's best to keep your sins low, but still don't try to root them out completely cause it's impossible - sin is in the essence of human nature - and you'll end up even worse.
Christianity is a spiritual belief system. That system doesn't allow people to think they are perfect. It starts by admitting that you are not perfect and need forgiveness for that. Christ's death cleans us of our sins, but it doesn't mean we will never sin again. I am certainly a sinner. We become redeemed to God, but still flawed in our earthly bodies. So your problem with wars and misguided Christianity has a lot less to do with Christianity than it does with Christians (or those who say they are Christians). Christianity is Truth. Christians are flawed and make mistakes. I agree that Religion (organized rules and laws about a spiritual belief system) can be very messed up- at least as messed up as the people who act it out. That doesn't mean Christianity is wrong or causes wrong. Human's will find a reason to war no matter what the excuse is.
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baklava
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posted June 26, 2007 07:17 PM |
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Edited by baklava at 19:19, 26 Jun 2007.
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I don't know you well enough to know if this is a joke or not.
When you get to know me better you'll know that everything I say has bits of both...
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Are you saying that because animals haven't started wars and don't think about sin, we should not think about sin
Exactly. Animals are free. And we are slaves to our own rules. Think about that.
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Because the fact that they are animals may play a pretty big part in the fact that they don't start wars.
I think people as a race aren't considered animals cause they're too dumb for that.
Don't worry, that wasn't centered at you but at mankind itself.
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Christianity is a spiritual belief system.
That's the main problem with today's christianity. When faith starts turning into a system, it denies its own purpose.
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It starts by admitting that you are not perfect and need forgiveness for that.
No one is perfect, that's the way we are; I agree about that. Being unperfect is just being yourself. Do we need forgiveness for just being ourselves? Do we really need to care that people who are nothing better than us decide we're worthy of their forgiveness? That's pure hypocrisy.
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Christ's death cleans us of our sins
Christ's death shows how barbaric and untolerant we are as a specie. It does not cleanse us, far from that - it indicates how we are perverted and corrupted enough to NAIL OUR OWN SAVIOR TO A CROSS AND LET HIM BLEED THERE TO DEATH and then FURTHER BUTCHER EACH OTHERS FOR 2000 YEARS BECAUSE OF THAT.
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So your problem with wars and misguided Christianity has a lot less to do with Christianity than it does with Christians (or those who say they are Christians).
Yes. That was my point. Nothing I say in this thread is directed at Christ or his vision of christianity; only at the Church's dogmatic views, their bible and those who follow them unquestioningly.
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is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
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Istari
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posted June 26, 2007 07:45 PM |
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Christianity is a spiritual belief system.
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That's the main problem with today's christianity. When faith starts turning into a system, it denies its own purpose.
I agree with you. Christianity is about a personal relationship with Christ. A system can help support that relationship, but should never take the place of it. It is easy to get into a routine and lose sight of its intended purpose.
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It starts by admitting that you are not perfect and need forgiveness for that.
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No one is perfect, that's the way we are; I agree about that. Being unperfect is just being yourself. Do we need forgiveness for just being ourselves? Do we really need to care that people who are nothing better than us decide we're worthy of their forgiveness? That's pure hypocrisy.
It sounds like you are a little misguided here. You don't ask other people for forgiveness. You ask God for forgiveness. And we do need forgiven for being sinful, even though it seems to come natually to us. It is the only way to get back on page with God, so we can have a relatnioship with Him. If you say, I'm screwed up and I don't care that I'm screwed up, you are showing your pride. We need humility to recognize that we live on God's terms and that God is bigger than us. We must come to Him. As much as He wants to be with us, He will not compromise His perfection.
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Christ's death cleans us of our sins
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Christ's death shows how barbaric and untolerant we are as a specie. It does not cleanse us, far from that - it indicates how we are perverted and corrupted enough to NAIL OUR OWN SAVIOR TO A CROSS AND LET HIM BLEED THERE TO DEATH and then FURTHER BUTCHER EACH OTHERS FOR 2000 YEARS BECAUSE OF THAT.
Christ Himself said that He came to earth so that we could be saved through His sacrifice. What was done to Christ is barbaric. But through their evil intention, Christ created a way for everyone to be saved.
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So your problem with wars and misguided Christianity has a lot less to do with Christianity than it does with Christians (or those who say they are Christians).
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Yes. That was my point. Nothing I say in this thread is directed at Christ or his vision of christianity; only at the Church's dogmatic views, their bible and those who follow them unquestioningly.
I think we agree on the love Christ and the importance of having a relationship with him. I think we also agree that the Church(people) has done horrible things in the name of Christ, that Christ does not support. We probably differ on our views of the Bible, but are more in line with each other than you may think.
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baklava
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posted June 26, 2007 08:13 PM |
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Edited by baklava at 20:15, 26 Jun 2007.
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You don't ask other people for forgiveness. You ask God for forgiveness.
I was referring to today's christianity. People seek forgiveness from the Church (which somehow got them to believe they're Gods on Earth... the entire Pope thing is pure idolatry) cause most think the real God will hear them better that way...
Besides, if God didn't want you to be that way, he wouldn't make you that way, wouldn't he?  There's a reason for everything. And since you have just about no power over that, why should you be sorry? If people should be sorry they're the way they are, then God should feel sorry too for making them the way they are.
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And we do need forgiven for being sinful, even though it seems to come natually to us. It is the only way to get back on page with God, so we can have a relatnioship with Him.
But why do you have to pretend you are something you're not to have a relationship with God? I have a relationship with God without that. We all do. It's just the matter of do we know it or how we perceive that.
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If you say, I'm screwed up and I don't care that I'm screwed up, you are showing your pride.
And what about saying "I'm not screwed up at all cause I kneel every day begging God to forgive me I exist"? Is that much better?
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We need humility to recognize that we live on God's terms and that God is bigger than us.
If God wanted us to humiliate ourselves in his (her/its) name he wouldn't have allowed 10 000 years of paganism on Earth before that. I think God doesn't really need or want our faith or churches or kneeling. If he did, he'd make all those pagan people believe in him (her/it ) right away, and not in overmuscular old people with thunders and stuff. Like I keep saying, we should be ourselves, by ourselves. God is just out there to watch over us (and discutably make our lives better or more miserable). We certainly gain nothing by getting up his butt whenever we make some mistake.
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As much as He wants to be with us, He will not compromise His perfection.
I see. But that isn't pride, right? It's pride to say "I can't be something I'm not" but it isn't pride to say "Sorry, but I'm too perfect for you guys".
I think you slightly misunderstand what God is all about...
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But through their evil intention, Christ created a way for everyone to be saved.
Yes, by giving future generations a chance to comprehend how degenerated their kind is and how they could stop killing each other for a change. Sadly enough, that didn't happen yet and I seriously doubt it will ever happen.
There is a WAY to be saved, the problem is that everyone's going in the opposite direction (and claims they're going in the right one).
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We probably differ on our views of the Bible, but are more in line with each other than you may think.
Hehe yeah, I noticed that... That's why this conversation is so fun
And I have nothing against the primal Bible (the first version, with all gospels from all apostles, and most importantly with the truth; lost throughout the ages and constantly changed and revised so that it suits the needs of the Church). It's just that I dislike this today's version cause it's simply brainwashing (in the "we are God and you are mud" way)...
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Istari
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posted June 26, 2007 08:38 PM |
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And we do need forgiven for being sinful, even though it seems to come natually to us. It is the only way to get back on page with God, so we can have a relatnioship with Him.
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But why do you have to pretend you are something you're not to have a relationship with God? I have a relationship with God without that. We all do. It's just the matter of do we know it or how we perceive that.
I am not pretending I am something I am not. I am a sinner. I do ask for foriveness. Christ does forgive me. That does justify me with God. God is both loving and just. His justice says that it is not ok to be a sinner. His love provides us a way to be in relationship with Him. If a police officer is just he will give you a speeding ticket when you speed. He cannot look the other way or rip up the ticket. If he is also loving, he will pay the ticket for us. Our sin created a debt that we cannot pay. Jesus paid that debt for us. Again, we are screwed up because of our free will and God will not take that gift away from us and make us follow Him, we must chose to accept the gift Jesus offers. Saying we don't need forgiveness means we refuse Christ's payment on our behalf and because of God's justice we will owe a debt we cannot pay on our own.
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If you say, I'm screwed up and I don't care that I'm screwed up, you are showing your pride.
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And what about saying "I'm not screwed up at all cause I kneel every day begging God to forgive me I exist"? Is that much better?
You are right that is also pride. Jesus had the most respect for the broken and poor. Those who were messed up and new it. He gave his harshest words to the pharisees (the religious leaders). That is why i say, I am screwed up and I am glad that Christ has forgiven me for that.
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mvassilev
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posted June 26, 2007 08:44 PM |
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If an ox could draw, his god would look like an ox.
Assuming that it would want a god. And it has nothing to do with anything like "the inherent belief in God". The concept of God arose from the following:
1. The need to explain what couldn't be explained.
2. The need to deal with crisis.
3. The need to fit in with other believers.
And, thus, religion was created to exploit this.
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ZombieLord
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posted June 26, 2007 08:47 PM |
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Assuming that it would want a god. And it has nothing to do with anything like "the inherent belief in God". The concept of God arose from the following:
1. The need to explain what couldn't be explained.
2. The need to deal with crisis.
3. The need to fit in with other believers.
And, thus, religion was created to exploit this.
How do you know? Any "proof"?
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