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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 26, 2007 08:51 PM |
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1. Why does the sun rise in the east and set in the west? They didn't know about the rotation of the earth, so they just said, "God made it thus." Why does it rain? "God made it thus." What happens after I die? "God will decide, he does everything else."
2.
Ancient man: Why are my children dead?!
Ancient priest: Umm... God has punished you!
Ancient man: NOOOOO!!!! Then I must pray, or the sun will never rise for me again!
Ancient priest *quietly*: Lol, nub.
3.
Ancient man 1: Stop squatting around! There's a holy orgy at the temple!
Everyone else: OK!!!
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Eccentric Opinion
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Istari
Known Hero
Truth Teller, ToH
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posted June 26, 2007 08:52 PM |
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Edited by Istari at 20:55, 26 Jun 2007.
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Quote:
If an ox could draw, his god would look like an ox.
Assuming that it would want a god. And it has nothing to do with anything like "the inherent belief in God". The concept of God arose from the following:
1. The need to explain what couldn't be explained.
2. The need to deal with crisis.
3. The need to fit in with other believers.
And, thus, religion was created to exploit this.
That's amazing that someone finally has it all figured out (sarcasm, but not the mean kind). You are using religion to bash spirituality, they are not the same thing. Anyways, how did you come to these conclusions? Is it just inherent knowledge to you? (maybe a little jeering, but again, not meant to be mean)
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Opinions are immunity to being told you're wrong.
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ZombieLord
Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
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posted June 26, 2007 08:55 PM |
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Quote:
1. Why does the sun rise in the east and set in the west? They didn't know about the rotation of the earth, so they just said, "God made it thus." Why does it rain? "God made it thus." What happens after I die? "God will decide, he does everything else."
2.
Ancient man: Why are my children dead?!
Ancient priest: Umm... God has punished you!
Ancient man: NOOOOO!!!! Then I must pray, or the sun will never rise for me again!
Ancient priest *quietly*: Lol, nub.
3.
Ancient man 1: Stop squatting around! There's a holy orgy at the temple!
Everyone else: OK!!!
You know what the ancient people said
Wow, you really have some inside information about GOD
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 26, 2007 09:02 PM |
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Well, it took a lot longer, but it was essentially that.
Actually, a better example of point 3 would be:
Ancient person 1: Hey, AP2, let's go to the temple.
AP2: Why? A big dude in the sky that can do anything? That's stupid.
AP1: No one in the sky? You're stupid.
AP3: Yeah, religion is teh pwnage.
AP4: Yeah.
AP5-9: Yeah.
AP2: Well... If everyone else believes, then I must be wrong. Okay, let's go to the temple.
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Eccentric Opinion
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Lith-Maethor
Honorable
Legendary Hero
paid in Coin and Cleavage
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posted June 26, 2007 09:05 PM |
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oh boy...
just a couple of notes...
first of all, claiming evolution is invalid because there are still monkeys about, is the most ignorant statement than can be made ..there are ants and bees, but that doesn't mean wasps have gone extinct... by your logic they should be
and second... if you believe in the abrahamic god, so you can go to heaven after you die (or so that you can have a relationship with god... i wonder, does he send you flowers in V-day or something?) then... a) most of the time forget to live in the here and now, with friends, family and loved ones ...and b) miss the whole point of christianity, going to heaven should be just a perk, not the basis of faith
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You are suffering from delusions of adequacy.
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baklava
Honorable
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Mostly harmless
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posted June 26, 2007 09:07 PM |
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Edited by baklava at 21:08, 26 Jun 2007.
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@Istari
Quote:
Jesus had the most respect for the broken and poor. Those who were messed up and new it. He gave his harshest words to the pharisees (the religious leaders).
Yes.
Jesus. Jesus. Jesus.
Not God.
God is obviously different from Jesus. Or at least, Jesus wasn't any closer related to God than we are. Jesus was divine simply because he was a good person; in that time. That's what makes him heavenly. He wasn't God incarnate... God doesn't exist in one person solely; or as an old man sitting on the clouds, watching over us. God is in all of us equally - and by God I mean both God and Devil, both good and bad, simply soul - and no matter how fun the stories about winged men and splitting seas and water walk are, they are just not true. Things are different than that.
Jesus chose the path of enlightenment and good. He mentioned the Abrahamic God because that's the one those people believed in - he tried to bring them love and charity through religion. Unfortunately people started thinking God is a being on its own somewhere in the skies, demanding we bow to it and live by its rules; but it really is a spirit that connects people (and all other living beings) and simply makes them what they are. There is no shame or humility to be felt in that.
Any further dwelling into this topic will cause thinking about things we can't possibly know or hope to know and would be pure guessing, so I'm going to lay down a bit about this. Our message is basically same - love Jesus the way you know is right, not because he's some ruler of the sky or something but because of his beautiful message, and do not follow the Church or its rules blindly. Whether we choose to try to comprehend what's going on in the spiritual level or just leave that be is purely a matter of choice, so that brings this discussion to an end.
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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Istari
Known Hero
Truth Teller, ToH
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posted June 26, 2007 09:17 PM |
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Quote:
@Istari
Quote:
Jesus had the most respect for the broken and poor. Those who were messed up and new it. He gave his harshest words to the pharisees (the religious leaders).
Yes.
Jesus. Jesus. Jesus.
Not God.
God is obviously different from Jesus. Or at least, Jesus wasn't any closer related to God than we are. Jesus was divine simply because he was a good person; in that time. That's what makes him heavenly. He wasn't God incarnate... God doesn't exist in one person solely; or as an old man sitting on the clouds, watching over us. God is in all of us equally - and by God I mean both God and Devil, both good and bad, simply soul - and no matter how fun the stories about winged men and splitting seas and water walk are, they are just not true. Things are different than that.
Jesus chose the path of enlightenment and good. He mentioned the Abrahamic God because that's the one those people believed in - he tried to bring them love and charity through religion. Unfortunately people started thinking God is a being on its own somewhere in the skies, demanding we bow to it and live by its rules; but it really is a spirit that connects people (and all other living beings) and simply makes them what they are. There is no shame or humility to be felt in that.
Any further dwelling into this topic will cause thinking about things we can't possibly know or hope to know and would be pure guessing, so I'm going to lay down a bit about this. Our message is basically same - love Jesus the way you know is right, not because he's some ruler of the sky or something but because of his beautiful message, and do not follow the Church or its rules blindly. Whether we choose to try to comprehend what's going on in the spiritual level or just leave that be is purely a matter of choice, so that brings this discussion to an end.
Ah yes, there is our problem. Jesus is God incarnate. I could show you that through scripture, but you don't believe the Bible is accurate. I do not know where your sources come from or why you believe bits and pieces of Christianity, but reject some of its core beliefs. Your personal spiritual beliefs don't have any foundation and sound more like someone who is frustrated with the Christian religion and decided to make up his own spiritual beliefs, taking some Christian ideas when it suits you and rejecting others when it doesn't. I can empathise with your frustration, but your solution lacks an internal consistency.
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Opinions are immunity to being told you're wrong.
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Istari
Known Hero
Truth Teller, ToH
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posted June 26, 2007 09:25 PM |
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Quote:
and second... if you believe in the abrahamic god, so you can go to heaven after you die (or so that you can have a relationship with god... i wonder, does he send you flowers in V-day or something?) then... a) most of the time forget to live in the here and now, with friends, family and loved ones ...and b) miss the whole point of christianity, going to heaven should be just a perk, not the basis of faith
You sound like you are riding the fence here. How would a person who doesn't believe in Christianity know what Christians should and shouldn't do? Incedently you are right. Many Christian focus too much getting to heaven and not enough on having a relationship with God here on earth. Loving friends, family and loved ones is a central theme in Christianity.
"Love your neighbor as yourself" -Jesus.
Having a relationship with God effects me, right now- not just when i go to heaven. I haven't gotten flowers from God on Valentines Day, but He shows His love in other ways. (He's not human, remember?)
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Opinions are immunity to being told you're wrong.
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Lith-Maethor
Honorable
Legendary Hero
paid in Coin and Cleavage
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posted June 26, 2007 09:34 PM |
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Istari...
read my first post in this thread (all the way back to page 5 i think) and you will see why and how... no, i am not sitting on the fence, you just misunderstand what being on the other side means
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You are suffering from delusions of adequacy.
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted June 26, 2007 09:41 PM |
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Quote:
Ah yes, there is our problem. Jesus is God incarnate.
I for sure don't know the bible word by word, though I've read a lot of it. And I am pretty sure, Jesus "talks" to his father at least a few times. The most famous words are probably: (forgive me the bad translation, I don't know how it is written in english) "Please let the goblet pass bye, but YOUR will should happen, not mine".
Did Jesus had a split personality when he said that?
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
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posted June 26, 2007 11:03 PM |
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Quote:
Ah yes, there is our problem. Jesus is God incarnate.
*sigh*
I try to leave the conversation nicely, but no... Instead I only get drawn into it deeper. Very well then, let us continue 
Quote:
Jesus is God incarnate. I could show you that through scripture, but you don't believe the Bible is accurate. I do not know where your sources come from or why you believe bits and pieces of Christianity, but reject some of its core beliefs.
Ok, for one, it was the Church who took bits of pieces out of true christianity, and Christ's vision, to put together a system (along with a bible) that suits them. At the Councils of Constantinople the Church accepted some gospels and parts of the bible, and rejected some. And that's what christianity, as you see it, is based upon. On the commercial pickings of the Church. We can't possibly know what was originally written in the bible.
My sources come from history and reason.
Quote:
Your personal spiritual beliefs don't have any foundation
Oh I'm sorry. I can just write a book of fairytales about people walking on water and then my beliefs will have a foundation, right? And then when people prove that wrong I'll say those are metaphores (carefully avoiding to explain them) and they will still count as proof for some reason.
Give me a break. Your religion doesn't have any more foundation than mine.
Quote:
and sound more like someone who is frustrated with the Christian religion and decided to make up his own spiritual beliefs, taking some Christian ideas when it suits you and rejecting others when it doesn't.
No, that's exactly what the Church did. I'm just trying to do it the reversed way - by removing the shackles of the Church from my religion. Christ even fought organized religion, because he knew it only tosses dirt on faith or anything that can't be commercialized.
I tolerate all religions; to me, they are all ok as long as they don't get aggressive. People have the right to believe what they want. Perhaps the masses of people can't comprehend anything that isn't as simplified as organized religion; I don't know. I just modify my own beliefs so that there is sense in them - without crusades, inquisition, jihads, suicide bombings, anything. Just a peaceful, one man religion. But the more agressive a religion is, the more respect it gets. I, on the other hand, am "frustrated", "misguided", and, by some people, "satanist".
Because my opinion differs.
Oh sweet tolerance.
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 27, 2007 01:26 AM |
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Quote:
That's amazing that someone finally has it all figured out (sarcasm, but not the mean kind). You are using religion to bash spirituality, they are not the same thing. Anyways, how did you come to these conclusions? Is it just inherent knowledge to you? (maybe a little jeering, but again, not meant to be mean)
Then define "spirituality".
How did I come to these conclusions?
Well, (to me), religion is obviously false. Then I started thinking about why so many people followed them, and how it came about. And this is what I came up with. Of course, it's an exaggeration.
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Eccentric Opinion
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TitaniumAlloy
Honorable
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Professional
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posted June 27, 2007 04:44 AM |
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Quote:
Quote:
You say that because it sounds good.
Ok now I finally understood why you can't comprehend the notion of God. 
Doesn't science 'look good' as well?
lol. You miss the point of 'looking good'.
If you say something like
"We must forgo the pathetic needs and wants of our meaningless lives in order to achieve enlightenment and a higher purpose."
That sounds good right. Let's do it. But in fact it's meaningless crap that I just made up right now. It's persuasive, but what it really leads to is suicide.
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IBecause atheists are usually the ones which swear and all that, because they're more aggresive. Trust me, from lots of forums
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And by the way, religious people don't insult (for religion, of course) atheists
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(as long as their faithful of course ) because what you believe to be "imaginary" (like blind people call colors imaginary ) is for us real. Atheists call all of "proofs" for God just tricks, or delusional thoughts. But think about yourself -- why do you think your "perception" is not delusional as well? Just because you can see it? Just because YOU can measure it? What if I can measure something that you can't? (maybe you don't have the necessary limbs or intelligence to figure it out). Of course for YOU it's still a delusion.
Blind people can't see, but lights still exists. Just because YOU can't understand those words (and say "sounds good") doesn't mean that anyone else doesn't.
Well first off, blind people can't measure light...
Second, I never said I don't understand those words. I understand them perfectly. That doesn't make them sensible.
And what makes you think that you're better than me, that you have the necessary intelligence and I don't?
And you say you don't insult Atheists, of course not. You just call them disabled and stupid.
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And if I spoke to God, what would you say? Delusion? Illusion? anything else? what if YOU spoke to God (somehow, this is only an example)? What would you expect from others?
To lock me up.
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You don't get those "cool words" in religion that "sound good"... is that a proof that no one can? oh yeah, well for monkeys it's proof already that no one can speak, because they can't
Who said I don't get them? You're making stuff up... well done you've progressed to the next level of religion.  
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It's the same as (pathetic example I know, but I don't know how to make you understand it better): imagine yourself creating some neural networks, a self-aware computer. The problem is, you only put there some artificial neurons (in memory), some other stuff, etc etc.. but you don't tell it what to do (unless he listens to you).. The artificial specie (cyborg) can as well turn against you, he chooses freely.
Sure but the difference is when you create a self aware computer, you don't know exactly what it was going to do depending on how you create it. If you did, you would be in essence controlling it from the start.
If you knew he would turn against you, you could stop him by creating him differently. Or not. Whatever you want. But either way, you're choosing it, not him.
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John says to live above hell.
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JoonasTo
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted June 27, 2007 11:36 AM |
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Quote:
Quote:
And if I spoke to God, what would you say? Delusion? Illusion? anything else? what if YOU spoke to God (somehow, this is only an example)? What would you expect from others?
To lock me up.
Lol!
Oh and some people here seem to think that you have to believe in god to get to heaven. Doesn't it say in the bible that people are saved because of mercy alone and that the crusification was the event that saved us all.
So how does that include believing?
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DON'T BE A NOOB, JOIN A.D.V.E.N.T.U.R.E.
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TitaniumAlloy
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posted June 27, 2007 12:55 PM |
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Yeah that was pretty much a lie. You pretty much have to believe and repent your sins.
What Christ meant was he died so that this was possible at all.
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John says to live above hell.
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TitaniumAlloy
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posted June 28, 2007 06:05 AM |
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John says to live above hell.
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TitaniumAlloy
Honorable
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Professional
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posted June 28, 2007 06:08 AM |
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John says to live above hell.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 28, 2007 03:12 PM |
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Yeah, it sucks. Radical Muslim terrorists are more trusted than atheists are.
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Eccentric Opinion
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necrorevan
Bad-mannered
Hired Hero
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posted June 29, 2007 09:25 AM |
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Very nice Titanium, very nice.
Just keep insulting religion, God and Jesus. It makes you cool, very cool.
Yeah blame religion for all the genocides in the world.
Seriously, don't you think atheist can commit genocides.
Hitler was an extreme atheist and look what he has done.
Yes organised religion has committed genocide because religion was being subbordonnated secretly to politics.
You would be a fool if you think that the crusade was done to liberate the holy land, it was a lie to convince as many followers as they can, while in reality the crusade was for economical and political purposes.
So I would say that religion by nature is peaceful, however when politics take over it, it is transformed from a tool of peace and order to a weapon of control and preserving power.
When Marx said that religion was the drug of the masses, he wasn't wrong. Religion in the 19th century was at the service of the dominant class, so it was used to perserve the social order and horrible injustices by claiming that the poorest will go to heaven.
This is blasphemy and even heresy: true religion commands us to combat injustices all over the world, not to create senseless "solutions".
I think the conflict between believers and atheists should be kept in the relm of theories because the difference is purely theorical not pratical.
I believe that atheists preach peace and order as much as believers. Both have extreme sides, both can be fanatics, both can be killers.
Finally I would like to ask why do you overestimate humans that much?
People often accuse religion of humancentrism but in reality I think that some atheists are humancentric.
They believe that reality is according to how WE percieve it and if WE can't see something or even understand it that means it doesn't exist. When you say God doesn't exist, you are using the strategy of:
"when in doubt, deny all terms and definitions", so you deny spirituality and faith among other notions.
We humans can not percieve the world as GOD does, we can not PERFECTLY understand Him as we would with a natural phenomenon prooved by science.
Our science, thought reliable, is to imperfect to proove the existence and inexistence of GOD.
So in the end We don't KNOW if GOD exists or if he doesn't; some of US feels Him and believes in Him, others don't.
Edit: I replaced "HIM" with Him to avoid confusion
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 29, 2007 03:32 PM |
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Seriously, don't you think atheist can commit genocides.
Though this post was directed at TA, I will respond to it. Of course atheists can commit genocides. But religious people are more likely to be deluded into comitting them.
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Hitler was an extreme atheist and look what he has done.
He was pagan, not an atheist.
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Yes organised religion has committed genocide because religion was being subbordonnated secretly to politics.
Not very secretly. And the reverse was often true as well.
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You would be a fool if you think that the crusade was done to liberate the holy land, it was a lie to convince as many followers as they can, while in reality the crusade was for economical and political purposes.
But that's the way they convinced people to go.
So I would say that religion by nature is peaceful, however when politics take over it, it is transformed from a tool of peace and order to a weapon of control and preserving power.
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When Marx said that religion was the drug of the masses, he wasn't wrong. Religion in the 19th century was at the service of the dominant class,
In the 19th century, religion was in a state of decline. He was more likely referring to the Middle Ages.
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This is blasphemy and even heresy: true religion commands us to combat injustices all over the world, not to create senseless "solutions".
Just because this is what compassionate Christians believe doesn't mean that all religious people believe this.
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I think the conflict between believers and atheists should be kept in the relm of theories because the difference is purely theorical not pratical.
Yes, preferrable in the realm of theories. But the difference is hardly theoretical. Atheists wouldn't go on any crusade. Atheists wouldn't be restricted by religious morals (on topics such as abortion, the death penalty, animal experimentation (but they may have personal morals)).
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I believe that atheists preach peace and order as much as believers. Both have extreme sides, both can be fanatics, both can be killers.
Not many people actively preach peace and order. It's often deceptive as war on infidels and order imposed by the tyrranical majority.
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Finally I would like to ask why do you overestimate humans that much?
People often accuse religion of humancentrism but in reality I think that some atheists are humancentric.
Humans tend to be humancentric because they are humans. They can't see things from the point of view of a worm all the time. Nor do they need to.
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They believe that reality is according to how WE percieve it and if WE can't see something or even understand it that means it doesn't exist.
Whatever senses and instruments are available to us, by those we will judge. We won't make baseless assumptions.
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Eccentric Opinion
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