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| Thread: Dwarf Town Proposal |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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TDL
Honorable
Supreme Hero
The weak suffer. I endure.
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posted June 18, 2006 01:24 AM |
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Edited by TDL at 21:51, 19 Jun 2006.
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RTI
Adventuring Hero
Now known as Rarensu
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posted June 19, 2006 01:25 AM |
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Edited by RTI at 01:27, 19 Jun 2006.
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I would like to see a mechanical unit in the dwarven faction... something like: Warplow > Juggernaught
PS these images are copyrighted by Wizards of the Coast (R)
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Sincerely,
A Proponent of Spelling, Grammar, Punctuation, and Courtesy.
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Gnoll_Mage
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted June 19, 2006 05:50 PM |
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Thanks for some great reading material! I won't evaluate each little bit because you don't want that, but I will say that I'd probably swap levels 5 and 6.
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted June 19, 2006 08:47 PM |
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I must say, this version is better then the last one, IMHO. It has more dwarves and a history and background. Very good indeed. I still say it would be cooler if you had dwarves ride the rocs and garudas, but it isn't necessary.
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Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
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Gnoll_Mage
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted June 19, 2006 10:09 PM |
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 Nice relevant history
Efreet introduction (could more be done here?)
 Could do with a little more interlinking with the timeline?
Not uber keen on the righteous existance thing
Good skill idea and name
A little similar to Artificer?
Great abilities set
Lvl 1
Unique names, good concept for level 1. Exploration good, treasurer not so much to my liking (I prefer having units with me to fight).
Lvl 2
Entrench good, Slayer and Elusiveness seem a little out of place for crossbow dwarves.
Lvl 3
Great all round although Runeshaper perhaps a touch weird.
Lvl 4
Brilliant obviously  
Lvl 5
Great to see this guy down here (he just doesn't seem to be as good as Wight, Treant etc - he is a little tiny man after all). Berserker could be used as a name instead of Crusader, as slightly more relevant?
Lvl 6
Adds uniqueness to the line up, BUT there needs to be something else fire-based for me really, like a chimaera...
Firey morph is great (like one of my own ideas actually)
Absolutely adore 'Fireguard'! 
And that picture too
Lvl 7
Nice level 7; Guardian - Behemoth would be better for me, or at least something that reduces his Dwarf-ness; in fact  Mountain Giant -> Fire Giant would be perfect (picture and throwing ability could in fact almost stay the same for mountain g.) as is unique(ish), fire related, and suitably powerful, AND still related to Dwarves (at least mythologically).
Well there's my general comments, free free to complain and counter / ask specific questions.
Would check for roughly balanced stats but haven't got time at the moment (I want to do it with all the factions actually like I did with H3)
Oh, and, maybe there's a little too many fliers/casters/shooters, especially midgame, not sure how this would pan out though.
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TDL
Honorable
Supreme Hero
The weak suffer. I endure.
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posted June 19, 2006 10:23 PM |
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Artificer similarity - and yes, and no...
This is MAGIC more or less, although among special abilities. Maybe it seems similar as I did not write down all the runes... They should all have "invented" names like Faeldon, Ramgher, Acnor and yet get you the abilities and attribute boosts
And yea, maybe I should turn the guardians into somewhat less guardian like. That pic is what makes it look dwarfish. I could not find anything similar, but it should look like h5 titan, though less human and bigger, broader...
As about the stats - as is said, balancing can always be applied later... Though I do not think I overpowered anything... maybe except crossbowmen in some cases and the guardians. The highest cost should make up for it. And do not forget, balancing can even not be done if you correctly fit in the requirements for the buildings and the whole town tree
I will await for more info... Maybe I will start up a thread to put in every proposal of mine... And yet, I do not want to have three factions added, tho that may be inevitable... I will most probably think of an orcish and naga faction too
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted June 19, 2006 11:24 PM |
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First off: This is excellent!
Let me give some comments:
Skills: Seems good, but it's not 100 % transparent, from the way it's written here. Obviously, the rune thing is rather complex and something entirely new to the game. I'm not quite sure I get the complete picture, but most of it - but I'm not sure I see the *point* in this. Is this something like scrolls? Or does this allow normal creatures to cast the spell? Or does it make the spell permanently active on the unit? The latter seems overpowered ...
Berzerk Charge seems like an utterly dissapointing Ultimate ability to me: In late game, even at 10x damage, the Hero is never going to be a significant factor in battles, I think. The others seem fine, I like Entrench, Dwarven Ward and Mining, that goes well with the race. Defensive Stance is the same as what Knight's counterstrike does, if I'm not mistaken.
Creatures:
Pilgrim / Prospector: Seems ok, but I don't think it's fair to force the player to leave them at home in order to gain anything from their speciality. They're not even good tank units anyway.
Perserver / Besieger: I'm in with Gnoll Mage on the point that Evasion seem completely missplaced with this unit. In fact, evasion just goes very badly with my comprihension of a Dwarf. However, you might modify this, to give them the ability to Entrench (uses 1 action) which will give them 50 % cover (50 % miss chance for towers). That would make sense, and be a nice thing during extended sieges.
Runeshaper / Runemaster: I'm in with you on the idea that a 3rd level caster is appropriate. This one is pretty much similar to my own proposal as one such.
Roc / Garuda: A good unit - however, be aware that this is this town's only flying unit, and this comes at such a low level as level 4. That is a distinct disadvantage (even though the carry unit is going to help them out) and I'm worried that this unit isn't quite strong enough. It has a good and above average amount of Hit Points, but Attack 8 / Defense 6 is a bare minimum, just barely better than the Succubus' 6/6 (and the Succubus has ranged chain shot with ranged retaliation to better it!). Furthermore, damage 8-13 is not exceptional for a level 4 creature, and considering that this is their only unit, which will give it a lot of focus, plus it's horrible stats and poor specials, I think it's gonna come short in close combat.
Crusader / Champion: First of all, the naming is terrible, because this is bound to make confusion with the Haven Squire and Paladin, that is the H5 version of the H3 Crusader and Champion!!! Berzerker seems like a good proposal for a name. Second - obviously a unit that will bash out loads of damage, especially due to the double strike ability, that in my oppinion should be invoked veeeery carefully in order to keep things ballanced! But - again, Defense 13 is minimum at level 5, and a 30 % penalty once the Berzerk-thing is invoked is obviously not going to help it. Also take into account that with a level 6 caster and a level 7 shooter, your level 4 and 5 units is bound to end up taking a lot of beatings - and this one is deffinitely not going to stand up well for it, and neither will the Roc, as I said. Think Tank unit - this town needs one! Attack 18 is great, and Damage 24-38 (!) is way out of line for level 5 units (the current unit with highest damage rating at level 5 is the Djinni with damage 16-22!) - again, don't use double strike without thinking twice, and remember that Minotaurs only come at 12 a-week, Hunters come at 14, and other level 3 units come at 16, 18, 18 and 20.
Efreet / Efreet Fireguard: Always a favorite, the Efreet deserves a place in the game. However, much as I see the obvious choice here, I'm not fond of giving this creature the ability to cast Fireball. Actually, it's a two-edged sword, because we have level 4 and 5 creatures using Fireball, thus, you have to give it Meteor Shower to make it competitive (aka. Pit Lord) - and secondly, I'm afraid you'll overpower this town by giving it a level 6 offensive caster and a level 7 shooter - and then, on the other hand, they need a tank unit. I'm feeling this town would be better off with a level 5 dwarf tank unit - lots of deffensive specials - and a very offensive level 6 Efreet - I'm thinking Fireshield, Fire immunity, good damage, great speed and initiative, good attack, fair defense - something like 24/22, 24-28, 14, 9, 110.
Guardian / Ancestral Guardian: Hmmm ... I have trouble with relating to this one. I think a Fire Giant would be a nice choice as an alternative - you might even wanna go for a Balrog, even though that's obviously very much Inferno-like. Smell is also pretty strong of Titan here, even though it does have the siege ability to make it special. A bit dull, actually, this creature imo.
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Well, that was a lot of text from me ... hope you appreciate it, and it will offer you something.
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TDL
Honorable
Supreme Hero
The weak suffer. I endure.
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posted June 20, 2006 12:01 AM |
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Quote:
First off: This is excellent!
Let me give some comments:
Skills: Seems good, but it's not 100 % transparent, from the way it's written here. Obviously, the rune thing is rather complex and something entirely new to the game. I'm not quite sure I get the complete picture, but most of it - but I'm not sure I see the *point* in this. Is this something like scrolls? Or does this allow normal creatures to cast the spell? Or does it make the spell permanently active on the unit? The latter seems overpowered ...
Berzerk Charge seems like an utterly dissapointing Ultimate ability to me: In late game, even at 10x damage, the Hero is never going to be a significant factor in battles, I think. The others seem fine, I like Entrench, Dwarven Ward and Mining, that goes well with the race. Defensive Stance is the same as what Knight's counterstrike does, if I'm not mistaken.
Creatures:
Pilgrim / Prospector: Seems ok, but I don't think it's fair to force the player to leave them at home in order to gain anything from their speciality. They're not even good tank units anyway.
Perserver / Besieger: I'm in with Gnoll Mage on the point that Evasion seem completely missplaced with this unit. In fact, evasion just goes very badly with my comprihension of a Dwarf. However, you might modify this, to give them the ability to Entrench (uses 1 action) which will give them 50 % cover (50 % miss chance for towers). That would make sense, and be a nice thing during extended sieges.
Runeshaper / Runemaster: I'm in with you on the idea that a 3rd level caster is appropriate. This one is pretty much similar to my own proposal as one such.
Roc / Garuda: A good unit - however, be aware that this is this town's only flying unit, and this comes at such a low level as level 4. That is a distinct disadvantage (even though the carry unit is going to help them out) and I'm worried that this unit isn't quite strong enough. It has a good and above average amount of Hit Points, but Attack 8 / Defense 6 is a bare minimum, just barely better than the Succubus' 6/6 (and the Succubus has ranged chain shot with ranged retaliation to better it!). Furthermore, damage 8-13 is not exceptional for a level 4 creature, and considering that this is their only unit, which will give it a lot of focus, plus it's horrible stats and poor specials, I think it's gonna come short in close combat.
Crusader / Champion: First of all, the naming is terrible, because this is bound to make confusion with the Haven Squire and Paladin, that is the H5 version of the H3 Crusader and Champion!!! Berzerker seems like a good proposal for a name. Second - obviously a unit that will bash out loads of damage, especially due to the double strike ability, that in my oppinion should be invoked veeeery carefully in order to keep things ballanced! But - again, Defense 13 is minimum at level 5, and a 30 % penalty once the Berzerk-thing is invoked is obviously not going to help it. Also take into account that with a level 6 caster and a level 7 shooter, your level 4 and 5 units is bound to end up taking a lot of beatings - and this one is deffinitely not going to stand up well for it, and neither will the Roc, as I said. Think Tank unit - this town needs one! Attack 18 is great, and Damage 24-38 (!) is way out of line for level 5 units (the current unit with highest damage rating at level 5 is the Djinni with damage 16-22!) - again, don't use double strike without thinking twice, and remember that Minotaurs only come at 12 a-week, Hunters come at 14, and other level 3 units come at 16, 18, 18 and 20.
Efreet / Efreet Fireguard: Always a favorite, the Efreet deserves a place in the game. However, much as I see the obvious choice here, I'm not fond of giving this creature the ability to cast Fireball. Actually, it's a two-edged sword, because we have level 4 and 5 creatures using Fireball, thus, you have to give it Meteor Shower to make it competitive (aka. Pit Lord) - and secondly, I'm afraid you'll overpower this town by giving it a level 6 offensive caster and a level 7 shooter - and then, on the other hand, they need a tank unit. I'm feeling this town would be better off with a level 5 dwarf tank unit - lots of deffensive specials - and a very offensive level 6 Efreet - I'm thinking Fireshield, Fire immunity, good damage, great speed and initiative, good attack, fair defense - something like 24/22, 24-28, 14, 9, 110.
Guardian / Ancestral Guardian: Hmmm ... I have trouble with relating to this one. I think a Fire Giant would be a nice choice as an alternative - you might even wanna go for a Balrog, even though that's obviously very much Inferno-like. Smell is also pretty strong of Titan here, even though it does have the siege ability to make it special. A bit dull, actually, this creature imo.
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Well, that was a lot of text from me ... hope you appreciate it, and it will offer you something.
Actually, I could say thanks for the criticism... I needed it... Tho you misunderstood the runemastery... It is like magic, with a bit of artificer feel, but rather like Order Magic from H4. Blessings I mean. No the creatures do not learn the spells. The hero learns from the runestones. You pay gold for them, and they teach you spells that not only increase in effect with mastery level, but also with hero's level as well. Not primary attribute based. Almost not.
Level 1 - Well, that is why I made it weak. Having it earn gold would be more pleasant, whereas the attack unit would be level 2.
Level 2 - Yes, maybe evasion is out of order. Might as well replace with entrench.
Level 3 - Thanks, although I evaded copying a similar.
Level 4 - Well, it is not the only unit that flies. Efreet should not be a CASTER. Not fully. It should be a semi-caster and semi-warrior. What's more, garudae are not that super strong, though much stronger than their griffin counterparts in terms of survival.
Level 5 - OOPS! I thought that the damage 12-19 is divided among the two attacks, not that 12-19 per each attack  Yes, I will change that. And having a weak defence makes it not a tank unit, but I could easily call the one that is VITAL for warlord. Warlord bestows a rune over the crusader and it hacks everything. Though, I should have included dwarven prior to units to make it clearer Maybe the name is clumsy, but I daresay I shall leave it. The only thing to do would be... ahem... add "dwarven" I should say.
Level 6 - Nay, I won't make it top-notch caster. Neither to make it top-notch melee unit. It should be right in the middle: having mediocre overall attributes, casting a fireball on the first move to take out an enemy shooter and storming into the front lines. I am not yet acknowledged with the speed system of this game, thus i do not know what modifier I should insert.
Level 7 - Meh, it is not so dwarf-like! That's just the concept! I was told that this concept is too detailed and might be too dwarf-like. I will consider doing something about it. I will most likely have to extend my Excel worksheet in MS Word when I create the second row of proposals about the orcs
Might as well be overpowered, but as I said, I would like to make him hard to get first. Like the titans which are SO hard to get.
As for the racial skill ultimate ability. *sigh* I do not want to steal ideas from you or be accused even though I had similar ideas that you had even before I posted this and you posted yours proposals. No one will ever equal nature's luck, but maybe something similar to banshee's howl, although with effects that would result in a relatively high morale, luck and initiative increase.
Maybe I did not implement as much balance to runemastery as well, but I will try to make the best out of it in near future. This needs a clearer explanation.
And yet, my effort died in vain. I wanted to create a more or less World of Warcraft related adventurous dwarf concept. Yet the titans here are the crappy mechanical units animated by the mages  Demi-god no more I do not want the dwarves to be so clearly developed though. I would need to create the other towns before posting the final dwarf town version. I remember I once created a nice orcish town. And I remember Frakel's superb ICTC entry
It is actually hard to say what I am gonna change about this. The hardest thing is to actually modify the pictures, as well, to make them symmetric. Yet, i am awaiting for more feedback. Thanks alcibiades. A bit of criticism helps.
I will try to make it as much balanced as possible in future.
P.S. Ever played Gothic? The runes here are something similar to the runes there Although once acquired, they cannot be removed and re-sold.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted June 20, 2006 10:51 AM |
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About the Efreet thing ... I think one should be carefull to aim for a creature that's mediocre in all it's aspects, because the unit will then end up being useless. Better to have some strong sides, and then some weaker sides, at least that's my philosophy. Of course, it might just be my protests against your changes on my beloved Efreet of Heroes 3.
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Zeldor
Known Hero
The Bringer of Pestilence
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posted June 20, 2006 02:48 PM |
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Dwarven crossbowmen should shot with balls, not bolts [could be improved to double crossbow].
Their infantry could use axe=rifle [one-shot rifle joined with axe]
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TDL
Honorable
Supreme Hero
The weak suffer. I endure.
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posted June 21, 2006 01:17 PM |
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Quote:
Dwarven crossbowmen should shot with balls, not bolts [could be improved to double crossbow].
Their infantry could use axe=rifle [one-shot rifle joined with axe]
I wholeheartedly... disagree
It simply would look awkward graphic-wise, not to mention some other likes and dislikes I have.
I would like to see dwarven crossbowmen the way they are. I perfectly remember one book I read (from which I got all the inspiration to create a dwarven town). I would actually like that the dwarven concept would be something similar to that of the book.
And as for the dwarven crossbowmen there, they were simplest dwarves, who carried axes, spears and shields, and yet had crossbows which they used to take out cavalry. And those crossbows were filled up with bolts, not balls (BTW, we already have gremlins to shoot with little cannonballs).
And as for Alci's comment:
No, the unit is a good one, but simply is something like wraith. You can use the spells like Harm Touch (similar to spell cast) and yet you could use it in melee combat. The stats should be mediocre - but not everything. Damage and hit points are average, attack and defence normal, initiative high and speed mediocre. But, being unaffected by certain spell types and affected too much (maybe I did not include the "fire-based" (dis)ability) by cold spells for example. That makes it a mediocre unit, with a spec ability to cast fireball and equal other 6th level critters.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted June 21, 2006 02:06 PM |
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Somewhat like the Wraith yet - but more fragile. Lower stats and perhaps lower hitpoints - like 90 instead of 110 (that was the number of Heroes 3, if I remember). And then much faster and flying, making for a very offensive unit, and less tanklike, where the Wraith falls in that dangerous middle area of neither-nor. Buffed with Fireshield and Fire immunity, possible being able to give Protection from Fire (if such a spell is implementet), but not an offensive caster as such. But that was just my input as to how to make this slightly more ballanced.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted June 22, 2006 10:15 AM |
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He ... Don't succumb to the preassure. It's your ideas, and you should make it the way you like it. I just give my point of view, which is no more true than yours.
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shassz
Adventuring Hero
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posted June 22, 2006 05:28 PM |
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Dragon golems rule the world!(or the dwarfs at least) The 7th level unit with infinite ammo is surely overpowered. Wossup with the trolls? I love em. Dont let them go I like the idea of bringing back the efreets and rocs. Youve made some nice work balancing this nation. In the first version creatures moved a bit fastly in this second 1 only the infinite ammo for a level 7 shooter is a bit harsh.
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Antipaladin
Promising
Legendary Hero
of Ooohs and Aaahs
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posted July 17, 2006 05:08 PM |
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no no no trolls and dwarfs are as same enemys as goblins\orcs and elfs...(depends if you call it in mm7 or in homm3wog..)
i think that there should be the dwarfish axemen,a hobbit slinger and crossbowmen the guarada's a stoneguardien a rune master and golem dragon...
dwarfs should have high endurance,strenght,and intelect but low accursy and speed..they tend to use glasses...and most will have,meaning the crossbow men will have penelty but he will do good demge from close ranges too...
efreeti and dwarf..? i just dont see the connection..
emmm phraphs u bring the kreegen back?
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Homer171
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted July 17, 2006 07:48 PM |
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I like your work TDL but there are some thinks i disslike. Efreet is in wrong place imo. Some creatures have lower speed when you upgrade them and that's fine. But it's really annoying if initiative is lower in upgrades! Otherwise creatures in both posts are really great!
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Daystar
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Back from the Dead
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posted July 29, 2006 04:53 PM |
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Edited by Daystar at 01:23, 04 Aug 2006.
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Wow, this is quite good! Do you happen to have a translation for the futhark around your pictures on page two?
never mind, they say, the larb az, repeating.
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How exactly is luck a skill?
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Sindbad
Famous Hero
The lost soul
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posted August 05, 2006 11:50 AM |
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Hey! A good idea - forget the ability of dwarven miners! Heres a new one - If u put 20 miners in the garrison of a mine it doubles production! (for example: sulfur mine - no miners:1 sulphur, 20 miners:2 sulphur, 40 miners:3 sulphur... and so on) Upgraded miners - u need only 15 to double production! What do u say? 
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Already gone...
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Sindbad
Famous Hero
The lost soul
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posted August 05, 2006 11:58 AM |
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TDL, I dont like your town (sorry). Doesnt sound like the dwarves I have in imagination. I must say - your town is original, but some things just dont fit together. 
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Already gone...
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Daystar
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Back from the Dead
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posted August 06, 2006 07:15 PM |
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I agree with both previous posts, and I liked the Wyrm
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How exactly is luck a skill?
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