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| Thread: Why does HOMM5 send encrypted data to UBI? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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painbringer
Tavern Dweller
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posted June 19, 2006 02:42 PM |
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Why does HOMM5 send encrypted data to UBI?
Just a heads up if someone missed it, HOMM5 is datamining and sending data back home while you play.
http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/1851065692/m/7181073944
I hope they only collect information about the game, when and how i play, if i cheat, who i play with and so on...
The are not interrested in telling exactly what they are collecting and send the data back home encrypted..
They do however admit they are collecting data, when asked directly on their forums.
Fun stuff...
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rumagent
Tavern Dweller
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posted June 19, 2006 03:02 PM |
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Edited by rumagent at 15:03, 19 Jun 2006.
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I am pretty sure it is in the EULA. Without an obvious opt-out (I do not consider a firewall an opt-out) it is still pretty snowty behavior on part of UBI/Nival though.
Edit: Why am I being ****?
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painbringer
Tavern Dweller
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posted June 19, 2006 04:01 PM |
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Quote:
I am pretty sure it is in the EULA. Without an obvious opt-out (I do not consider a firewall an opt-out) it is still pretty snowty behavior on part of UBI/Nival though.
Edit: Why am I being ****?
First of all, what is in the EULA is not the issue, the issue is that they are datamining without my consent.
Second, it is not explicitly in the EULA. (read it)
Third, even if it was, having an EULA that is not printed on the shrinkwrap is not legally binding anywhere afaik. Certainly in no industrial country.
(In some places, if you are made aware of it when buying and it's on the shrinkwrap it can be binding)
Fourth, having an eula that refers you to a modifyable webpage and claiming it valid, is hillarious at best.
I can say "If you read this, you owe me a car" that doesnt make you owe me a car. With the most minor bit of googling, you will find out that eula's presented after you have bought a product are absolutely null and void, furthermore that even writing "you owe me a car" in an eula doesnt make you owe me a car, unless I get your express written or oral consent.
I do not recall granting ubi free "take what you want" access to my PC, sorry. To me that is a major issue.
If they write on their webpage that my PC is actually theirs, I will not fork it over, even if it's the webpage linked to in their EULA.
- You might, or.. maybe you draw the line that they can take your data and personal information, as long as it's not a physical product?
Welcome to year 1950, now data has value!
If you allow people to datamine your PC and take what they want, they can soon make games free and instead get the money from datamining you and selling it. Your information might be worth more than 50$ for a game, alot more.
It's a line that's been crossed once more and it's a major one.
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OOPMan
Adventuring Hero
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posted June 19, 2006 04:55 PM |
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Erm, are you totally sure this is valid?
If the data is encrypted, how can you be sure they're doing anything other than verfiying that you're using a valid copy of H5?
Having taken a look at the thread you linked to it appears that the H5 tech support revealed that the function of sendstats.exe is:
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Sendstats.exe is a small program that runs only while the game is running, and sends limited information back to Ubisoft. This information includes stats on how long you play our games, how often, when, etc. I was told that no additional personal or private information is being collected nor transmitted.
According to the Heroes of Might and Magic V EULA (End User Licence Agreement) which must be agreed upon installation of the game, Ubisoft has the right to collect limited data based on user behavior. Details on Ubisoft’s data collection policies are available at http://www.ubi.com/us/Info/Info.aspx?tagname=PrivacyPolicy
Obviously, if you do not wish to allow this application to connect back to our servers via your firewall program, this is your right. I hope this information helps.
So there you go. Use your firewall to block the app and stop making it sound like it's some kind of huge conspiracy theory or something.
Yes, it's a pain that this app is bundled, but then and agaiun that's what happens when you big corporations (Ie, The game publishers) take over an industry (The games industry).
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It's all fun and games, until someone loses an eye...
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painbringer
Tavern Dweller
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posted June 19, 2006 05:27 PM |
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The issue is, I paid money for a game and they took something that was mine. - What I do with what I buy, is my concern. That information is mine. I hope that was all they took.
I have no way of knowing what they took, since they encrypted it.
- I wish they didn't. Why did they need to?
I was not offered a choice.
All the evidence I have of what they took, is a developer that makes a post on a forum I read by accident and his post of what they took includes an "etc". This makes me confident indeed!
I am sure that post is legally binding.. right.
They probably did nothing bad and probably won't.
Hey, let me browse trough your PC with a remote login, I wont do anything. You even have my post here as proof that i wont!
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Tarbo
Tavern Dweller
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posted June 19, 2006 06:18 PM |
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Encryption =?= secrecy
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I have no way of knowing what they took, since they encrypted it.
- I wish they didn't. Why did they need to?
Formally, encryption is to ensure confidentiality between sender and receiver. The fact that you as sender don't know what is being sent is worrying, but certainly not unique.
There's a bit of a Catch-22 here. If the data is encrypted to preserve privacy, then it begs the question what exactly is being taken. From this angle, if our privacy is not endangered, then why bother encrypting it?
Because there are alternate uses to encryption methods. Typically, they are also integrity and identity checkers: is the data being sent correct (and not corrupted or intentionally changed somehow), and is it our own program sending it?
My point being that encryption does not guarantee bad intentions.
Most likely, it's simply standard policy, as with many programs that interact with eachother (like a mail client).
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Hey, let me browse trough your PC with a remote login, I wont do anything. You even have my post here as proof that i wont!
The point that OOPMan is trying to make, I wager, is that this is no surprise to the ones that have read the EULA; I, for one, have skimmed through the EULA and noticed this beforehand. And I have issues with it, but at least they publicly admit they collect information.
Most of the EULA is indeed not legally binding (at least not in my country), but unless you're going to sue, this is not really relevant.
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rumagent
Tavern Dweller
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posted June 19, 2006 06:19 PM |
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First of all, what is in the EULA is not the issue, the issue is that they are datamining without my consent.
You have given it in the EULA.
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Second, it is not explicitly in the EULA. (read it)
From The EULA:
"The User acknowledges that Ubisoft may collect and use certain User data"
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Third, even if it was, having an EULA that is not printed on the shrinkwrap is not legally binding anywhere afaik. Certainly in no industrial country.
(In some places, if you are made aware of it when buying and it's on the shrinkwrap it can be binding)
I am not a lawyer...
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Fourth, having an eula that refers you to a modifyable webpage and claiming it valid, is hillarious at best.
I agree.
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I can say "If you read this, you owe me a car" that doesnt make you owe me a car. With the most minor bit of googling, you will find out that eula's presented after you have bought a product are absolutely null and void, furthermore that even writing "you owe me a car" in an eula doesnt make you owe me a car, unless I get your express written or oral consent.
Physical objects are not the same as information. E.g. Copyright vs theft.
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I do not recall granting ubi free "take what you want" access to my PC, sorry. To me that is a major issue.
The scope is defined here: http://www.ubi.com/us/Info/Info.aspx?tagname=PrivacyPolicy
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If they write on their webpage that my PC is actually theirs, I will not fork it over, even if it's the webpage linked to in their EULA.
- You might, or.. maybe you draw the line that they can take your data and personal information, as long as it's not a physical product?
I cannot follow your argument.
Quote:
Welcome to year 1950, now data has value!
If you allow people to datamine your PC and take what they want, they can soon make games free and instead get the money from datamining you and selling it. Your information might be worth more than 50$ for a game, alot more.
I cannot follow your argument.
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It's a line that's been crossed once more and it's a major one.
Unfortunatly it is common. I do not like it either, hence the inital remark about opt-out.
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Gus
Known Hero
Not-So-Bright Crusader
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posted June 19, 2006 08:51 PM |
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once again, the "you agreed to this with the EULA"-bit is ludicrous. just read his posts again, he has explained and illustrated this much better than i could.
Also, i'm somewhat alarmed when i see reactions such as "they all do this". YES!! they do! That's why we have to protest, instead of just bending over and accept our privacy to be invaded... I mean, even if GAMES steal your info, you should be upset and alarmed, not saying "others do it too".
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If Pacman had affected us as kids we'd be running around in dark rooms, munching pills and listening to repetitive music.
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rumagent
Tavern Dweller
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posted June 19, 2006 10:47 PM |
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once again, the "you agreed to this with the EULA"-bit is ludicrous. just read his posts again, he has explained and illustrated this much better than i could.
I suppose this is aimed at me. I do not follow his argument for two reasons. Firstly, I am not a lawyer. Secondly, the arguments and examples leap between property and intellectual property rights - this may be correct in the States (again I am not a lawyer), but in most of Europe it would invalidate the argument/example.
I do get that he does not like the gathering of data (neither do I), but I do not understand the examples nor the points he tries to illustrate. This may be because English is my second language. If this is the case I apologize.
Quote:
Also, i'm somewhat alarmed when i see reactions such as "they all do this". YES!! they do! That's why we have to protest, instead of just bending over and accept our privacy to be invaded... I mean, even if GAMES steal your info, you should be upset and alarmed, not saying "others do it too".
What do you suggest we do? Write angry posts on x forums? Create online petitions? I purchased the game and I am going to play it.
I do agree that the form in which it is done stinks. If they had stated clearly which information were collected and why, and had provided an opt-out there would not have been a problem. The problem is that the collection is carried out underhanded.
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Gus
Known Hero
Not-So-Bright Crusader
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posted June 19, 2006 11:14 PM |
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I purchased the game and I am going to play it.
I do agree that the form in which it is done stinks. If they had stated clearly which information were collected and why, and had provided an opt-out there would not have been a problem. The problem is that the collection is carried out underhanded.
Exactly! You bought it, so why should you have to bear with them putting spyware in it? Or why should you simply renounce to use it when you accidentally discover it spys on you, while you paid for it?
I insist on this because "if you don't like this don't play the game" is a commonly given answer to this spyware problem, and this is definitely not a valid answer.
There would be no problem if they didn't encrypt data AND asked you whether or not you want to send your info. But writing in the EULA you agree to some policy on a webpage that can change at any moment is a very bad joke, and this should be enough to prevent people from supporting Ubi on this.
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If Pacman had affected us as kids we'd be running around in dark rooms, munching pills and listening to repetitive music.
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rumagent
Tavern Dweller
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posted June 19, 2006 11:34 PM |
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Exactly! You bought it, so why should you have to bear with them putting spyware in it? Or why should you simply renounce to use it when you accidentally discover it spys on you, while you paid for it?
I insist on this because "if you don't like this don't play the game" is a commonly given answer to this spyware problem, and this is definitely not a valid answer.
There would be no problem if they didn't encrypt data AND asked you whether or not you want to send your info. But writing in the EULA you agree to some policy on a webpage that can change at any moment is a very bad joke, and this should be enough to prevent people from supporting Ubi on this.
It would seem that we agree
How to deal with this kind of behavior is another matter entirely. I mean if HoMM6 was released tomorrow, I would buy it regardless of how much data they (attempted) to collect. I probably should refrain from buying it, but I am weak and will buy pretty much any turn based strategy game released.
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Gus
Known Hero
Not-So-Bright Crusader
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posted June 19, 2006 11:53 PM |
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you should buy it and protest they sell you a game but feel the need to add things you are unaware of in it. This is bad practice and should be fought against.
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If Pacman had affected us as kids we'd be running around in dark rooms, munching pills and listening to repetitive music.
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rumagent
Tavern Dweller
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posted June 20, 2006 12:57 AM |
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I understand what you say. Unfortunately, I think the only effective way to combat this kind of behavior is not to buy the product. However, it is analogous to me complaining that my crack dealer smells bad. In the end, no matter how bad he reeks, I will buy the stuff.
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igniteice
Tavern Dweller
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posted June 20, 2006 04:57 AM |
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Okay, seriously, the majority of you need to get a real problem. Find something more important in life to whine about and find someone real important to tell about it.
This crap does not matter. Who cares what Ubisoft knows about you anyway. Until someone knocks on your door and demands your life, shut the hell up.
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OOPMan
Adventuring Hero
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posted June 20, 2006 11:44 AM |
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Agreed. Stop wasting forum space with posts like "Ubisoft stole my data and told the world I have a 60gbn collection of child pr0n" and just install a prope firewall.
Blah blah blah datamining blah blah blah. If they can find a way to datamine around ZoneAlaram then more power to them.
Until they do so, however, I don't think I really care what Ubisoft tries to do with sendstats.exe, because it'll just fail.
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It's all fun and games, until someone loses an eye...
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Gus
Known Hero
Not-So-Bright Crusader
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posted June 20, 2006 01:23 PM |
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Edited by Gus at 13:25, 20 Jun 2006.
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okaaaaaaay
@igniteice
you've been reported to a mod. A forum is a place where you discuss, not a place where you can take advantage of the fact you're hidden behind your screen to insult people.
@OOP
You don't care about invasion of your privacy? Great, more power to you. The "get a firewall" argument is nonsense. That's like saying that thievery is alright, you just need to lock your doors. Wrong, you need to lock your doors because there is thievery out there, but you should not accept it when you know where it comes from. When you know someone tries to sneak in your house, you call the police, right? You don't think "well, more power to them, they have circumvented my house protection".
EDIT: oh, and please stop with the clichés about child porn. You don't buy anything on the internet? You don't go to any site where they ask you for a login and password? You think that it's ok to render public your internet history, etc? If so, then why do you use a firewall in the first place, since you obviously don't care about privacy? If not, then please stop taking extreme and stupid examples, and stop telling legitimate users who are being spyware'd in their back to "stop wasting forum space".
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If Pacman had affected us as kids we'd be running around in dark rooms, munching pills and listening to repetitive music.
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bjorn190
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Jebus maker
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posted June 20, 2006 01:39 PM |
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It has to do with the surveilance society.
They know that you want to play their game, so they take advantage of that to put in datamining. They want information from you, to increase their control.
You like the game so you don't really mind. You will play it anyway.
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Valeriy
Mage of the Land
Naughty, Naughty Valeriy
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posted June 20, 2006 02:42 PM |
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igniteice, I'd have to agree here. This forum is for discussion, not for being rude to people. Please state your opinion without being rude to people.
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You can wait for others to do it, but if they don't know how, you'll wait forever.
Be an example of what you want to see on HC and in the world.
http://www.heroesofmightandmagic.com
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OOPMan
Adventuring Hero
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posted June 20, 2006 05:35 PM |
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Invasion of privacy is one thing...
Moronic conspiracy rumour-mongering is quite another...
Like I said, install a proper FireWall and if you really want to be extra-sure, just use PGP to encrypt every bit of data you ever touch.
Almost every post with regard to this just has the same paranoid tone to it, as tone which is silly.
If you have problems with Ubi, don't buy games they publish. Or use a Firewall. Don't moan and groan and expect the rest of the world to hold your hand, pat you on wrist and say "There, there, it's all right, we'll sue them into the grave" when some cannt corporate pig decides to take advantage of the fact that you're too lazy to deal with your own PC security...
No, this post is not directed at a specific you, it's just written quickly, since I'm off home from work now...
Seriously though people, deal with you security problems, don't run around crying and whining like small children...
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It's all fun and games, until someone loses an eye...
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Gus
Known Hero
Not-So-Bright Crusader
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posted June 20, 2006 06:01 PM |
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no no no... and please, stop trying to be insulting or i'll start being it myself... I have a degree in computer science, i don't need anyone, let alone some guy on a game forum, to tell me how to deal with my pc security, thanks. so you can keep your "crying like children" for yourself or your friends, or people you know, but not for me or for anyone else you don't seem to understand the point.
now that is out, let's continue this discussion in a friendly manner (because you WILL be friendly from then on, right?).
Your answer is scary. Simply, scary. I could develop and all, but i'm just going to repeat what i've said before: do you think it's alright that people sneak into your house because your protection is not solid enough? Do you think it's "crying like children" when you report a B&E to the police?
If you do, then i have nothing to add, this shows why your argument is wrong. If you don't think it's alright, then please stop criticizing when others bring similar facts to the attention of the public (because, yes, datamining without your consent is thievery, and if the data had no value, there wouldn't be so many spywares around, would there?).
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If Pacman had affected us as kids we'd be running around in dark rooms, munching pills and listening to repetitive music.
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