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| Thread: Upkeep, food limit, cap for the stacks... | |
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Haldowan
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 21, 2006 01:00 PM |
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Edited by Haldowan at 15:12, 21 Jul 2006.
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Upkeep, food limit, cap for the stacks...
There is already a kind of upkeep in Heroes. You can have only one capitol, wich (with addiotional gold mine) gives you 35k gold/week. Each expansion gives only 14k gold, so you can't buy all units of both towns on the new week (need +60k gold). I think it is like that for balance reasons.
Nethertheless, Necropolis and Haven are the two factions able to have one stack of 500 ranged units early in the game. That's not an issue but like it has been said, with infinite gold Haven can have thousands of paladins, via Necromancy, Shrine of the Netherworld and Herald of Death Necropolis can have billions of archers.
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I won't try to say that the hero can't manage too many units on his own, it's irrevelant because it is a game. But I think that maybe it would be a good thing if there were a limit of the number of units per stack in the army. Something like :
-1k tier 1 units
-500k tier 2 units
-250 tier 3 units
-125 tier 4 units
-60 tier 5 units
-30 tier 6 units
-15 tier 7 units
Like you can see, this is a very good army and if you have the gold and 2-3 towns of the same faction, it is very possible to get. Some will say that Spectral dragons are the less powerful tier 7 unit and that's not fair. I'll reply that they are numerous and cheaper, it is not an issue, you will have to rush sooner that's all.
One more thing, level up one hero beyond 20 is just a waste of good xp if you already have the right skills. By capping the number of units per stack, players will be have to fight sooner or bring two heroes to defeat one powerfull opponent.
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A little word for the skill diplomacy. This is one of the useless skill of the game because once you have your 7 stacks you can't add them to your army unless by throwning away units which you have paid for. It will be good if the units acquired by diplomacy were able to join your main town and wait until you manage them.
By adding this undead players will be able to send units acquired by necromancy or herald of death to main town if they reach the cap. I don't know if units acquired by herald of death are upgraded or not, if not that's better to be able to send them to your town for upgrade. If you have 7 upgraded units in your army, unupgraded units can't join, that's why diplomacy is useless.
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Last thing to say, that is about the Shrine of the Netherworld. Necropolis is able to hire units of another faction and turn them into undead. Ok but this is kind of imbalanced if they rush (with Naadir it's pretty funny ^^) and have two towns, each next to the other, early in the game. If there is no limit they can win the game with ease.
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I'd like the number of units per stacks to be caped for all factions (And by adding this, the devs will have to work on the AI who is unable to compete with us once we have equal number of units and same level hero  ). If that isn't possible, there should one form of upkeep cost.
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hellwitch
Known Hero
Skeleton Ruler
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posted July 21, 2006 03:53 PM |
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Quote:
I won't try to say that the hero can't manage too many units on his own, it's irrevelant because it is a game. But I think that maybe it would be a good thing if there were a limit of the number of units per stack in the army. Something like :
-1k tier 1 units
-500k tier 2 units
-250 tier 3 units
-125 tier 4 units
-60 tier 5 units
-30 tier 6 units
-15 tier 7 units
quote]
I don't think this is good idea, because there were map and tournaments with victory rule - to get biggest army. Why to restrict such possible type of games?
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Haldowan
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 21, 2006 06:38 PM |
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Edited by Haldowan at 19:08, 21 Jul 2006.
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I didn't know this. Thanks for info, I'm still new to this game and I found that's really strange to have so many units. I'm more confortable with small number and micro-management. That's very personal tough, I prefer play with the tier 1, 2, 3 and 4 units because you have to take care of them or they die easilly. I'm fond of them, not like these awful big breathers of death called dragons .
Some players are complaining that Undead are under or overpowered. Why ? Just because of numbers. I thought about what I knew about games (played a lot of them) and I ask you if that can apply to this game.
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Klaital
Known Hero
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posted July 21, 2006 07:37 PM |
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Herald of Death changes them to the same state that they were... if they were upgraded to begin with it changes them to upgraded, and vice versa.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted July 21, 2006 09:21 PM |
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Apart from scenario needs(victory condition,large army garrisons etc) and many devoted fans it is still not easy to implement.Say using necromancy you get 1000 skellies and have no room.The extra ones cannot vanish it would be unfair.The same goes for diplomacy.What if you have 14 archdevils and are offered a stack of 5? I believe stacks with unlimited numbers were a sourse of problems for H4 since the heroes could only get so good.A hero couldn't compare to 50 dragons!But while I prefer to battle with low tier creatures(any casualty counts!) still having a stack of 20+ black dragons can be major fun!You'll get used to it.Or if not make sure your enemies won't accumulate too many creatures by defeating them!
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Haldowan
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 21, 2006 09:53 PM |
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Edited by Haldowan at 21:53, 21 Jul 2006.
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Quote:
Apart from scenario needs(victory condition,large army garrisons etc) and many devoted fans it is still not easy to implement.Say using necromancy you get 1000 skellies and have no room.The extra ones cannot vanish it would be unfair.The same goes for diplomacy.What if you have 14 archdevils and are offered a stack of 5?
I tried to offer some use of diplomacy, but I think you didn't read me enough or my english isn't correct.
A little word for the skill diplomacy. This is one of the useless skill of the game because once you have your 7 stacks you can't add them to your army unless by throwning away units which you have paid for. It will be good if the units acquired by diplomacy were able to join your main town and wait until you manage them.
By adding this undead players will be able to send units acquired by necromancy or herald of death to main town if they reach the cap. I don't know if units acquired by herald of death are upgraded or not, if not that's better to be able to send them to your town for upgrade. If you have 7 upgraded units in your army, unupgraded units can't join, that's why diplomacy is useless.
Quote:
I believe stacks with unlimited numbers were a sourse of problems for H4 since the heroes could only get so good.A hero couldn't compare to 50 dragons!
I'll give you that.
Quote:
But while I prefer to battle with low tier creatures(any casualty counts!) still having a stack of 20+ black dragons can be major fun!You'll get used to it.Or if not make sure your enemies won't accumulate too many creatures by defeating them!
Yes, I'll get used to it or... blast away my enemy before he can do anything  . What's wrong ? It is that on some maps, you can not reach enemies because of some dumb lvl 6-7 creatures blocking the ways for long time. I prefer let them here and lvl up for Instant travel. I will be able to strike, and if something get wrong I still have a nice wall to protect me. But the game will be longer in that case and they will have hated dragons.
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Miru
Supreme Hero
A leaf in the river of time
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posted July 21, 2006 10:08 PM |
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Edited by Miru at 01:09, 23 Jul 2006.
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You are not the first to think of this, and many people wouldn't like it, so it should be optional (like ghost mode, or dynamic combat)
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I wish I were employed by a stupendous paragraph, with capitalized English words and expressions.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted July 21, 2006 10:14 PM |
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Quote:
I tried to offer some use of diplomacy, but I think you didn't read me enough or my english isn't correct.
A little word for the skill diplomacy. This is one of the useless skill of the game because once you have your 7 stacks you can't add them to your army unless by throwning away units which you have paid for. It will be good if the units acquired by diplomacy were able to join your main town and wait until you manage them.
By adding this undead players will be able to send units acquired by necromancy or herald of death to main town if they reach the cap. I don't know if units acquired by herald of death are upgraded or not, if not that's better to be able to send them to your town for upgrade. If you have 7 upgraded units in your army, unupgraded units can't join, that's why diplomacy is useless.
Quote:
But while I prefer to battle with low tier creatures(any casualty counts!) still having a stack of 20+ black dragons can be major fun!You'll get used to it.Or if not make sure your enemies won't accumulate too many creatures by defeating them!
Yes, I'll get used to it or... blast away my enemy before he can do anything . What's wrong ? It is that on some maps, you can not reach enemies because of some dumb lvl 6-7 creatures blocking the ways for long time. I prefer let them here and lvl up for Instant travel. I will be able to strike, and if something get wrong I still have a nice wall to protect me. But the game will be longer in that case and they will have hated dragons.
Nah you are fine.I guess I was a bit careless at the time!And no way diplomacy is useless!I had won some game because of it a while back.
Try it out!
1)Get diplomacy
2)Let as many creatures as you can join you(preferably of like alignment)
3)Fight the enemy
4)If you lose retreat and attack again with all the creatures you have not been buying all this time
Apart from instant travel you might as well fight the stacks for experience(excluding some powerful breath attacking,ranged or otherwise fast units!).What of the AI btw?Does it ever attack such neutrals?Before a few months have passed hopefully..?Where are you from anyway?
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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BigBadVoodoo
A poster
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posted July 22, 2006 01:53 AM |
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micromanagement? The combat is turn based...
and, no, there should not be caps on unit numbers.
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Haldowan
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 22, 2006 07:43 AM |
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Quote:
micromanagement? The combat is turn based...
and, no, there should not be caps on unit numbers.
Huh, I know that the combat is turn based, we all know this statement. All I was trying to say is that I have more fun playing with low tier units because I have to take care of every unit. You really have to think about their wealth. When you bring blessed tier 6-7 units their damage output and damage mitigation are just too good against creep since your hero (and artifacts by the way) adds to their attack/defense. If the term micro is not good, give me another one for what I meant.
About caps on unit numbers, I think it would be good if you say why you think so. There are many guys reading the forums you'd better explain your thought a little, it would be more interresting for me and for us. I'm new to this game and your answer doesn't help much at the moment.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted July 22, 2006 07:47 AM |
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Epic battles with thousands of units are fun, and this is no warcraft to limit it, since it's just a number, not the rts "ammount of units". limiting wouldn't change anything except it would ruin the HOMM idea that was there since H1.
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Haldowan
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 22, 2006 08:39 AM |
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Thanks Doom, I'll get used to it... Epic battles, yay  . I just got angry when my stacks get one-shotted at the start of some battles.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted July 22, 2006 09:24 AM |
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Well, shooters ain't that deadly in h5 anyway 
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Dragoni
Hired Hero
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posted July 22, 2006 09:39 AM |
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out of topic but....
you say heroes couldnt compare to 50+ black dragons in H4??
well I have killed 80 black dragons with hero only. yes I had no army with me
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted July 22, 2006 09:54 AM |
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o_O
can you explain what skills and level you had? I'm a bad h4 gamer and I keep losing heroes to stronger creatures of my enemy each time (and always vs. devils)
sorry for the offtopic, but i'm curious
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted July 22, 2006 01:12 PM |
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Quote:
out of topic but....
you say heroes couldnt compare to 50+ black dragons in H4??
well I have killed 80 black dragons with hero only. yes I had no army with me
I guess it's not so hard if you play a barbarian in a many month game.But I get the feeling you were fighting blackies in divided stacks no?You get 2 double ranged attacks before they reach you,retaliate before they attack and use their breath against them(having artifacts can help too).If you face a combined stack against a human player(within reasonable xp limits) you will have some problems.Lvl 4 creatures are usually followed by large stacks of other creatures and not all heroes could deal as easily with such a threat.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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ZeroXcuses
Known Hero
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posted July 23, 2006 01:04 AM |
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Grandmaster Combat made your hero neigh untouchable in H4. Add a couple of potions before and during battle (like the one that resurrects your hero automatically in the battle), first strike, double attack, a retribution or two, and your hero could easily "off" 80+ Black Dragons. Insane!!!!
And this topic creator needs to go back and play Blizzard RTS. Micromanagement? Upkeep? Unit caps? LoL! Foolishness.
Just by reading that, I'm going to re-install Red Alert 2 and build 100+ tanks. Unit cap my behind!
Better yet, I'm going to raise 5K Skeleton Archers...because I can!
 @ Doomforge and his Necro playa hatin. I bet if Irresistable Magic didn't work on Black Dragons and Empowered spells worked with Warlock's Luck, he wouldn't complain about Necro so much.
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Miru
Supreme Hero
A leaf in the river of time
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posted July 23, 2006 01:11 AM |
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Quote:
... and your hero could easily "off" 80+ Black Dragons. Insane!!!!
Waaaay exagerated. Mabey 15
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I wish I were employed by a stupendous paragraph, with capitalized English words and expressions.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted July 23, 2006 08:59 AM |
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@ Doomforge and his Necro playa hatin. I bet if Irresistable Magic didn't work on Black Dragons and Empowered spells worked with Warlock's Luck, he wouldn't complain about Necro so much.
I'd complain about dungeon then!! 
Well, to be exact, I like necropolis.
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Haldowan
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 23, 2006 11:35 AM |
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Quote:
[url=http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=17841&pagenumber=5]You are not the first to think of this[/url], and many people wouldn't like it, so it should be optional (like ghost mode, or dynamic combat)
Ok, you've just edited this one, lol . Thanks for info, if it was (were ?) optional, then yes, it would be much better. I don't like limits but I thought something was wrong.
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