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| Thread: Dungeon overpowered? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Demortae
Adventuring Hero
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posted August 11, 2006 03:42 PM |
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Edited by Demortae at 15:58, 11 Aug 2006.
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Assassin: as I wrote before, great unit earlygame (several poison shots, that goes melee) and great in REALLY big numbers (but with such a pathetic growth you'll never reach the HIGH numbers -__-). Its not prior to kill, so it can safely poison some enemies. After that, it's damage is terrible and it completely won't matter on the battlefield.
If you can avoid losing them at the start, you can amass enough, their poison makes them the #1 1st tier unit in my book. They are great to down enemy shooters with (their attack + poison kicks in before enemy shoots + i like to toss in a decay [or mass if he's got friends beside him] if I have dark magic and the stack is a particular threat). Also, they are by far, the most durable 1st tier unit and have no melee penalty. So as long as they aren't taking the retaliation, they are still a force post-ammo. The low growth rate is the only thing that even starts to balance the tier out.
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Blood fury - VERY overlooked unit. Totally owns creeps, but a smart human player will rape them with an offensive spell, dangerous because of their poor spell points. If he has a good shooter, he can kill ALL of them within 1 turn without any problems, too, so you may forget about furies later on.
Great unit, depending on the battle since they are so fragile (of course, they make good fodder if your lacking). Their great initiative and long range makes it so (with a little work) you can put the enemy caster on the defensive.
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Minotaur Guard - Good unit, but somewhat betrayed by it's miserable speed. Takes ages to enter the battle, and dies quickly due to pathetic defense (they will just get shot after lizards and furies die)
Haste...teleport...'nough said...or use them to control enemy positioning (noone wants to get double thwacked...especially if you have something to take out their retaliation first.)
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Dark Raider - the very best dungeon unit, meaning enemies will utilize warlock's low defense ganging up on this creature. It's fast and can score a LOT of damage, but it will probably die fast because every creature and shooter will go after it in the beginning. It's already dead vs. haven, because it's likely to see paladins charging across the screen to kill them all in the first round, before they can even react.
The one thing that the dungeon troops have is damage output, you don't have to rely on a single troop for that. So if you know what their target will be, use it to your advantage.
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Deep Hydra - Another extra slow unit. Hard to utilize the all-around attack, because it's a big creature. Well, needless to say, not a bad thing with something like teleport assault. But don't expect them to be able to win the combat for you ;P
These are the dungeon's best defense troop, last to be targetted too, which means its likely the enemy doesn't have enough left to take them down quick and they will gain hp's every round. This can be the one that the enemy doesn't have enough left to kill.
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Shadow Matriarch - bad shooter with poor damage and crappy spells, except slow. They are quite durable, tho, but still, comparing them to creatures like paladins.. well, they suck.
Decent spell list (no damage spells, but slow, vuln, and confusion are all great), good power, lucky hit gets a free spell (in melee), and a good shooter. (their damage is comparable to other lvl 6's and they shoot).
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Black Dragon - Good unit, but it's so expensive that it's not possible to get them in an average multiplayer game. Bad initiative for a lvl 7 unit, too (10), and they aren't really as hot as in previous Heroes games, because 240 HP isn't really hot. Plus, no more dragogeddon. bummer.
If its a rich map, sure why not? If it isn't....pretend they don't exist. Played right, a warlock doesn't need them.
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As you can see, most of the units are average-to-bad, except lizards which WILL be taken out by spells or pure force very early and blacks which you'll never obtain. That means a powercreep and an midgame assault can be really dangerous (due to the spells), but their early and late game is really nothing special.
Early and mid-game they are great, late-game they can be great. Elemental chains is icing on the cake, damage will always be high with a warlock (might or magic) the trick is to be able to survive (with a comparable army) to fight end-game. For this reason, I usually go with either light or dark magic despite the temptation of the destruction mid-game.
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ismail222
Known Hero
The Cataclysm
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posted August 12, 2006 07:33 AM |
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Nope dungeon is good and haven not that problem for sylvan or me with dungeon tho...
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ismail222
Known Hero
The Cataclysm
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posted August 12, 2006 07:36 AM |
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beside,i get haven easily in early game so...dont think u'll get paladins
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RectusDominus
Adventuring Hero
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posted August 12, 2006 08:40 AM |
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Dude, sylvan is no match for haven, dougals marksmen + squires wack those elfs easily, haven is probably the best castle allaround and certainly not weak in beginning with marksmen and squires
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted August 12, 2006 09:26 AM |
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Judging from the number of fans of each castle, it seems they are all well-balanced. ;p
Demortae, I have to disagree with you about shadow matriarchs. With a weekly damage of 137, it cannot compare to master hunters (161 if I remember correct) and even blessed marksmen (which naturally will get blessed by inquisitors) and doesn't offer too good initiative (only 10). It's the lowest damage/week rating from all level6 (except treants, which aren't meant to do damage). About the spells.. Confusion is terrible, because it's cast on pre-basic level, meaning it does nothing, vulnerability.. well, I never liked this spell, and slow is a good one, but many enemies have units with cleansing anyway.. And come on, extremally expensive unit (coming from a expensive dwelling and painful to build upgrade) brought to combat just to cast slow once in a round? duh.
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Demortae
Adventuring Hero
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posted August 12, 2006 02:31 PM |
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Edited by Demortae at 14:40, 12 Aug 2006.
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Judging from the number of fans of each castle, it seems they are all well-balanced. ;p
Demortae, I have to disagree with you about shadow matriarchs. With a weekly damage of 137, it cannot compare to master hunters (161 if I remember correct) and even blessed marksmen (which naturally will get blessed by inquisitors) and doesn't offer too good initiative (only 10). It's the lowest damage/week rating from all level6 (except treants, which aren't meant to do damage). About the spells.. Confusion is terrible, because it's cast on pre-basic level, meaning it does nothing, vulnerability.. well, I never liked this spell, and slow is a good one, but many enemies have units with cleansing anyway.. And come on, extremally expensive unit (coming from a expensive dwelling and painful to build upgrade) brought to combat just to cast slow once in a round? duh.
Confusion makes a nice spiffy stack of 2k skellies attack like they were 1k skellies at pre-basic level...not bad in my book. Of course they have the lowest damage for their tier, since the rest of the dungeon lineup is at the top of their tier (or near to it). They are durable casters that can do sufficent damage (for my tastes) when their spells aren't needed.
Also, no, the towns aren't balanced....I think we can all agree the poor wizards got screwed over. Rakshashas and mages are their whole lineup, since titans are pretty much unnatainable, and the rest kinda suck. Of course, their mini-artifacts make them better, but its usually too hard to get the resources to make it truly worthwile, and if your on a rich map, haven is gonna rip you apart  .
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted August 12, 2006 03:22 PM |
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whoops, you're right, forgot about the a bit problematic to play academy. Damn, why did they make a town with such a great music theme so poor? ;/
I'd love to play them, but they lack the specific earlygame advantage inferno gives me.. and the miraculous endgame power with gating.. and deleb owning everything on the map.. etc. Well, infernal creatures look good too, tho 
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted August 12, 2006 03:23 PM |
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Edited by Elvin at 15:26, 12 Aug 2006.
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Confusion affects undead?Hard to believe.And true academy seems lacking.They are more or less forced to take summoning magic for several reasons:High probality to get it first means that in a small map you have to get it just in case you don't get offered another school in next lvl ups.Treasure chests should be used as gold reserves for wizards so other heroes might lvl up faster.Lack of spells then is a disaster.Banish is needed:If someone attacks you early with summon elementals(a certain ring artifact helps) you can't take them out with might nor magic .Not with wizard anyway.Light,let's put it this way:Who wins,a mighty knight with light or a weak wizard with light?Clones and summons seem safer.Destructive is quite good but only for the beginning-nice abilities though.Armies amass and spellpower is not that good.Dark is good too but will you get the spells you want?And while enlightenment helps,in earlygame you'd be better off with other skills.Arcane intuition works only with enemy creatures so you can't learn dark from your genies.With academy's creatures(usually colossi are out of the question too) you desperately need magic and it seems to me that wizards get power a bit too slow
At least they can counter dungeon with many abilities:sap magic,magic mirror,protection,resistance,counterspell.Many skills protect them from magic.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted August 12, 2006 09:34 PM |
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galib owns dungeon. 
and true, confusion doesn't affect undead.
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ismail222
Known Hero
The Cataclysm
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posted August 12, 2006 10:41 PM |
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elves no match for haven unicorn hero owns haven easily...unicorns r easy to get,unicorns + master hunters is very good comobo with that hero when u have really strong unicorn and sylvan gets luck alot too
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RectusDominus
Adventuring Hero
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posted August 13, 2006 09:19 AM |
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uhmm.. no, elves dont grow enuf, by the time u got 40 elves or so haven can have like 320 marksmen, and with squires blocking them I dont see how u want to kill them with unis or elves
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Demortae
Adventuring Hero
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posted August 13, 2006 03:19 PM |
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You are right, my example on the confusion spell wouldn't work (moment of idiocy, pardon me). The idea holds true though, just not with creatures that are immune. A good time for it, is if your minotaurs are about to attack and their target can retaliate. That way only half the stack retaliates before the minos take swing number two. Of course, you'll have to weigh advantages between the spells they can cast or just an attack.Usually its the slow spell or attack, but don't forget their other spells, they can be very useful, particularly if its a small stack and their attacking would be about pointless.
In the haven/sylvan squareoff, you all are missing some integral elements of this battle. The elves are likely to attack 2 times before the archers can attack, the sylven hero is likely to get a spell in as well. If the ranger can make the battle last awhile, haven will lose it to the sylvan initiative. Haven still has the advantage (especially if you take into account the griffins they'll have) but it isn't impossible for the ranger to win that one.
I don't really think haven's racial is overly unbalancing (only a little unbalancing) until there is enough money in play to bring peasants up to tier 5 or 6 en masse, then they have no competition. I think they should definately make some limits on it.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted August 13, 2006 04:47 PM |
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there is a limit already: you can't do it. Moreover, you can't even train all the peasants or EVEN recruit a full weekly population without a goldmine or two.. and to fully utilise training, you'd have to have 4 goldmines, and 2 captured dragon utopias, or smth like that. o_O
The only way is to completely skip angels (not mentioning the archangels) and train peasants instead.
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RectusDominus
Adventuring Hero
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posted August 13, 2006 07:48 PM |
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dude read my topic, training has huge advantages especially combined with dougal, training peasents doesnt costs much , and I never go for lvl 7 creatues, way too expensive
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted August 13, 2006 08:16 PM |
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Edited by Maurice at 20:19, 13 Aug 2006.
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dude read my topic, training has huge advantages especially combined with dougal, training peasents doesnt costs much , and I never go for lvl 7 creatues, way too expensive
You can only train up to tier 6, but that as an aside ...
Peasants have a base weekly growth of +22, which can be turned to +27 with an extra building. Add another +22 for the Castle to get +49 Peasants per week. Total sum needed to buy them all is 980 Gold. The cost to upgrade them all to Archers varies between 3675 and 7350 Gold (depending on whether or not your Hero has the Training skill at a certain level and whether the special Training building has been built). Then you will need to spend an additional 1470 Gold to upgrade them all to Marksmen. So the total sum varies between 6125 Gold to 9800 Gold, just to buy and upgrade your 49 Peasants per week into Marksmen. If you have just one town and few mines (as is the case for a normal game start), that's quite a lot of money.
Although, if you have a Castle and the Training Grounds and all, you're already several weeks into the game ...
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RectusDominus
Adventuring Hero
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posted August 14, 2006 09:06 AM |
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dude, calculate all u want, I won like 20 games in a row with dougal/marksmen thingy untill I got bored of it
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RectusDominus
Adventuring Hero
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posted August 14, 2006 09:10 AM |
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lol I gotta stop preaching haven before I get hatemail
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Demortae
Adventuring Hero
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posted August 14, 2006 03:09 PM |
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there is a limit already: you can't do it. Moreover, you can't even train all the peasants or EVEN recruit a full weekly population without a goldmine or two.. and to fully utilise training, you'd have to have 4 goldmines, and 2 captured dragon utopias, or smth like that. o_O
The only way is to completely skip angels (not mentioning the archangels) and train peasants instead.
That isn't much of a limit, since it depends on map, and length of the scenerio. Yes to play the strategy, you'll usually skip the angels. Don't forget though that there are alot of other income sources (town special, estates, peasants (double with ellaine), artifact, marketplace, etc.), The idea is to make by while spending a bare minimum, saving for when you spot your enemy, then spend your amassed fortune and decimate him. It works, trust me. If you can clear terrain and advance your hero, without recruiting everything in town. I use Ellaine as castle sitter (obviously), and vittorio as main hero, since his ballista will make clearing easier.
Granted, this isn't possible in your traditional quick multiplayer game, but if you do this, you have the additional defense of being able to train them to archers incase of emergency. In a long game with a healthy dose of riches, haven is 100% unbeatable by any other faction. In a short game Dougal/marksmen make haven likely to win, but it can be defeated, mostly because marksmen's intitiative is horrible.
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted August 14, 2006 10:52 PM |
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dude, calculate all u want, I won like 20 games in a row with dougal/marksmen thingy untill I got bored of it
I'm sure you have; in my message I never stated you couldn't do it. I merely calculated the cost to do so .
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DragonLord3000
Known Hero
Romanian flamethrower
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posted September 22, 2006 07:19 PM |
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Dungeon is not overpowered,they have great advantages,that may surpass other castle advantages!Fighting against haven:If you are facing Klaus and there is no obstacle to guard your riders from paladins,yes,indeed they will get killed in one blow.Thow that leaves them stuck near your other units...his griffins might have used battle dive ability to go for matriarchs,but now your blood furies are next.Strike the paladins,kill about 2 if your lucky,black dragon should go for squire and marksmen if they are close by.Get the matriarchs out of there if he has many griffins,or shoot his Archangels,wait with minotaur guards,strike paladins with hydras,poison Archangel with assasin.These were results in one of my battles against klaus!Dungeon creatures seem so much cooperative than many other units of other castles,except sylvan and haven.
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hot peppers are an ilusion.they do not exist.
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