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| Thread: religious tolerance | |
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Gerdash
Responsible
Famous Hero
from the Animated Peace
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posted September 26, 2001 09:46 PM |
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religious tolerance
a leader of some (non-extremistic) christians has said:
brainwash with the right purpose is positive and justified.
i don't think i am too much mistaken when i say that satanism is about less restricting and less artificial rules than christianism (and also about action and achievement, rather than the mindlessness of the necropolis).
imho christianism on the other hand is about conflict between wrong and right, artificially difefrenciating between neutral things like light and darkness, and also about making other people join them in their moralistic beliefs.
now, it seems that nwc is saying:
choose christianism and you choose life,
choose satanism and you choose death.
christians have always had problems understanding other ways of thinking as far as i have seen, and i am not surprised, because they seem to demand that the "right" moralistic rules should be considered superior to anything else. although i may sound aggressive towards christians in this post, i really think that it is nice to have some rules in the society.
we have the creatures that enforce christian rules, i.e. the angel, and especially the crusader in the human town. what's there about life vs death about those rules? i would rather say order vs chaos. if the inferno was in chaos and humans were in order (well, they have always liked to go on missionaries and recruit ppl with different beliefs), and the necro was in death, imho no one would have much reason to complain, because, as far as it seems to me, everybody would be in it's right place.
unfortunately, rearranging everything in the game is unlikely to happen.. but the way the towns are arranged atm does seem to follow only the way some more aggressive christians would like to see things in their fantasies.
the only reason for inferno to be in necro that i can see is that the inferno died in homm3 (oh, well, the right ppl have got to win, so kill the different), and necro might have animated them. so i guess i would rather have a bone devil instead of the present one (i would prefer grim reaper anytime, though). actually, i think the present situation accounts for removal of the devil from the game, but the way it is arranged now seems to be a rape.
or maybe the creature dwellings could be arranged so that you could play either as a full necro or as a full inferno without necromancy, at least not the way the necro has it.
seems that the one-sided view of life vs death may be unavoidable in any case now, but mixing necro and inferno sounds most disappointing, and maybe even lame imho.
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Preserver
Promising
Famous Hero
Elemental Druid
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posted September 26, 2001 10:27 PM |
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Hmmm...
I think you got a point there. But many alignments are unrealistic too. Necropolis got the devils because the black cards in MtG have both undead and demons. At first I would say the opposite of nature is order. Death, as a word, is a part of nature and no counterpart. But I think "Death" has to be understanden as somekind of "Now we are going to spread death and darkness over the world", and that's the opposite of nature... And life...
But ofcourse the placing of religious creatures is far too cristian, with angels reprecenting life and devils death. Angels represent death (in heaven) and devils death (in hell). And to turn it around, for satanics, the devil just represents another way of LIFE, than the cristians want. So to solve your problem: Remove both Devil and Angel from the game... (Or move devil to Asylum and angel to Academy)
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- The only alert the invaders had was the rustling of leaves on a day without wind -
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Gerdash
Responsible
Famous Hero
from the Animated Peace
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posted September 26, 2001 10:45 PM |
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yeah, that was my first thought:
move humans and angel (and especially the crusader) to the order.
move devil to the asylum (asylum looks exactly like some medieval paintings of hell).
unfortulately, there are nice creatures in asylum on level 3 and 4 that cannot be moved lower (imho those are the lev 2 creatures that are not very interesting), so there doesn't seem to be room for devil there. and the craftmanship of dwarves goes well with the order.. but the humans seem to treasure order above anything else, and the crusader.. well.. whatever. and as far as i know, the chaos spells are damage spells like fireball, asd might suit inferno quite well.
somehow i wouldn't mind if devil was removed and we would go back to homm2, rather than the devil and the undead put together in the same bunch in the death town. or maybe they might be put together, but in a bit different way based on a bit different reasoning.
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Shadow_Phoenix
Known Hero
Shadow Ruler
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posted September 28, 2001 11:44 PM |
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For me the alignments should be:
Death
Life
Order
Chaos
Nature, and I don't think nature has a oposite because nature represents neutrality.
Thge tough thing is separate life and order, has you said in our usual christian way it is much the same.
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Saruman
Famous Hero
On academic leave
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posted September 28, 2001 11:55 PM |
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Uhhh... Shadow_Pheonix, those are already the alignments (Except you're missing the Stronghold's alignment: Might).
I don't realy care about relgion, and assure you that if I ever play Haven (I don't intend to, but in some of the campaigns I'm sure I won't have a choice  ), or place a Haven down on a map, in the Map Editor I'll make sure the Portal of Glory (Or wherever it is you recruit Archangels) diabled, and in the town, I'll build the Crusader's dwelling.
NOTE: I think it's stupid that there is just the archangel, and not the normal angel. Also, the angels where pictured wrong in HOMM 3: They are supposed to be males people!!! Can't NWC listen to the bible and make them look like men like they are supposed to be (Unlike the stupid artists that did the paintings/drawings of angels)?!?
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Thank god I'm an atheist.
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Preserver
Promising
Famous Hero
Elemental Druid
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posted September 29, 2001 12:41 PM |
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Quote:
Nature, and I don't think nature has a oposite because nature represents neutrality.
Thge tough thing is separate life and order, has you said in our usual christian way it is much the same.
Every alignment has two opposite:
Order: Nature & Chaos
Life: Chaos & Death
Nature: Death & Order
Chaos: Order & Life
Death: Life & Nature
But yes, nature should be neutral...
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- The only alert the invaders had was the rustling of leaves on a day without wind -
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Gerdash
Responsible
Famous Hero
from the Animated Peace
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posted September 29, 2001 01:37 PM |
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imho all the alignments are neutral, i.e. heaven that is fighting for their way of life is as good as necro or asylum or preserve or stronghold fighting for their way of life. they may be evil from the point of view of some other towns, but from a neutral point of view they should be neutral. even the weeds in a garden are not evil, they just grow there and are completely neutral. but from the point of view of the gardener they are the prime evil.
according to the preserver's interpretation of opposition, maybe the humans should really be opposed to chaos and death, but on the other hand, they still like order asap imho, and recruiting followers should fit them best. i even feel that players who like order would probably pick heaven creatures over the fantasy creatures of the other towns.
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what is the safest way to pass your time? heroes community -- your posts won't affect almost anything
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Preserver
Promising
Famous Hero
Elemental Druid
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posted September 29, 2001 08:08 PM |
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Actually 3do didn't make the alignments and oppositions. They took it from the 'Magic: The Gathering' card game...
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- The only alert the invaders had was the rustling of leaves on a day without wind -
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Shadow_Phoenix
Known Hero
Shadow Ruler
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posted September 29, 2001 11:43 PM |
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I always disagree with nature not being a neutral alignment (no oposite I mean), it should be more like D&D where it represents neutrality.
But NWC should be more creative, heroes 4 uses ideas of several other games.
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yasmiel
Supreme Hero
Former Chessmaster
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posted April 03, 2003 12:09 AM |
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Archangels are stronger version of angels?
In angel hiearchy (according to christian religion)archangels are amongst the weakest, but most of the people today means that ARCH strictly means something higher and better. It is that way often but as I said not ALWAYS which is true in the case of archangels. (I know that they only apeared in Heroes 3)but while we speak about religion....
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Magus
Hired Hero
Warper of Time-Space
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posted April 07, 2003 02:10 AM |
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Archangels are the second weakest form of angel, but plain angels are the weakest.
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So was the land riven by Chaos and Destruction, and so it was cleansed from existence. I did this, the Magus of Ly'kail, Magus of the Sylvan Kingdoms.
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Celfious
Promising
Legendary Hero
From earth
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posted April 07, 2003 02:27 AM |
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Quote:
Nature, and I don't think nature has a oposite because nature represents neutrality.
Okay.. so let's knock on wood.. "knock knock"
What you heard, is part of a physical reality. Earth, or physical plane if you wish..
There is by far something much opposite from nature
At the same time, they corelate with eatchother.
It's more so a spiritual plane. If thy wish, mentality itself can be opposing/corealated with nature. Thoughts, feelings, emotions, and the essence of being is infact intertwined with nature, just as life with death.
The intertwine between nature & spirit is a balance between 2 seperate things, which together are something
Take life and death-together are twined as black and white. Each seperate, yet part of the same reality.
Chaos and order-The balance of the way, in which all living things think, act, and live.
Nature and spirit-Naturaly these 2 things, are the GREATEST balance, for w/out these powerful things, no life, order, chaos, death, OR might would exist. Without both sides of existance, there is no existance.
**note to the thinker who understands this concept**
{Funny, wouldn't it not make sence at all, if with spirit, and nature, there was no might, life death, chaos and order?? lol
That brings us to an overwhelming picture of a meaningless & unactive earth}
Quote:
the tough thing is to seperate order w/life?
And order.. Order alignment w/in earth is purely the order of nature itself. Why, the evil sorcerous should've been the first clue! Order dosn't mean justice, and nice good things.. It is structuring life into the ultimate order.
"This way-this way! To a natural perfection"
Chaos, is achieving great power w/turning all that is into the most natrual nothingness-ASH. Why, even decay to ash.
Chaos, wants even its followers destruction, but the "order" for chaos to naturaly work, is to use it's minions as pawns to dominate earth with fire.
Think of order, more as man working with man to create the most high technologies, and using an order mind set, to break every boundry this earth has beset to him.
Think of chaos, as using the dregs, beasts, and outcasts of society to hate, and bestill destruction to all that is. Chaos aligned scientists and such could create disease, or weapons of mass destruction.
Oh yes, pure truth is, I'm not bashing you or your ideas. I'm just trying to enlighten the curse of simple mindedness I've seen for so long (as this is aswell the first time I took a real look at HOMM word, as reality-myself)
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Gerdash
Responsible
Famous Hero
from the Animated Peace
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posted April 07, 2003 01:54 PM |
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wow, celfious, i have been tinking about similar things, and i had an idea, so i might as well say it out:
what if the world of homm represents the mind of a person and the races represnt different ways of thinking? so it would be like some ideals fighting to become the first priority in a person's mind.
the world is like you described, but the person doesn't see it in it's harmony, based on his goals and ideals that have the highest priority in his mind.
what do you think, how many people that you know base their actions on the understanding of world harmony? most people i know (including myself, probably most of the time) base their actions on something else.
also, it seems to me that many mythological creatures might be symbols of something in a person's mind.
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well, this was the best i could come up with. it might get somewhat confusing, though. do you like this way of looking at homm, or maybe we should be less worrid about making all ends meet and just be worried about the playability of the game? or maybe we could end up with well-reasoned creature lineups that way?
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Celfious
Promising
Legendary Hero
From earth
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posted April 07, 2003 02:44 PM |
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I wish life were as easy as homm. against AI of course lol..
If Homm4 was more of a mental structure, which alignment would be the best for ones mind?
And would there be anything after the game?
If so, what would it be?
Grr! I wish Matrix was an alignment. lmao
Moderator's note:This topic has been closed, as it refers to an older version of the game. To discuss Heroes 3, please go to Library Of Enlightenment, to discuss Heroes 4, please go to War Room Of Axeoth, to discuss Heroes 5, go to Temple Of Ashan.
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