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| Thread: Choosing towns is a MUST based on map! |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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Jinxer
Legendary Hero
*****
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posted October 11, 2006 04:37 PM |
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Choosing towns is a MUST based on map!
Well the more I play this game the more I realize that UBI didnt consider Multiplayer at all or player made maps when they balanced the towns.
Previously I found out that Inferno is super weak so I vowed to never play it. Little did I know that PART of the reason I witnessed them being so weak is that during the game I played with them I didnt know the importance of the IMPS. So I lost them all breaking thru Devils. Soon after I had 60 Vamp Lords join my army so felt confident that the void had been filled. Well I soon found out that Infernos ONLY chance of winning at ANY game is based on the IMPs shoulders alone. Without Imps Inferno cannot win. Thats all the town is. "Imps" And further more if you are playing on a CLOSED map that makes for a long game and there are level creature dwellings on map allowing a player to easily acheive 650 Imps THEN... Inferno becomes a force...because your Hero with 20+ spell power enters battle with Zero mana. Guess what that equals! ---- 15+ hours wasted because someone clicked purchase imps.
So everyone says each game is a learning experience...and yes I did learn. Open or faster style map = Inferno cant win. Closed or slower style map = Inferno almost cant be beat.... unless you got Strickly MIGHT hero. Even then you need some basic magic to compete. So for future games to avoid hours and hours of a good hard fought game being lost to UBIs inability to make towns balanced no matter what the map... Myself and my opponents town picks will have to be agreed upon based on the style of map. This crap excuse of " Guess you shoulda attacked me sooner " as a defence on a map with 60 + Arch Devils is just retarded. And to prove my point that Inferno is ONLY Imps...without them, my opponents vastly bigger army woulda stood zero chance. Just like I did when my magic was taken away.
Just trying to point out that each town having a unique advantage is kewl, but that advantage shouldnt beable to erase the other guys unique advantage. Dungeon without Magic = almost to weak to win unless certain situations. Inferno without Imps = to weak to win also.
Ofcourse I know I will get flamed for this...but venting never hurt anyone. Just sick of playing hours and hours and not losing to my opponents abilities. And that is not a bash to any of my opponents abilities. The player who beat me, is probably more skilled over all then me... but that particular game skill played ZERO part in. Game was over once Imps stole all my mana leaving me at Zero.
Miss the good old days of creatures fighting it out etc. Not crazy abilities deciding game. Abilities are kewl, they should sway and contribute to the battle NOT decide them.
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fraudatio
Famous Hero
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posted October 11, 2006 05:57 PM |
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I have to agree with parts of what you`re saying here jinxer. I have the same feeling everytime I lose to a Ballista specialist on a map that is open enough that they can get you within 2 weeks. I can THINK of ways to counter it, but that is only Deflect missile basicly, and in most occations you don`t get that and light magic during your first 13-14 levels, if not Haven. On bigger maps you can obviously counter it with destructive spells aswell, but then you need to build a heroe past lvl 15 i guess.
However - some races fits better to eachother I guess. As Necro I love to play against Inferno, even though I tend to lose my mana at the start, a mark of the necromancer can make up for that. Then inferno has consume corpse, and Academy consume artifact (not sure how effective it is though). I am not sure how Dungeon should counter the Imps though.
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insatiable
Supreme Hero
Ultimate N00bidity
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posted October 11, 2006 11:20 PM |
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kill imps, surrender and attack again
i agree with ya yes, imps should steal much less mana
however,,,,,,,
aint life a snow ah 
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mklthrkngl
Known Hero
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posted October 12, 2006 05:20 AM |
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ok, will try
since yer expecting to get flamed for what you posted Jinxer ole buddy, i'll do my best, here goes FFFLLAAAAMMMMEEE!!! and so more flames, flames from hell and nuclear flames, flaming emotions and flaming flamers!!!!, flame flame flamer!!!. and if ya didn't get it the first time flameeee!!!! and add to that some more flames even!! woooo almost flamed out. hope ya feel completly flamed now. wouldn't want to disapoint ya and not get no good flaming and all eh ? 
ps i also flame for parties as well, i'm here till thursday, so try the veal
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OK!! So i cann't spell well! So shoot me!!
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jb239
Famous Hero
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posted October 12, 2006 08:11 AM |
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I don't play multiplayer, so I can't really argue with you about it
But I remember people used to say the same thing about different towns in Heroes 3.. Nothing can be totally balanced without it being the same, but when you say imps are too strong.. never thought Id hear that haha
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I will not lose.
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Arangar
Famous Hero
Weak ranger - lost viking
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posted October 12, 2006 12:55 PM |
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Quote:
Miss the good old days of creatures fighting it out etc.
Wouldn't losing all your mana turn the battle into a creature vs creature fight? (instead of the usual emp. meteor shower thingie) 
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Arangar
Norwegian viking
ranger of the north
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Jinxer
Legendary Hero
*****
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posted October 12, 2006 02:43 PM |
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Good support post Aranger......
Anyways...indeed you are correct. Some of the empowered spells are also a bit to powerful.. But being able to cast ZERO spells during battle not even haste or slow etc is a bit silly. My point to that statement was the battles in H3 were full of strategy and thinking and planning your next several moves, clicking the wait button to earn a hard fought win...you actually felt like you EARNED the win. Not just " Oh yea I am Greatest player eva! I clicked purchase imps...now you have zero mana. If there was a spell that could be cast that erased all mana of opponent, everyone would think that was silly.. This is even sillier since it cost no mana to cast and it gets to go first in battle. Wheres the strategy? Battle is over the moment it starts. Unless you have a Mega Might hero that wasnt depending on magic....and even then winning a fight without casting a single spell is still quite a task. Especially if your dungeon.
Bottom line until UBI fixes the Imps, I wont be playing with or against Inferno...
ps. Thanks for the Flame Party MKL, and yes I would like to try the veal.
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Aculias
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Pretty Boy Angel Sacraficer
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posted October 12, 2006 02:53 PM |
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Edited by Aculias at 14:54, 12 Oct 2006.
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To this day I would of never imagined that a player would complain about Imps being over infinite powered beings.
Mike can you deliver me some of that Canadian beer.
I wouldnt mind giving the American water a break for a change.?.
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Dreaming of a Better World
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bjorn190
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Jebus maker
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posted October 12, 2006 02:56 PM |
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Im pretty sure haven is a good pick vs inferno then, cause haven dont need no stinkin mana lol 
Dungeon is like paper to the scissors of inferno.
Sure, its a whacked out game, and could do well being more balanced (as in less racial differences).
In h3 the creatures were approximately equal, so were the spells. In h5, the creatures are more different, and the spells are kinda not equal either, so there is no mathematical balance.
But h5 is a sucky game anyway, due to various reasonss
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Aculias
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Pretty Boy Angel Sacraficer
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posted October 12, 2006 02:58 PM |
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That just reminds me a Q I just asked Jinxer not one minute before you made this reply Bjorn.
Sometimes Inquiring minds do think alike my red headed friend
Manuel says:
Want to play Haven vs Inferno?
Jinxer says:
Are you a funny guy
Manuel says:
depending on how serious you are when you ask that lol
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Dreaming of a Better World
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Arangar
Famous Hero
Weak ranger - lost viking
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posted October 12, 2006 03:05 PM |
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Well, since the thieves' guild is so badly thought out in h5 that you can actually see stats, heroes, units and town etc. from day 1.. you could start planning a tiny bit earlier.
Examples: Get the skills that give you free cost spells like haste/teleport/endurance.. use the artifact merchant to get extra knowledge items. Get the +spellpoint skills etc.
Sometimes you have to pick another combination than the normal one. Wow, a game that forces you to adapt and change your strategy depending on what you are facing... horrible!!
I do agree with some of your points however. The mana points stolen should have a percentage cap or something.
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Arangar
Norwegian viking
ranger of the north
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Betruger
Known Hero
empowered mind
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posted October 12, 2006 03:40 PM |
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Quote:
This crap excuse of " Guess you shoulda attacked me sooner " as a defence on a map with 60 + Arch Devils is just retarded. And to prove my point that Inferno is ONLY Imps...without them, my opponents vastly bigger army woulda stood zero chance. Just like I did when my magic was taken away.
Ok I have to disagree here. This game we played when I got 640 imps was lasting way too long. It was the middle of week 8 of the game when you finally broke out! I mean - damn! week 8! Come on. In my last game as a dungeon on the very same map (BfH), I broke out in the begining of week 5. Dungeon really has it easy, pack of deep hydras + horde of furies + meteor / implosion is all you need to beat those 50 devils.
And it'd be possible to break even sooner if one has got logisctics.
When you sit there and let the opponent accumulate imps and letting him take all the artifacts and stat boosters from the middle, thats just bad strategy.
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Jinxer
Legendary Hero
*****
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posted October 12, 2006 04:03 PM |
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The middle artifacts and stat builders you got made ZERO difference in that game. The only thing that mattered was the imps. You your self said you just sat back and waited till you had enough imps to cover my mana... Cant fault you for exploiting a weakness and imbalance in the game.
And sure I could have attempted to rush to the middle. And I am sure I coulda made it into middle...but week 5 means I get past the devils but with some noticable casualties. Even my empowered meteor (no implo is either guild) did 900 damage. That kills 4 Arch Devils per hit. And when there are 2 stacks of 30 Arch Devils that isnt a fre pass. So I could have lost units gotten to middle ran slowly accross middle to other stack of devils then fought them and lost even more units then ran to your town to attack you..... Total time for that trip even with Expert Logistics = 10 Days (just guessing) and thats assuming I dont summon any of my creatures. So arrive at your town with half my possible army vs your full army. How is that any better??
--- Not to mention since there are no wells on other side of Devil Guards, I could have made the trip and as I came thru 2nd Devils and ended turn with no mana or really low mana...you could just be waiting there to kill me anyways.. So even assuming I got 1/2 my mana left after beating Devils... you got 350 Imps ( Instead of 655 ) and steal 87 mana ( Max mana = 165 ) I still enter battle with Zero mana only now half possible army.... Please explain how this helps me? ----
Please note my post means no disrespect to you Betruger or our game... I enjoyed it ( up until the final slaughter This post and my statements are addressed solely at discussing and debating the obvious problem of imbalance with IMPS stealing to much mana etc.
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Maximus
Famous Hero
Bronzed God
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posted October 12, 2006 05:08 PM |
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go imps !
map was bfh, this is battle for honor ported to h5 ? sad to see a classic open map ported into a closed map if it is 
im about to re-try h5 again and these threads are really good, is nice to see ppl discussing these balance issues, i'd like to find out all the gay stuff asap b4 i get raped online.
cya soon
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Betruger
Known Hero
empowered mind
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posted October 12, 2006 07:21 PM |
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Edited by Betruger at 19:22, 12 Oct 2006.
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Quote:
Even my empowered meteor (no implo is either guild) did 900 damage. That kills 4 Arch Devils per hit. And when there are 2 stacks of 30 Arch Devils that isnt a fre pass. So I could have lost units gotten to middle ran slowly accross middle to other stack of devils then fought them and lost even more units then ran to your town to attack you..... Total time for that trip even with Expert Logistics = 10 Days (just guessing) and thats assuming I dont summon any of my creatures. So arrive at your town with half my possible army vs your full army. How is that any better??
Meteor is much better than implo in that case. Here's how you kill 50 devils (in week 5 there will be less amount of them than week 8):
You need to have an army of:
-all your deep hydras (probably about 25)
-all your furies (probably about 60-70, doesn't matter)
You should place all but 5 furies in the corner, and all hydras right next to them, covering those furies. Split the rest of the furies in 5 stacks of 1 each.
If you enter the combat with such weak army, the devils should be splitted to 4 stacks (the weaker your army, the more stacks there are), so your 900dmg emp. meteor will kill 12 archdevils (you'll target 3 stacks, killing 4 per stack).
Great. 38 to go.
Archdevils have speed of 7 so they can't reach your hydras in first turn, so you just wait until they all make their moves.
Then, use your 5 single furies as a living shield to prevent devils from attacking hydras and cast another emp. meteor shower, killing another 12 devils (or 16 if you are lucky).
In the meantime you'll also get to act about 3-4 times with your big stack of furies killing another, oh I dunno, let's say 6 devils.
20 devils to go.
At this point you can't prevent them from attacking hydras, but they cannot attack all at the same time, because they are large. So make sure you weaken with your fuires the stacks that will attack first.
All in all using this simple tactic you easily decimate those devils loosing 5 furies and 10 hydras tops. Usually you won't loose that much hydras though.
Quote:
--- Not to mention since there are no wells on other side of Devil Guards, I could have made the trip and as I came thru 2nd Devils and ended turn with no mana or really low mana...you could just be waiting there to kill me anyways..
There is a mana well in the middle of the map. And you should always send a scout before your main hero in such situations as you described, to avoid bumping into enemy while having no mana.
Quote:
Please note my post means no disrespect to you Betruger or our game... I enjoyed it ( up until the final slaughter This post and my statements are addressed solely at discussing and debating the obvious problem of imbalance with IMPS stealing to much mana etc.
I understand, no worries I'm not attacking you in this post either.
If you make imps steal less mana, they will become useless on maps with just 1 town and/or no external imp dwellings.
I just think that what you say is not the whole picture.
Remember that according to what you said, you played poorly this game, loosing a lot of furies to neutrals etc. I got better stats, thanks to:
2 additional level-ups
artifact +2 to every stat from the middle,
and a bunch of stat boosters from there too.
And yet, even without all your mana, you managed to kill huge number of my troops (my stack of 19 devils didn't even get a chance to act).
Leaving me with only imps, demons, and succubbi.
If you were able to cast spells I wouldn't stand a chance, and that would be poor balance.
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Jinxer
Legendary Hero
*****
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posted October 12, 2006 08:03 PM |
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Edited by Jinxer at 20:10, 12 Oct 2006.
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And yet, even without all your mana, you managed to kill huge number of my troops (my stack of 19 devils didn't even get a chance to act).
Leaving me with only imps, demons, and succubbi.
If you were able to cast spells I wouldn't stand a chance, and that would be poor balance.
You hit the nail on the head!!!! UBI took the wrong approach in how they decided to balance Infernos weakness. There approach ends up being feast or famine. Make the Imps take only 15% mana and make inferno slightly stronger attack/defense wise...
And as for well in middle. That does me NO good after I break thru 2nd set of devils and even if I had a scout that could travel as fast as me and was sitting right next to me. I could still be sitting duck depending on where my movement ends etc. Sure there is always the chance that I would get lucky and you are on opposiste side of map and I could make it to a well before you get to me lalalala ANYTHING is possible, but not sure I can base my entire game strategy on that prayer. No matter how you look at it. The circumstances of that game Dungeon vs. Inferno left me with little options to affect outcome. And regardless if I lost some blood furies early in game again wouldnt have helped in battle...ONLY if I was lucky to guess exactly where your imps would be placed and I matched it...and even then not sure bloods could make it to back row in 1 move without speed artifact....which was no where around, not in artiafact merchants etc or in my area.
Other town match ups the imps might not have such a devistating decisive effect...either that or any time you play inferno just choose a might hero. OR only play against them on an open faster style map.
At any rate -- was a learning experience. Heroes 3 took several patches to get it balanced well...so just hope there are more patches to come.
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bjorn190
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Jebus maker
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posted October 12, 2006 08:13 PM |
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Back in h3 devs actually cared about the games. Now the devs are long gone, replaced by employees who imitate things from the past, creating shadows of what once was.
In other words - a gaming revolution is needed, to abolish the mimicing of what worked in the past and replace it with new ideas. Sadly, humanity never gives up an erronous concept without some sort of showdown, so lets put our hopes and prayers into some new gaming companies showing up soon.
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the_teacher
Supreme Hero
Talk to the hand!
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posted October 13, 2006 03:56 PM |
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there are too many lines to quote so i will try to be more at the point, thats being only my point of view.
1. U SHOULD ADAPT to the race u got , considering the opponent's one aswell (it happens if u try full random, the imbalanced thives guild can help u with that starting day 1, otherwise with premade choices over town/hero will assume that u have some sort of strategy already built for a specific map). so if u cannot adapt >>> u need to improve your skill, this game is NOT a poetry to learn it by heart, a collection of 6 poesis to be more specific, one for each class.
u have many OPTION to approach a game development . ex. dungeon vs inferno (which was the main subject of complaining) "sacrifice" 3 skills, otherwise useful , to get extra spell points. which can help u to survive till u "rebalance" the "imbalance" caused by super imps.
with >300 sp i dont see any issue. and this amount of mana can be easily reached when u talking about 19devils in your army. this for caster, the melee ones dont need too much mana and they mostly rely on free cost spells.
2. i must agree that , depending on map, some race has a slight advantage over other, but still u can tweak your hero, save the creatures, for maximizing the performance when fighting your opponent, NOT the neutrals, neutrals can be avoided somehow, enemy NOT.
3. imho , its too early to say that , on any kind of circumstances, a race is always inferior to other, untill u didnt EXPERIMENT all the possible development. im adventuring a bit too far for some, but i might say imbalance comes from players' skill with a bit of luck, which of course has its part in game (ex. some population doubles at the right moment for some, plague in the worst moment for the other, artix, etc...)
every game i start i try a different development than the previous one (considering same race) not matter how "wild" it is it could give u some unexpected (good) result. just try. this is one of the explanation(excuses) for my loss so far . but i like to experiment. the better u know your enemy, his posibilities, more prepared u are.
4. game is good and entertaining.i really enjoy it, is not by far as flat as h3 was (crack hack with implosion, dimension door, town portal , come on!!!), but this is the opionion of a h4-er most
likely
5. for those who trying to make maps, (as i do right now), is very important to KNOW the game in order to create a playable map, pretty balance, so go deeper a bit, before making statements.
6. good luck and be ready
have a nice day
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insatiable
Supreme Hero
Ultimate N00bidity
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posted October 13, 2006 05:27 PM |
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some naughty pic for a break!
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jb239
Famous Hero
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posted October 13, 2006 06:09 PM |
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Quote:
go imps !
map was bfh, this is battle for honor ported to h5 ? sad to see a classic open map ported into a closed map if it is
im about to re-try h5 again and these threads are really good, is nice to see ppl discussing these balance issues, i'd like to find out all the gay stuff asap b4 i get raped online.
cya soon
Haha actually it has nothing to do with the original Battle for Honor except the name really When I first started making it I thought I might remake the old one, but then didn't and just kept the name.
But after reading through this thread, it gives me an idea or 2 for an update to the Battle for Honor map.
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I will not lose.
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