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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted January 02, 2007 07:58 PM |
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Am working on it - also will come with some feedback to your post.
Must ... get ... som... something ... to ... eat ...
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baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
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posted January 02, 2007 11:01 PM |
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Edited by baklava at 23:19, 02 Jan 2007.
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Quote:
i suggest that gnomes are cruel to animals, particularly farm animals. so for level3, instead of a stone thrower, have a pig with rockets on its back. it would make the faction have a feel that people want to play as, animal sadists.
I don't really think heroes V is the game for animal sadists... As a hippie myself I won't let gnomes be cruel to animals. Period.
Actionjack, will you marry me?
However I disagree about some stuff (nothing big of course):
Gnomes aren't typical magic users so arcanemists make little sense. I'm more for the scientist idea.
Gnome heroes are engineers, the lvl2 unit should be called technician-mechanic.
And I'm against clockwork giants. Sounds like a copy of academy's colossi. I prefer drake/dragon golems, but they're not so great either... I suggest a vote on this one...
Updated the master post accordingly... Didn't have time to do a spell check and a few other things though, but it will be done in time...
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted January 03, 2007 12:12 AM |
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ActionJack, I would like to give you some feedback to your post!
First off: Let me say: It is very impressive! I don't agree on all of it, but it's extremely well thought out, it's overall coherent, it's innovative, and it would probably work. As I see it, you deserve a QP for that post.
Secondly: My objections! Let it be said: I have only a few factual reasons to disagree with what you have made, so most of my objections will be purely subjective.
- It's too futuristic for my taste! I emphasize the "for my taste" part, but for me, concepts like Battle Droids, Electro Batteries, and Rocket Darts are too futuristic to me. It's not as bad as a certain town we've seen around, but it's still too much for me. To be fair, several of the concepts of the Master Post is beyond this limit for me - the Dragon Golem is right on the verge, and the Clockwork Beetles and Steel Tank is deffinitely more that I favor.
- While I appreciate the idea of Blue Prints, and think the concept is very well conceived, I think it's going to be a major problem for this faction: The line-up is extremly week in the creeping units - the level 1 and 2 units are both very defensive, and the level 3 shooter is probably going to be a fairly easy target. This makes for a huge challenge for this faction. Now, with the Class Skill you list, instead of helping out on this problem, I actually think you emphasize it - this might sound counterintuitive, but without completely understanding how these things are developed, I'm afraid this system will make developing the units to their full potential harder than normally - simply because you will have to go through several upgrades that might not all be readily available due to time and/or expenses. Thus, in the early game, the faction will stand even weaker than they might have under "normal" circumstances.
- I would really like to go deeper into the details of the Skills and Abilities of this Blue-print thing to get to understand it fully - but I haven't had time yet.
I have made a suggestion for alternative unit Stats and Abilities. These should be ballanced as I'm best able to (I do, however, think that most of yours look reasonable, without testing them - in fact, our units are almost frightingly similar in some cases). I think a few ideas were inspired by you, while others you have clearly are brilliant and could be caried over - I especially like the cary-unit ability of the Tank that I did not dublicate, but would love to have with this, because I think it sits perfectly well and will be a huge and valuable help for this faction. I think you should have the credit for this, however (I do seem to recall I actually had a similar ability once for a Roc in one of my factions ;o). Anyway, we can combine them later to find the best layout.
I haven't go time to add the info here now, and therefore I will have to wait to comment on why I ballanced some of the units differently than you did til later. I will also have to think in Class Skills and Abilities! The numbers are available here:
Gnome Workshop alternative
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actionjack
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted January 03, 2007 04:29 AM |
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responding to some comment...
Baklava... NO. (I don't know how you do things there, but I think same sex marriage is still illegal in most states here in US)
Eveyone is entitle to disagreement. It is not Perfect, afterall.
For Gnome heroes.. I would like to call them "Arcanmistineers". They are Gnomes afterall, and they often have funny names for things.
Drgaon Gnome or Clock work giant? I would think its a issue of personal prefernce. As said, I like dragons, but don't want to see them all over lv7s, so I go for the giant. (Also Drill Punch sounded cool, and I am a mech lover)
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Glade to hear alcibiade's response, as I am a fan of his work.
Still waiting for your concept, alc.
Whats a QP?
I think it's technology is still in basic steam level, with lots gear and pollies. (I think late 17th centry France period)
Yes, they are suppose to be weaker in early game, and need time to build up. Now, the early level is still not totaly worthless, and could still get by for some part, but this is really a turtle faction.
But in looking at another view.. the early (And almost all) of Gnome's unit could do well in attacking a castle, with climb walls, and seige attack and range shots/throw potions of the Hero, so they could actually do a rush if played right.
Of couse, its all hard to say with out any acutal play test, will leave at that.
Speaking of Roc... I also do have that ablity for it too in an old Orc faction (to better accomndate for the fact they don't have other flyer, and most of them are melee), but that carry is flying. However, cann't say if that was an orignal or inspired idea.. oh well.
Hope to see your creature line up in your nicely layout graphic tables. Enjoy.
PS: I like your Prepare ablilty for Mechanics. (maybe change its name to Wand UP? )
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baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
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posted January 03, 2007 12:38 PM |
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Edited by baklava at 12:43, 03 Jan 2007.
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Quote:
Baklava... NO. (I don't know how you do things there, but I think same sex marriage is still illegal in most states here in US)
Awww... 
Quote:
For Gnome heroes.. I would like to call them "Arcanmistineers". They are Gnomes afterall, and they often have funny names for things.
 Dude we're not calling our heroes arcanmistineers. I mean sheesh...
Quote:
Whats a QP?
Quality point, red star thingy
Quote:
I think it's technology is still in basic steam level, with lots gear and pollies. (I think late 17th centry France period)
Why France and not Italy for example? I think Italy would fit better since Da Vinci was Italian. Not that it matters though 
Quote:
Yes, they are suppose to be weaker in early game, and need time to build up. Now, the early level is still not totaly worthless, and could still get by for some part, but this is really a turtle faction.
 Well the dwarves are already a turtle faction. Better make them a hit&run faction with powerful ranged units...
I read Alc's lineup and I like it, but how about calling the level 7 units automatons/dracomatons (or drake automatons)? I think automatons were mentioned in Greek mythology so you can't say they're too modern 
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Ted
Promising
Supreme Hero
Peanut Exterminator
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posted January 03, 2007 03:07 PM |
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Edited by Ted at 15:07, 03 Jan 2007.
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gnomes are sneaky in my opionion, perhaps they can have an obility to steal money from other players, 10 gold per player, per week?
Basic stealing- 10 gold per player, per week (1.50 gold per day)
Advanced stealing- 15 gold per player, per week (2.15 gold per day)
Expert stealing- 20 gold per player, per week (2.90 gold per day)
Ultimate stealing- 4 gold per player, per day (4 gold per day)
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted January 03, 2007 03:38 PM |
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*lol*
Sorry, but that's the most useless ability ever. With 7 other players, you would get something like 30 Gold extra a day on Ultimate Level.
30 Gold???
And ActionJack, you are very right that your line-up is somewhat akin to France Empirial period 18th or early 19th century (perhaps late 17th century as well). For me, however, that is too late to match the general feel of Heroes 5 - I see the game as taking place in a society that matches Medieval feudal times, and that's the beauty of using the Leonardo da Vinci approach to the technological units - he lived in the 13th century, which was indeed late Medieval times. Thus, a technological faction based on his inventions could very well co-exists with a Haven faction as we know it.
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Ted
Promising
Supreme Hero
Peanut Exterminator
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posted January 03, 2007 05:06 PM |
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Quote:
*lol*
Sorry, but that's the most useless ability ever. With 7 other players, you would get something like 30 Gold extra a day on Ultimate Level.
30 Gold???
that may be true, but i didnt want to give them to much of an advantige over the enemy, perhaps a rethink, and this time i am using taxing (its still evil)
Basic taxing- 750 gold per player, per week (107 gold per day)
Advanced taxing- 1000 gold per player, per week (143 gold per day)
Expert taxing- 1250 gold per player, per week (179 gold per day)
Ultimate taxing- 300 gold per player, per day (300 gold per day)
(a possible 14,700 gold per day! (with 7 players and ultimate ability))
building
extra 10% taxing bonus
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actionjack
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted January 03, 2007 06:56 PM |
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Alc:
I say France, as around that time, the France court have the most luxury to indulge in fancy, yet not very piratical toys like a grand clock or strange automations (At least that is my impression of them.. History is not my strong point) Germany would be another place that have advance automation and machinery technologies.
The Renaissance technology, while more akin to Medieval period, just seem primitive to me (as it does not take in full use of steam and gears), and capture less imagination in their style and design.
But it all comes down to preference (note how I often use “I think…”), and what school of fantasy you like. As many Fantasy games theme have clock work technology cross with medieval magical fantasy (Warhammer, Warcraft, Final Fantasy), so that’s what I like.
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Ted:
Stealing and Taxing seem funny... HOw about Alchemistry?
Baic Alchemistry: Hero Produce ramdonly 3 matieral a week.
Advance Alchemistry: Hero Produce ramdoly 5 matieral a week.
Expert Alchemistry: Hero Produce ramdoly 8 matieral a week.
(number could change)
feel thats more fitting to Gnome and still have similar effect (as you can sell the matieral for gold).
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Geny
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted January 03, 2007 07:17 PM |
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I still think that the Engineer hero should do something with better creatures. Now the thing that came to my mind is an opposite of Ranger's Favored Enemy. Call it... I don't know... Machine Master... (yeah horrible I know). There will be a special building (let's say Workshop) where the hero will be able to choose one of his mechanical units (three is just too much) and this unit will have some kind of a stat bonus.
There is a lot of things that could be done with this skill, but first I want to know what do you think about the concept itself.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted January 03, 2007 09:05 PM |
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ActionJack: It's purely a matter of taste! I just wanted to give you my explanations!
Hope to have stat tables up later.
Btw. we already have an Alchemist (sub)Class 
Alchemist
And Geny, considering that the faction has 5 Mechanical units in it's current form, I actually think it would make good sense to have a skill to master 1 / 2 / 3 (4) of them.
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Geny
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted January 03, 2007 09:20 PM |
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alcibiades: Yeah, at first I thought so too, but then I realized it's Heroes 5 we're talking about, meaning that not all of the units will take active part in the end, so making 3 favorites basically covers your whole line-up (excluding living creatures). That's why I wanted to reduce it. I think 2 is the best option so it probably should be 1 for the skill itself + 1 for one of the abilities. And that way the bonuses can be better and be upgraded at every skill mastery level.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted January 04, 2007 12:26 AM |
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I will try to take a step back here, and make a one by one review of the units in the faction, and also give some more comments on the faction in general, but from a slightly different point of view.
I think one of my main problems with the faction is that I have trouble seings its justification for being in the game. I don't meen that the faction is incoherent - cause it isn't - or isn't well thought out - because it is, at least the general concept - but in terms of what it does for the game, I find it lacking. It doesn't reintroduce any old favorite units to the game, with the exception of the Dragon Golem from Heroes 4 (and frankly: Who's missing it that much? And wouldn't it be better suited for the Academy anyway?). It's not introducing a race with a history in the game. It has no central connection to the storyline or mythology of the game. It doesn't incorporate any of the current neutrals. And finally, there's that crucial problem with the technology, and whether we want this facet of the game or not (in other words: Do we want to go Warcraft or not?).
All this is said to explain why this town isn't top priority for me. That being said, I will play along a bit more, until I get better projects to attain to.
Level 1 - The Clockwork Beetle / Spider
This unit is an excellent example of what I said above. While it fits perfectly within the theme of the town, one is likely to sit emptyhanded after contemplating on the reasons for why we actually need this ceature/creation in the game. It's not like it's a classic unit from normal fantasy. It has no connection to the previous game. And it's not like it's bursting with likely cool new abilities for the game. In fact it seems to me like it was created not with any purpose in mind, but simply to full the empty spot of a level 1 mechanical unit.
The nature of the unit as I see it is something small and week, yet agile. Below is shown an example of a stat set for the unit. Obviously, the unit is focused on defence with poor Attack rating, and I deliberately set the Damage score to 1-1 to reflect the very weak nature of the unit. This is somewhat compensated by a large Growth Rate (the number provided is base growth, so double up for Castle growth). It's agility is also a redeeming quality, and with the Climb Walls ability, it might even come handy in Siege situations - though it's more likely to come dead in such a situation, if it was send to the front of combat. The Tie ability was an attempt to make this unit usefull in a defensive way - remotely resembling a real spider's web, the idea was for the Spiders to tie up an enemy unit to slow them down. Since this would be accomplished on contact, however, harm would be likely to come to the Spiders in the progres - even if the action didn't count as an attack proper, and therefore wouldn't trigger a retaliation attack.
Level 2 - The Gnome Mechanic / Engineer
With risk of repeating myself overly much, this is another unit that makes good sense in terms of its position in the faction, but which for the game doesn't offer much. A decidedly supporting unit with the Repair ability, and when I removed the ranged ability for overall ballance, there's not much to come after. Actually, ActionJacks proposal of making him able to use various gadgets of the Hero's offers an interesting dimension to this unit. The Prepare ability is another attempt to boost the units supportive abilities - but again, this ability only maes sense in context with higher level units, and therefore isn't going to help much in early game - a stage which is going to be critical for this faction. A suggestion for stats is provided, reflecting the obvious mediocre nature of this unit. Damage is not bad, albeit with a large range, which is the redeaming combat quality of this unit.
Level 3 - The Stone Thrower / Siege Thrower
While this unit suffers from being very close to the Catapult, its existence is actually justified by the fact that this very earth-bound faction is going to need support demolishing city-walls and gates. How one explains the difference between this unit and the actual Catapult will be left as an unanswered question. The unit is characterized being an able albeit unreliable offensive unit - therefore, the area attack ability is going to damage potential, and coupled with an excellent Attack rating and fine damage values - albeit with a wide range - this unit is going to provide the faction with a much needed offensive edge. Defensive properties are poor, but this is probably where the Engineer is going to show his true worth.
 
Level 4 - The Gyrocopter / Battlecopter
The properties of this unit is obviously going to depend on how much one believes in the mechanical abilities of the Gnomes in context with their time. As you know, I'm sceptical about this - I think it would sit best with the game if they were at most ingeneous creatures with ideas that were ahead of their time - and of their actual ability for construction! The Gyrocopter therefore represents a paradoxal unit - arguably being their most marvelous invention in that it can actually fly, it's at the same time not particularly usefull for offence, because its flying abilities are only so and so. Thus, instead of creating a new (all-dominating) Blood Fury unit, I have chosen to equip this unit with the Flying and Strike And Return ability - but with a sub-average Speed! This is also tactically wise, because this unit sits between two able mid-level Ranged units, and therefore would make for a very unballanced line-up. That being said, the unit is actually an excellent attacker, and will probably do much good for protecting the ranged units rather than as a front-row attacker.
 
Level 5 - The Alchemist / Scientiest
Another unit that seems to fall between a couple of groups is the Alchemist. This reflects very well the current disagreement on the nature of the Gnome race - are they scientists, or are they magicians. The unit sketched below can in fact be interpreted as both. I have chosen to equip him with a fireball attack, but this is thought as thrown bottles of flamable liquids (Greek fire) rather than a magic attack. On the other hand, I have equipped the upgraded form with a couple of spells - Firetrap and Firewall, that imo. both sits excellently with this unit. If one would like to go away from the magical aspect completely, one could simply make these activated abilities rather than spells. The frail nature of the Gnome race - they are very slight creatures after all - is reflected in stats that aren't that impressive for its level, and a very low HP value - this will be compensated by a larger than normal growth (like the Djinn), and considering the Growth rate, the fireball attack might actually make this unit quite powerfull. Notice that the fireattack only does half damage, but since this damage will not be affected by range penalty, this will correspond to a normal 3x3 attack once you go beyond half range.
Level 6 - The Armour Vehicle / The Plated Vehicle
Like with the Battlecopter, the nature of this unit is very much going to depend on the interpration one takes of the level of advancement of the faction. I have chosen to focus on the automobility facet rather than the Tank facet in my approach (in order not to create another Treant!) - thus, the Roll Over ability represents the fact that this unit, once moving, is going to be nearly unstoppable. One might add another fun feature to explore this further - like, for each space this unit moves, it'll have a bonus to its ATB value (bonus to ATB might be 0.1 x number of tiles) but will have to move, say, half of the distance moved the previous turn in the same direction before gaining control of the unit [thus, if the unit moved a full 6 tiles, it will have a 0.6 bonus to ATB (that might be too much!), but will have to continue another 3 tiles in the same direction on the next turn, before it can act (and will then only be able to move the remaining 3 tiles)]. Well, that was a thought - anyway, the unit has excellent defensive properties, but average HP, and will do good damage - especially if the Roll Over ability can be exploited. Damage Reduction will save this unit against small stacks - thus, stacks that do less than 50 damage will be unable to hurt it, which can be a nice life-saver, albeit hardly game defining. Ram ability will help breake the way for the Dragon Constructo.
 
Level 7 - The Constructo / The Dragon Constructo
Long time users of the Altar will notice that this was the same unit I wanted to include with the Dwarves as level 7 - but it can nicely be included here instead. The reason for the somewhat strange Constructo name is simply that I wanted to avoid the word "Golem", which is now reserved for the magically animated creatures of the Academy. The unit will bring a much required movement potential to the town, with a handy Speed of 9 and respectable Initiative of 12. Because focus is on speed rather than strength for this unit, the Stats are below average, even though the multi-attack comboes and decent damage range will make up for this. HP also are pretty average, and sufficient to make sending this unit in the front into combat a viable strategy. The Grab ability, furthermore, will make for a handy way to passify a nasty enemy unit and prevent it from reaching the weaker ranged units.
This is the thoughts I've done so far. Some things can be changed - I liked the transport feature of the Tank that ActionJack listed (albeit I have trouble seing a unit one would actually want to transport to the front - and no, the Constructo is not going to fit into it!). I think the above line-up is fairly ballanced, both in terms of Stats and in terms of unit types. The main problem of this faction is deffinitely going to be the level 1 and 2 units (and their lack of offensive edge), and a more competitive level 1 unit might be required.
Will try to give some thoughts about racial skills later - and completely master the thoughts of ActionJacks very complicated post!
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bixie
Promising
Legendary Hero
my common sense is tingling!
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posted January 04, 2007 09:29 AM |
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Quote:
yay, monstrous metal mince pies, i love this faction!
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Love, Laugh, Learn, Live.
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baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
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posted January 04, 2007 01:41 PM |
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The stone thrower pic looks too much like the trebuchet used in siege battles...
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actionjack
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted January 05, 2007 03:34 AM |
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Nice list Alc. One thing I do perfer is that the unit be more mechanical "creature" like, instead of a seige weapon. Now.. need to wait for the hero/faction ablility to round up the whole picture...
Balava... I don't mind adding my line-up to the OP, but can you add some credit? title it "AJ's Gnome Faction Concept Write Up" in front... Thanks.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted January 05, 2007 07:04 AM |
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Well, the Stone Thrower IS a Siege Catapult - let's call a spoon for a spoon! And to bring along a couple of smaller ones for combat makes sense for me - remember the Heroes 4 Catapult unit?
Anyway, they are all Leonardo Da Vinci drawings - that's why I included them. And no, I'm not very fond of the whole robotics-thing.
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baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
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posted January 05, 2007 01:26 PM |
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Edited by baklava at 13:56, 05 Jan 2007.
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Quote:
I don't mind adding my line-up to the OP, but can you add some credit? title it "AJ's Gnome Faction Concept Write Up" in front... Thanks.
Of course, I thought I'd add everyone's name and what they did in the credits, but I could put it there too. The whole point is that this is all subject to change and I simply thought to put credits in the end, when everything has been finished. But I'll put your name in, you definitely deserve it. I just think it's better to type "ActionJack" than "AJ" since there's already an AJ in Backstreet Boys and I don't want people to think we cooperate with those... creatures
Quote:
And to bring along a couple of smaller ones for combat makes sense for me - remember the Heroes 4 Catapult unit?
Yes but there were no ordinary catapults in Heroes IV. Smaller trebuchets are simply unoriginal... I shouldn't have included them in the line-up in the first place
Started editing the main post... Mostly correcting spelling mistakes and typos, and changing some inappropriate names (battle droids into war walkers and stuff like that) so that it fits the heroes atmosphere better
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bixie
Promising
Legendary Hero
my common sense is tingling!
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posted January 05, 2007 02:59 PM |
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so your changing level 3?
excellent!, i can run riot now... sorry, i mean, can i suggest a creature.
gnome springbox (a gnome controling a weird contruction that has an enormous spring at the bottom. has a springloaded attack that fires across 2 square)
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GenieLord
Honorable
Legendary Hero
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posted January 05, 2007 03:12 PM |
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There's something about this faction that still sounds very strange to me:
There are things like modern weapon (of bombs, laser guns, etc) with medival weapons (of knives, rocks, etc).
And it's all in one faction.
What's the time this faction is in?
It's like you mixes all the ages together!
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This thread is pages long: 
