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| Thread: In-depth subjective haven analysis |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 · NEXT» |
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted February 12, 2007 07:37 PM |
bonus applied. |
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In-depth subjective haven analysis
Ok, time for the last of my.. err.. what's the plural of "analysis" ? ~~
Anyway, I've written about every faction except sylvan (which I suck with) and dwarves (cuz their costs drive me mad). So, it's haven time 
The faction is much, MUCH better balanced in 2.01 while remaining strong and thanks to it, it's finally fun to play. Well, if you like might, of course.
So..
Heroes
Ellaine
Speciality: Poor. Obviously. +ATT/DEF for conscripts would work IF you could boost their numbers somehow.. and you can't. Getting double cash from peasants isn't hot either. Taxpayer is rather sucky, since in the first weeks the peasants barely pay for their price, and you need them as meatshields very early, so it does nothing in fact, and later +150 gold per day isn't really much.
Skills: Leadership is a good skill, but very common among knights (15% chance at levelup), so nothing special here. Recruitment sucks - haven's 1,2 and 3rd level units come up in hordes, +3 peasants or +2 archers means nothing anyway and the restrictions of this skill make it totally worthless.
Rating: I seriously don't see a point of getting this hero, maybe if you can get 200 peasants in first day.. or.. 2+/10
Klaus
Speciality Ridiculously overpowered in 1.00 and decent in this patch. At level 15, charging paladins would get 85% bonus damage for 8 tiles instead of normal 40%.. well, decent, it gives more than a normal specialization would give.. too bad that it doesn't boost their defense. The retaliation strike bonus is a waste since retaliation strike sucks horribly.
Skills Attack is a natural choice for knights, but, again, it's a common skill (10% chance at levelup). Starts with retaliation strike which, as I mentioned before, sucks, but it's needed for a VERY good skill, divine guidance, so it should be taken anyway.
Rating Klaus isn't broken anymore and is a mediocre hero. Still can be a killer if you get him on a rich map and spend all gold on training paladins only (paired with antimagic). Otherwise, go for other heroes. 5+/10.
Laszlo
Speciality Well, it used to be a killer with the old training system.. no, I'm not joking, Laszlo on rich maps enjoyed an army of squires doing damage three times greater than black dragons PLUS shield bash triggering all the time due to massive HP of the stack. With divine guidance and mass haste, it was a JOKE. Maybe not as big as marksmen, but WAY more durable. That lies in the past, however. The current laszlo is, like Klaus, a mediocre guy. Sure, you can still double the squires' population via training, but it will still give you slightly above 100 damage per week. Not bad for a tanky level 3 unit, but the potential of training lies elsewhere IMO.
SkillsDefense is another skill I'd like to see for every knight, but 15% chance of getting it makes starting with it not very hot. Vitality may help in the beginning, but since marksmen hordes are no more, the need for vitality is significantly lower.
Rating Just like Klaus: Mediocre. 5/10.
Rutger
Speciality: Well, rutger is fast. And that's it - you obviously won't have much use of that in combat. Also, you need a few levels to actually see the profit - and fast movement matters most in the beginning. So, a mediocre speciality at best.
Skills: Logistics have 8% chance for popping up, so I'd say it's quite nice to have them.. too bad it won't help you much in earlygame. Duh. Still, a useful skill, and pathfinding isn't bad too. It contributes to familiar ground, but I'm not particularly crazy about this skill.
Rating: Nothing special about this hero. If he had teleport spell like Grok, from the beginning - it would be a different story. 5/10.
Vittorio
Speciality: Well, aside from the bonus for the catapult, which isn't bad, vittorio comes with +1ATT to his ballista per level.. which makes it hit very, very hard at level 20, paired with triple ballista skill. And it helps in the earlygame a bit. Not that bad.
Skills Warmachines are always welcome for a non-magical town, so.. good. Easy to get tent too, which - due to changes in morale system - may be needed for agressive creeping.
Rating Since you can no longer depend on Irina, Vittorio may be a nice substitute for creeping.. but don't forget that he doesn't offer much beside that. Stick with other heroes on rich maps. 6+/10.
Maeve
Speciality For all speedfreaks.. well, this one on lvl 20 speeds up the army by 60%, plus benediction, which ends with a boost almost matching the bugged wyngaal+haste.. 
Skills Both attack and leadership. Well, they are needed both.. too bad that they are so common, but at least she doesn't start with sorecery or smth.. -_-
Rating Funny hero. I'd rather go for Irina or Dougal, but she has some potential too. 6+/10
Irina
Speciality: Well, since griffins are quite fragile for a haven unit, it's good to have a bonus to their DEF.. and a couple of extra ATT points are always welcome. Too bad you can't train griffins, but it would be kinda ridiculous to transform a peasant into a griffin Sadly, battledive may trigger morale now, which messes up ATB bar and may make your griffons land EXACTLY before the enemy stack's move.. and there goes all the planning. So, Irina is no longer good for creeping. Still, I'd consider her bonus as one of the best in the haven town.
Skills Luck is one of the best skills in h5 (if not best), and 8% chance is nice, but nothing certain, so I'd say it's the best thing you could start with.
Rating: Nice speciality, good starting skill.. Well, a good hero IMO. 8/10.
Dougal
Speciality: Mr.imbalance has returned :] No, he is not broken anymore (how funny that three of haven heroes in 1.00 were completely broken, lol), but still it's one of the best bets. Even 20 marksmen more per week+dougal bonus give more damage per week than black dragons do. So..
Skills: Attack is nice, and archery is a must since you're meant to focus on marksmen. Not bad either.
Rating: Dougie is a mere shadow of what he used to be in previous versions, but still, I consider him one of the better haven heroes.. With many archers and bonus to them he enjoys quite reliable earlygame, and later on he adds another 200+ damageperweek unit to haven's arsenal.. and the piercing shot.. guh. 8/10.
Units
Conscripts: Although they may seem useless, they actually can do decent damage or accidently trigger shield bash.. In duel mode, they do quite well in fact. Still, I'd rely on other units, and leave an extra slot for an additional stack of paladins (extra lay hands) or inquisitors (extra spells). 3/10.
Marksmen: Still hot. Best to use a considerable ammount of them+proper placing of several stacks consisting 1 peasant to clear a dragon utopia quickly. Later on they add a bit of ranged firepower, and with dougal and training they are the strongest shooter in the game. Yes, still  level 2 200+ unit isn't something to laugh at. Divine guidance and haste helps to do something with their pitiful initiative. 8/10.
[bSquires: Utility. Big shield makes it very good to clear mines with dougal+marksmen, since they take little damage.. And they can be quite good when everything else is dead. Check the duelmode  7/10 for their "shields allies" perk.
Imperials: The best level 4 unit IMO, now battledive is affected by morale, which is a mixed blessing, but generally a good thing in lategame and in battle with a good human player. Griffins can kill any ranged unit, no matter how well protected, and their incredible initiative and nice damage makes them powerful attackers. They die quickly under a heavy focus, so try to use their diving first and let the enemy focus on something else. They may enter the battle when the damage is no longer THAT deadly. Especially good with Irina. If you manage to bless Irina's griffs between dives, they become a 200+ damage unit too. Zomg. Another one! 8/10.
Inquisitors: Well, their survivability is amazing, and they have the no-melee penalty.. and a lot of useful spells. Even if your hero was out of luck and didn't get the light magic, a group of inquisitors may still boost your most important units significantly. A clever 2.01 strategy involves training some footmen to priests, so you can double the growth of inquisitors, making them do as much damage as arch-liches, while being almost three times harder to beat and with no-melee penalty! If you can train more, like, say, 10, inquisitors can also become a 200+ damageperweek unit. Holy! It becomes ridiculous. Either them, or marksmen, that is. Or,+6 extra inquisitors and +14 extra marksmen to get Inquisitors at 160 damageper week and dougal's marksmen at 200 damage per week. Anyways, 7/10(without taking training into consideration ofc).
Paladins: The best level 6 unit, I'd say(Death Knights excluded). 12 initiative, good A/D, very fast, more powerful damage than blackies can do when jousting 8 tiles and they come with 100%reliable cleansing, a lifesaver against puppet master. Obviously use at least two stacks of these (three if you don't have cleansing and you're against an obvious darkmagic user, like inferno or necropolis) - one big for damage and one tiny for cleansing and protecting marksmen if you wish. A big 10/10 here! (Do I need to mention that they are another 200+ unit?? : O)
Arachangels: Well. Archangels are quite good, their ressurection may not be as good as archdevil's raise pitlords, but it's a matter of taste. They are very, very tough and do a lot damage (a natural 200+ unit), paired with huge speed and 11 initiative makes them a nice addition to any army. Ressurection may be useful when used together with guardian angel: since archangels are likely to be ressurected by that skill, they can use their own ressurection and raise a but of paladins, and suddenly, after "losing" you still have a nice army to kick your enemy's weakened butt, bwahaha Not to hard to get either. 8+/10.
Skills to get
Counterstrike:Expert Trainer, Benediction, Retaliation Strike.
Counterstrike is not that bad (at least it does something except lowering the costs of training). Expert Trainer is a must in 2.01 if you want to use training and it unlocks retribution. Retaliation strike sucks but it's needed for ungodly divine guidance Benediction is quite nice and it unlocks refined mana.. and aura of swiftness, if you want it that is.
Attack: Archery, Retribution.
Retribution and attack together is a +50% damage boost to your already nice attack, archery works good if you want to use dougal or get some boosted inquisitor ammounts. You can also get tactics at certain times (like against endgame elves with avenger, luck and emerald dragons to prevent them from melting marksmen), and battlefrenzy may be a good addition for dougal.
Leadership: Divine Guidance
Only divine guidance is a must here, since it really helps in creeping and countering slowing/stopping spells. You may also consider aura of swiftness, if you wish.
Defense
If the troops are tough, why not to make them tougher?  From the skills, none of them is necessary, although vitality may be good for dougal and evasion may just be useful at times.
Luck
Ahh, the good old gamebreaker. So fun to get your charging paladins lucky and score a one-hit-kill.. and get another one hit kill from charging archangels. Oh yes, resourcefulness works suprisingly good with chests, so you may consider taking it, since you need a lot of gold. Other skills aren't necessary.
Light Magic:Master of blessings, Guardian Angel
I like guardian angel. Getting 5 archangels ressurected at an end of a lost battle, and having them ressurect 10 paladins immediately makes me smile in an evil way.. You may want refined mana if you're afraid of running out of it, but better take a second "master of.." perk instead.
Those skills are a must for knights. Others are optional. One slot free You may eventually replace light magic with darkmagic+fallen knight, which can surprise your enemy quite well, or take logistics.. whatever you want. Note that it takes 25 levelups to get all of those, and 23 for dougal and klaus since they start with two needed perks already, so..
Strategies
Creeping: Either vittorio or dougal, if you want to powercreep. Dougal is especially good here because of precise shot which massacres slow walkers and high-level units, squires which make the loses tiny even against master hunters and divine guidance to make marksmen shoot very fast indeed. Vittorio, on the other hand, is the only haven hero which laughs at elder druids once he gets a bunch of imperial griffins and a tent. In general, the combination of marksmen, squires and Imperial griffins can beat any enemy without much effort. Sometimes it's a good idea to take out marksmen and squires off the field and go with imperials only against casters or shootes, sometimes it's better not to use imperials and let precise shot to do its work. With vittorio it's even more aggresive, but weaker against human opponent. Well, honestly, I didn't make my mind up yet.
vs. Inferno: Good old manasuckers will probably drain you, and mass dark spells will come after that. Three stacks of paladins and light-magic orientated knight can do well here, although you can fight fire with fire and go for dark magic.. well, in case you believe you'll have enough mana after being drained, that is. You have the paladins to take care of puppet master and inquisitors to do the blessing, the enemy doesn't. Don't rely on archangels too much, excruciating strike and pitlords will kill them very fast, better get full population of other units and abuse training to maximum.
Also, fast deleb attacks may be quite difficult to handle - against nightmares, especially. Light magic is army dependant, and it earlygame your army is a bit pathetic, so you're endangered. Getting paladins ASAP is a good move, since they can keep the opponent at bay quite fine.
Inferno is a huge threat to haven, perhaps the only town that gains an upper-hand in the late game, but that's a matter of map, too.
vs. Academy: Well, in general your easiest opponent, since you can counter destructive with ressurection, waspswarms with divine guidance, dark with paladins.. and so on. The key is to have a level 5 guild, refined mana perk and a bit of knowledge/power arties at bay. That will make it possible to counter the wizard's efforts while your obviously stronger, inquisitor-boosted creatures tear apart the academic foes. If you play a rich map, Klaus+all gold for paladin training+antimagic in the guild ends the game, no matter what your opponent will do. It's hard to get, but, still..
vs.Dungeon: If you can get ressurection, than good for you. If not.. well, those implosions and meteor showers can be quite annoying. Your perfect light-buffed army has such an incredible advantage over weak dungeon hero's troops that magic is the only thing that can wound you here. Ah yes, dark magic against dungeon is fun. Puppeting the raiders ends the battle, you know
vs.Necropolis: The new necropoly is weak. You can expect a few creatures more, but there's no longer a huge stack of skeletons to fear. Generally throw a lot of mass-buffs and counter-buffs,get three stacks of paladins and go pokemon. Dougal makes a fine choice here - still. As long as you can resist the puppetmaster/frenzy and counter the sufferings with righteous mights, the advantage is yours necromancer has tiny dic.. umm.. attack and knight has got an overgrown defense.
vs.Sylvan: Irina is a fine choice. You can win with a simple rush, of course, but if you don't like/don't want/can't do it, you can still do wonders late-game. Irina's Griffins will destroy master hunters if they are surrounded by other units, if not - your paladins will. If you can sacrifice the griffs to kill the hunters, do so and then wait. He has to come for you, and dougal's precise shot marksmen will still kill most of the toughest stacks in one lucky shot. Mass haste and benediction helps not to get over-speeded. They will probably move faster anyway, though. Ah yes, get tactics.. in case you don't want emerald dragons to score a 450% damage strike at your marksmen, that is. The ranger with 2% chance for attack is unlikely to get tactics and counter that, and dougie's precise shot WILL kill emerald dragons. That's it
Vs.dwarves It can get boring, as you probably can guess - two ultra-tankish armies, both using light magic. You still creep and develop faster than the shorties, so the pressure thing still works. Runes can be a b*tch, though. Forget dark magic here, too. Since they are walkers, mostly, good old precise shot abuse, paired with archangels, luck, ressurection spell and thousand of buffs ends the dull battle relatively easy. Eat that, magmas! >_>
I guess that's all. njoy Probably you know most of that, but who cares, I love to write such things 
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GenieLord
Honorable
Legendary Hero
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posted February 12, 2007 08:01 PM |
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It's the first review ever that I can agree with everything that I read.
The skills recommends are great, the tactics are useful, good creatures' review and nice heroes review.
Someone deserves a qualty point.
I really don't have comments here.
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Fortress_fan
Disgraceful
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posted February 12, 2007 08:54 PM |
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Quote:
It's the first review ever that I can agree with everything that I read.
The skills recommends are great, the tactics are useful, good creatures' review and nice heroes review.
Someone deserves a qualty point.
I really don't have comments here.
I agree! The only thing I disagree with is light magic being more useful than dark magic.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted February 12, 2007 09:13 PM |
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For a knight it is. You'd rather your units end up the battle faster against most factions but dark is fine too.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Istari
Known Hero
Truth Teller, ToH
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posted February 12, 2007 10:43 PM |
bonus applied. |
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Overall, very good analysis. A few comments though.
Quote:
Heroes
Ellaine
Speciality: Poor. Obviously. +ATT/DEF for conscripts would work IF you could boost their numbers somehow.. and you can't. Getting double cash from peasants isn't hot either. Taxpayer is rather sucky, since in the first weeks the peasants barely pay for their price, and you need them as meatshields very early, so it does nothing in fact, and later +150 gold per day isn't really much.
Skills: Leadership is a good skill, but very common among knights (15% chance at levelup), so nothing special here. Recruitment sucks - haven's 1,2 and 3rd level units come up in hordes, +3 peasants or +2 archers means nothing anyway and the restrictions of this skill make it totally worthless.
Rating: I seriously don't see a point of getting this hero, maybe if you can get 200 peasants in first day.. or.. 2+/10
I agree that Ellaine is definately not a #1 Hero, but there is more to the game than #1 Heroes. Ellaine is outstanding to pick up early in the tavern. You shouldn't be meat sheilding peasants, use stacks of 1 and take mininal losses, but don't put an entire stack of peasants in a fight. I typically give my #1 Hero about 20 peasants or so and they slowly dwindle after a few weeks, but the rest of peasants can be making $. It may not be much, but every bit helps with Haven. Also recruitment and easy access to estates = perfect Castle sitter/ second Hero. What if she doesn't get leadership and estates in the 1st few levels, no problem- she's getting counterstrike and expert trainer, so you dno't have to waste it on your #1 Hero. She needs a higher rating for being a great support Hero.
Klaus
Speciality Ridiculously overpowered in 1.00 and decent in this patch. At level 15, charging paladins would get 85% bonus damage for 8 tiles instead of normal 40%.. well, decent, it gives more than a normal specialization would give.. too bad that it doesn't boost their defense. The retaliation strike bonus is a waste since retaliation strike sucks horribly.
Skills Attack is a natural choice for knights, but, again, it's a common skill (10% chance at levelup). Starts with retaliation strike which, as I mentioned before, sucks, but it's needed for a VERY good skill, divine guidance, so it should be taken anyway.
Rating Klaus isn't broken anymore and is a mediocre hero. Still can be a killer if you get him on a rich map and spend all gold on training paladins only (paired with antimagic). Otherwise, go for other heroes. 5+/10.
agree
Laszlo
Speciality Well, it used to be a killer with the old training system.. no, I'm not joking, Laszlo on rich maps enjoyed an army of squires doing damage three times greater than black dragons PLUS shield bash triggering all the time due to massive HP of the stack. With divine guidance and mass haste, it was a JOKE. Maybe not as big as marksmen, but WAY more durable. That lies in the past, however. The current laszlo is, like Klaus, a mediocre guy. Sure, you can still double the squires' population via training, but it will still give you slightly above 100 damage per week. Not bad for a tanky level 3 unit, but the potential of training lies elsewhere IMO.
SkillsDefense is another skill I'd like to see for every knight, but 15% chance of getting it makes starting with it not very hot. Vitality may help in the beginning, but since marksmen hordes are no more, the need for vitality is significantly lower.
Rating Just like Klaus: Mediocre. 5/10.
I'd even go lower. Squires are good for shield guard and that's about it. It's better to just buy a few squires and save the rest of your $ for any other Haven troop or training.
Rutger
Speciality: Well, rutger is fast. And that's it - you obviously won't have much use of that in combat. Also, you need a few levels to actually see the profit - and fast movement matters most in the beginning. So, a mediocre speciality at best.
Skills: Logistics have 8% chance for popping up, so I'd say it's quite nice to have them.. too bad it won't help you much in earlygame. Duh. Still, a useful skill, and pathfinding isn't bad too. It contributes to familiar ground, but I'm not particularly crazy about this skill.
Rating: Nothing special about this hero. If he had teleport spell like Grok, from the beginning - it would be a different story. 5/10.
I enjoy him as a run between to get troops to my main Hero, nothing special.
Vittorio
Speciality: Well, aside from the bonus for the catapult, which isn't bad, vittorio comes with +1ATT to his ballista per level.. which makes it hit very, very hard at level 20, paired with triple ballista skill. And it helps in the earlygame a bit. Not that bad.
Skills Warmachines are always welcome for a non-magical town, so.. good. Easy to get tent too, which - due to changes in morale system - may be needed for agressive creeping.
Rating Since you can no longer depend on Irina, Vittorio may be a nice substitute for creeping.. but don't forget that he doesn't offer much beside that. Stick with other heroes on rich maps. 6+/10.
This rating probably too low. I'm still playing around with the Hero's and trying to create two Hero's that can exand the map in different directions. The problem with might Heroes is they are very troop depend and thus, don't split well. Vittorio's ballista is the only thing that helps compensate for that. If this strategy works (still testing it), it would make Vittorio the best Hero to select and settle for either Klaus, Irina, Maeve, or Dougal (whoever comes up in the tavern).
Maeve
Speciality For all speedfreaks.. well, this one on lvl 20 speeds up the army by 60%, plus benediction, which ends with a boost almost matching the bugged wyngaal+haste..
Skills Both attack and leadership. Well, they are needed both.. too bad that they are so common, but at least she doesn't start with sorecery or smth.. -_-
Rating Funny hero. I'd rather go for Irina or Dougal, but she has some potential too. 6+/10
Haven't used her much, but I agree- very high potential.
Irina
Speciality: Well, since griffins are quite fragile for a haven unit, it's good to have a bonus to their DEF.. and a couple of extra ATT points are always welcome. Too bad you can't train griffins, but it would be kinda ridiculous to transform a peasant into a griffin Sadly, battledive may trigger morale now, which messes up ATB bar and may make your griffons land EXACTLY before the enemy stack's move.. and there goes all the planning. So, Irina is no longer good for creeping. Still, I'd consider her bonus as one of the best in the haven town.
Skills Luck is one of the best skills in h5 (if not best), and 8% chance is nice, but nothing certain, so I'd say it's the best thing you could start with.
Rating: Nice speciality, good starting skill.. Well, a good hero IMO. 8/10.
I see her potential with creeping and battle diving griffins. I haven't used her so I can't say too much but still seems like a high rating. Once griffins are targeted and killed she gives you nothing. Also no training for griffins, so the will be killed easily.
Dougal
Speciality: Mr.imbalance has returned :] No, he is not broken anymore (how funny that three of haven heroes in 1.00 were completely broken, lol), but still it's one of the best bets. Even 20 marksmen more per week+dougal bonus give more damage per week than black dragons do. So..
Skills: Attack is nice, and archery is a must since you're meant to focus on marksmen. Not bad either.
Rating: Dougie is a mere shadow of what he used to be in previous versions, but still, I consider him one of the better haven heroes.. With many archers and bonus to them he enjoys quite reliable earlygame, and later on he adds another 200+ damageperweek unit to haven's arsenal.. and the piercing shot.. guh. 8/10.
Probably second best in creeping behind Vittorio because of the extra archers which you can upgrade to marksman on day 2 or 3 without hurting you creature build. Still good, but yeah- less no that training got nerfed.
Units
Conscripts: Although they may seem useless, they actually can do decent damage or accidently trigger shield bash.. In duel mode, they do quite well in fact. Still, I'd rely on other units, and leave an extra slot for an additional stack of paladins (extra lay hands) or inquisitors (extra spells). 3/10.
I never even buy the dwelling. I always need more $, better to the taxpayer $ and spent your $ on better troops.
Marksmen: Still hot. Best to use a considerable ammount of them+proper placing of several stacks consisting 1 peasant to clear a dragon utopia quickly. Later on they add a bit of ranged firepower, and with dougal and training they are the strongest shooter in the game. Yes, still level 2 200+ unit isn't something to laugh at. Divine guidance and haste helps to do something with their pitiful initiative. 8/10.
Good analysis
[bSquires: Utility. Big shield makes it very good to clear mines with dougal+marksmen, since they take little damage.. And they can be quite good when everything else is dead. Check the duelmode 7/10 for their "shields allies" perk.
A bit over-rated. Buy 10 and use shield allies. Save your $ for better troops and training.
Imperials: The best level 4 unit IMO, now battledive is affected by morale, which is a mixed blessing, but generally a good thing in lategame and in battle with a good human player. Griffins can kill any ranged unit, no matter how well protected, and their incredible initiative and nice damage makes them powerful attackers. They die quickly under a heavy focus, so try to use their diving first and let the enemy focus on something else. They may enter the battle when the damage is no longer THAT deadly. Especially good with Irina. If you manage to bless Irina's griffs between dives, they become a 200+ damage unit too. Zomg. Another one! 8/10.
I love Imperials. Hard to keep alive somtimes but still lots of fun.
Inquisitors: Well, their survivability is amazing, and they have the no-melee penalty.. and a lot of useful spells. Even if your hero was out of luck and didn't get the light magic, a group of inquisitors may still boost your most important units significantly. A clever 2.01 strategy involves training some footmen to priests, so you can double the growth of inquisitors, making them do as much damage as arch-liches, while being almost three times harder to beat and with no-melee penalty! If you can train more, like, say, 10, inquisitors can also become a 200+ damageperweek unit. Holy! It becomes ridiculous. Either them, or marksmen, that is. Or,+6 extra inquisitors and +14 extra marksmen to get Inquisitors at 160 damageper week and dougal's marksmen at 200 damage per week. Anyways, 7/10(without taking training into consideration ofc).
This is another one that I will only but a few of. There damage/$ is pathetic. Great for spells. They are durable, but the Haven emphasis needs to be on getting the other guy dead fast, before they are overwhelmed by magic.
Paladins: The best level 6 unit, I'd say(Death Knights excluded). 12 initiative, good A/D, very fast, more powerful damage than blackies can do when jousting 8 tiles and they come with 100%reliable cleansing, a lifesaver against puppet master. Obviously use at least two stacks of these (three if you don't have cleansing and you're against an obvious darkmagic user, like inferno or necropolis) - one big for damage and one tiny for cleansing and protecting marksmen if you wish. A big 10/10 here! (Do I need to mention that they are another 200+ unit?? : O)
This is where all the $ goes. Train all your priests into paladins- even better with Klaus. The few extra training spots that you get should go to training peasants to archers, as long as you keep a few Inquisitors for spells.
Arachangels: Well. Archangels are quite good, their ressurection may not be as good as archdevil's raise pitlords, but it's a matter of taste. They are very, very tough and do a lot damage (a natural 200+ unit), paired with huge speed and 11 initiative makes them a nice addition to any army. Ressurection may be useful when used together with guardian angel: since archangels are likely to be ressurected by that skill, they can use their own ressurection and raise a but of paladins, and suddenly, after "losing" you still have a nice army to kick your enemy's weakened butt, bwahaha Not to hard to get either. 8+/10.
Great unit. Buying these is another great place for $. Remember $ is the key with Haven. Ignore conscripts and all but a few squires and Inquisitors. The bulk of the $ needs to go to all the other higher damage units.
Skills to get
Counterstrike:Expert Trainer, Benediction, Retaliation Strike.
Counterstrike is not that bad (at least it does something except lowering the costs of training). Expert Trainer is a must in 2.01 if you want to use training and it unlocks retribution. Retaliation strike sucks but it's needed for ungodly divine guidance Benediction is quite nice and it unlocks refined mana.. and aura of swiftness, if you want it that is.
Attack: Archery, Retribution.
Retribution and attack together is a +50% damage boost to your already nice attack, archery works good if you want to use dougal or get some boosted inquisitor ammounts. You can also get tactics at certain times (like against endgame elves with avenger, luck and emerald dragons to prevent them from melting marksmen), and battlefrenzy may be a good addition for dougal.
Leadership: Divine Guidance
Only divine guidance is a must here, since it really helps in creeping and countering slowing/stopping spells. You may also consider aura of swiftness, if you wish.
Defense
If the troops are tough, why not to make them tougher? From the skills, none of them is necessary, although vitality may be good for dougal and evasion may just be useful at times.
Luck
Ahh, the good old gamebreaker. So fun to get your charging paladins lucky and score a one-hit-kill.. and get another one hit kill from charging archangels. Oh yes, resourcefulness works suprisingly good with chests, so you may consider taking it, since you need a lot of gold. Other skills aren't necessary.
Light Magic:Master of blessings, Guardian Angel
I like guardian angel. Getting 5 archangels ressurected at an end of a lost battle, and having them ressurect 10 paladins immediately makes me smile in an evil way.. You may want refined mana if you're afraid of running out of it, but better take a second "master of.." perk instead.
Those skills are a must for knights. Others are optional. One slot free You may eventually replace light magic with darkmagic+fallen knight, which can surprise your enemy quite well, or take logistics.. whatever you want. Note that it takes 25 levelups to get all of those, and 23 for dougal and klaus since they start with two needed perks already, so..
There are no free slots. You list all 6 skills and don't include Logistics. I agree that these are all nice skills, but some choices have to be made. With Vittorio I love War Machines, Luck, Light, Logistics, and if I can get it Enlightenment. If no Enlightenment, than probably substitute Luck and Enlightenment for Leadership and Attack. Or, if no Vittorio Logistics, Light, Luck, Attack, Leadership, Counterstrike. I like the Leadership abilities but skip them because it takes too many useless levels in counterstrike to get them. Better to let a secondary hero get counterstrike and use you main Hero levels on more useful skills and abilities. I'd be interested to hear what skills you sacrifice from above to take the obviously needed Logistics.
You strategies are solid with very little variation from faction to faction, which is the strength of the Haven. When the Haven is on the map under the control of a skilled Haven player, it makes everyone else play its game. It does not change for other factions nearly as much as every other faction needs to change to fight it.
I guess that's all. njoy Probably you know most of that, but who cares, I love to write such things
I'm glad you enjoy writing these. they are solid quality and create good converstation. Good job.
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Opinions are immunity to being told you're wrong.
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sdfx
Famous Hero
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posted February 12, 2007 11:44 PM |
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I like placing griffins AND single fodders just to make sure that comp will not wait giving me better odds with Divine Guidance after they landed. Plus, I want mass slow affect my griffins in the next patch
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted February 13, 2007 09:50 AM |
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thanks guys. But I still know what the plural form of "analysis" is
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Sanyu
Known Hero
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posted February 13, 2007 10:04 AM |
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Quote:
thanks guys. But I still know what the plural form of "analysis" is
I think it's analyses.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted February 13, 2007 11:21 AM |
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Yes, plural of Analysis is Analyses. Quite confusing. 
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What will happen now?
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sdfx
Famous Hero
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posted February 13, 2007 11:24 AM |
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Artefacts helping with mana problems against Inferno:
Cloak:
Dragon Wing Mantle - Major - Cost: 14000
Adds +3 to hero's knowledge and increases initiative of all flying units in hero's army by 10%
Helm:
Necromancer's Helm - Minor - Cost: 4000
Increases hero's knowledge by +2
Helm Of Chaos - Minor - Cost: 8000
Increases hero's knowledge by +3, but decreases his defense by -1
Dragon Talon Crown - Major - Cost: 14000
Adds +3 to hero's knowledge and increases initiative of all war machines in hero's army by 10% (good for Vittorio)
Helm of the Dwarven Kings- Relic - Cost: 25000
Adds +4 to hero's knowledge and renders all creatures in hero's army immune to Blind spell.
Crown of Sar-Issus - Relic - Cost: 36000
Adds +6 to hero's knowledge.
Cuirass:
Runic War Harness - Major - Cost: 16000
Increases hero's Defense and Knowledge by +2
Armor of the Forgotten Hero - Relic - Cost: 36000
Adds +2 to hero's primary stats and grants 20% magic resistance to hero's army.
Boots:
Sandals of the Blessed - Relic - Cost: 30000
Increases all hero stats by +1
Cloak:
Dragon Wing Mantle - Major - Cost: 14000
Adds +3 to hero's knowledge and increases initiative of all flying units in hero's army by 10%
Ring:
Dragon Eye Ring - Major - Cost: 25000
Adds +1 to all hero's attributes and increases initiative of all shooters in hero's army by 10%
Ring of Sar-Issus - Relic - Cost: 40000
Reduces the mana cost of all hero's spells by half.
Necklace:
Pendant of Conflux - Relic - Cost: 15000
Hero gains 1 mana point for every 2 mana points spent by enemy hero
Pocket:
Tarot Deck - Minor - Cost: 4500
Increases hero's Luck and Knowledge by +1
Skull of Markal - Relic - Cost: 38000
Increases hero's Spellpower and knowledge by +5, but decreases Morale by -2.
My point is that helms are not the only way to get some knowledge - each artifact group has some interesting boosters to offer. The only problem is getting them in time
Vittorio is probably the best knight against Inferno because ballista is immune to dark and a tent can cleanse dark magic up to 3 times. 6th kill slot should wait for Enlightenment or maybe even Sorcery (Arcane Excellence gives temporarily +100 mana)
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted February 13, 2007 11:55 AM |
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Doomforge: I think you're improving on your... ahem.. analyses each time 
Just a note: when you rate a creature, you should rate it for effectiveness/price IMHO.. You can't say Conscripts are weak for only 30 gold.. compare 1 Arch Devil to 155 conscripts that cost the same (if you're referring to growth, then believe me: lower tiers have less growth than higher tiers, never compare between, that's why furies have less growth than minos and cost less).
So in my opinion, rate a creature for effectiveness/price, not only effectiveness. Ofc 49 conscripts are weak, but you also waste only 1470 gold on it.
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ZombieLord
Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
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posted February 13, 2007 12:10 PM |
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I would rate Ellaine 2+/10 for primary hero and 9+/10 for secondary hero. It's the best secondary hero! (starts out with Leadership, Recruitment, and you can get Estates too) Not to mention the Peasants give twice more gold per day thanks to her. She is not good only for Haven btw (as sec. hero of course)
Good work, I really agree with almost everything you said
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted February 14, 2007 09:57 PM |
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There is something I learned recently: Haven can be rushed. Easily! No, I'm serious. Not only Deleb, but academy and Dungeon with massive magic-orientated offensive can do it.. I mean, it's relatively easy to get powerful spells and levels, while gathering an army for haven hero takes time, and lite magic is good with a huge army mostly.. so, if he comes for you with a good magical backup, you're done for!
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted February 14, 2007 10:33 PM |
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There were cases where MMR had tackled haven with the old training in week around 4-6 I think. 86wyp had posted some pics of the battle in the round table if you choose to believe they weren't 'planned'.
Now it should be easier. And of course a dungeon army with an early meteor shower could do miracles if they also got secrets of destruction early. But if the rush is unsuccessful, dungeon will be behind in army value.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Istari
Known Hero
Truth Teller, ToH
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posted February 15, 2007 04:21 PM |
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I'm still curious about your skill selection. I think I have settled on Vittorio- War Machines, Logistics, Light, Luck, and leadership. If I take anyone besides Vittorio then probably Logistics, Light, Luck, Leadership, Enlightenment (if offered), Attack (if enlightenment not offered or Hero starts with it). I don't get enough levels to get a lot of abilities, so I like the skills that are good without needing their abilities. Now that the focus is not on Marksmen Vitality and Battle Frenzy are not as important so Attack and Defense are a little less important. Note that those skills only apply to my first hero. I haven't been able to successfully create a stong second hero to explore the map, but my second hero does guard the castle from my frequent attacks. For my second hero I like the same skills except exchanging Dark for Light and focusing on Counterstrike and expert trainer first, then leadership and estates. Obviously counterstrick and expert training, because this is the training hero. Estates is an obvious choice too, with Haven $=victory. I like Dark better than Light with my castle guarding hero because they are more likely to enter the battle overpowered and Dark is better when the enemy has a bigger army. Slowing down the battl eand disrupting the enemy let the castle torrents hack down their shooters/ flyers. Now that I think of it, I would probably take Defense over Attack too, so similar reasons. Anyways I am curious about your (everyone's) skill compromises with Haven.
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Opinions are immunity to being told you're wrong.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted February 15, 2007 05:27 PM |
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The very first thing to get is divine guidance.. makes life easier. Seriously.
after that.. light magic(or dark) is absolutely the most important next pick, followed by "master of XXX" corresponding to the spells I got in the guild. Haven desperately needs some kind of magic, light or dark, doesn't matter. With units-only you can get easily rushed even by a weaker army, but and stronger mage. So, the chosen magic is meant not only to strenghten your army, but to prevent being washed away by various dark effects (cleansing), destructive (ressurection) or other (antimagic).
Third, developing Leadership and taking Luck, since they're both gamebreaking.
Fourth, attack+retribution, a huge damage increase of all your powerful forces. Attack is still a must.
Finally, some other things, like defense. Sure, logistics is good, but I recently started to play without it with haven.. moving fast is great, but it won't give you much when rushed.
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Darkeye
Promising
Famous Hero
of the Deep
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posted February 15, 2007 07:59 PM |
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Greetings.
I have played Heroes for a long time but could you please explain:
1) The definiton of "Creeping"
2) "A broken hero"
3) How leadership screws up the Imperials according to the ATB
(I love to use them with warlocks + armageddon)
And also. What was the huge difference for the heroes before, in 1.0.
What made for instance Dougal so crazy then?
Thanks for the in depth strategy Doomforge!
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted February 15, 2007 08:22 PM |
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Quote:
1) The definiton of "Creeping"
Killing neutrals for exp and goodies they guard.
Quote:
2) "A broken hero"
"broken" - video game term meaning something is so powerful that nothing can stop it.
Quote:
3) How leadership screws up the Imperials according to the ATB
(I love to use them with warlocks + armageddon)
It screws creeping with imperials, not imperials in player vs. player battle. Earlier you could plan when to strike and when the griffins will land, and it was extremely useful since you could see that i.e. you will have 1 more move after battledive is completed to fly away. It made creeping very easy. Now you can get morale when ascending and after diving, and you cannot predict when the griffins' next move will appear.. and so they often land EXACTLY after the neutral stack's turn, which leads to unwanted casualties.
Quote:
And also. What was the huge difference for the heroes before, in 1.0.
What made for instance Dougal so crazy then?
Klaus in 1.0 made his paladins strike at 680% damage or so after walking 8 tiles, on level 15. A small group of paladins could kill every of enemy's units in one shot.
Dougal wasn't broken: training was. He could afford 600 marksmen at week 6, and rush to end the game. There was no counter.
Laszlo wasn't as hot as those two, but the squires could also reach ridiculous damage/week even without second castle, and they were nearly invincible with their numbers.. they triggered shield bash every time due to their massive HP, too. With mass haste and anti-magic there was no method of stopping laszlo aswell.
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Darkeye
Promising
Famous Hero
of the Deep
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posted February 15, 2007 09:27 PM |
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Thanks for the explanation Doomforge
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Istari
Known Hero
Truth Teller, ToH
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posted February 15, 2007 11:02 PM |
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The general concensus seems to have been that if you don't have logistics in a multiplayer game that your rate of expansion will be too slow. Have you had any difficulties in multiplayer games for skipping logistics?
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Opinions are immunity to being told you're wrong.
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