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| Thread: Hero specialty analysis (The Dark side) |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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Darkeye
Promising
Famous Hero
of the Deep
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posted March 20, 2007 11:14 PM |
bonus applied. |
Edited by Darkeye at 12:27, 02 Apr 2007.
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Hero specialty analysis (The Dark side)
Except for the often overpowered specialties of campaign heroes, the different hero specialties are supposed to be pretty balanced. Compared to Heroes III they are pretty even, but still we have our own favourites.
It is also with modding in mind I have made this analysis as the respective heroes starting skills, spells, units and war machines hasn’t been accounted for in the all the totals.
The other abilities and discussion continues here
Please correct me if anything is wrong. The calculations are based on the latest manual. For this analysis, I have included the effects at level 20 as an example to make it not so technical to read:
Dungeon
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Black Hand (Vayshan)
All Scouts/Assassins get +10 attack/defence (+1 every second level).
Chance of neutral troops of this type joining hero is raised by +20%.
The troops always do half damage at range so it might be considered to use them in higher degree for melee as this bonus will be doubled then (with luck this bonus is further doubled). Assassins does not cause more poison as it is the stack number that decides.
Blood Mistress (Yrwanna)
All Blood maidens/furies get +10 attack/defence (+1 every second level).
Chance of neutral troops of this type joining hero is raised by +20%.
This boosts both an already very offensive troop but also protects them from dying too soon in combat. You should get Aura of Swiftness and/or Tactics in combination to make them attack from round 1. Sacrifices to boost fury growth might be a strategy.
Slave driver (Kythra)
All Minotaur(guards) get +10 attack/defence.
Chance of neutral troops of this type joining hero is raised by +20%.
One of the least potent Dungeon creatures, the bonus doesn’t make up for it. Minotaurs special ability (always positive morale) isn’t used either since Kythra starts with basic Leadership. Kythra is of course an investment herself as she starts with Basic Estates.
Lizard Breeder (Sorgal)
Grim Raiders lizard bite do 120% damage instead of 50%. (110% at level 1)
Chance of neutral dark/grim raiders joining hero is raised by +20%.
At level 1 the difference isn’t much, only 10% which makes this a pretty flat ability, but nevertheless potent. The best way to use this ability is clearly to make your stack of raiders bite as much as possible during a battle. This can be done by first charging with the stack and follow up with as many attacks against the same stack as possible. Extra speed (Aura of Swiftness) and tactics may be very useful. Battle frenzy and attack boosts this further (starting skills for Sorgal)
Coven Mistress (Eruina)
Shadow Witches/Matriarchs have a 50% chance of shooting at a unit effectively targeted by a damaging spell (10%+2%/lvl). Chance of neutral troops of this type joining hero is raised by +20%.
Effectively it gives the units a free shot every heros 2nd turn; expert sorcery will therefore boost this ability further (a must for any warlock anyway). Double (full) damage if target is within range makes closer targets more attractive for spells. Also works with area spells like meteor shower as the centre target will be hit. Watch out for magic mirror (Galib in particular) as it counts in the shooting.
Catalyst (Sinitar)
Empowered spells cost 25% less (5% +1%/lvl) Rounded down.
At lvl 20 the following costs of the empowered versions should be
Last cost is with Arcane Training
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Fist of Wrath 7 / 5
Eldritch Arrow 6 / 4
Stone Spikes 7 /5
Ice Bolt 9 / 6
Lightning Bolt 7 / 5
Fireball 15 / 11
Circle of Winter 13 / 9
Chain Lighting 24 / 17
Meteor Shower 28 / 20
Armageddon 30 / 22
Implosion 27 / 19
Arcane Training doesn’t get better with this skill but shows that the spell cost gets down to almost 50% at level 20 which can be very helpful when lacking knowledge.
Dark Mystic (Yrbeth, Segref, Ylaya, Thralsai)
+40 mana when using dark ritual. (+2 mana/lvl)
This is the only good reason for using Dark Ritual – to get more than you started with. Should be combined with intelligence as that ability doesn’t affect mana regeration. Double mana generation is of course a waste. Makes you independent of wells and guilds to reload.
Still, not a very effective specialty.
Poison Master (Lethos)
50% chance that enemy units starts poisoned (decay). The power of the decay is not stated (hero level?). Magic protection counts, Magic mirror not.
Lethos starts with one less skill/abilty, and gets dark magic which is not the best for a warlock. Still this ability can be very useful and (literally) a pain for the opponent.
Campaign Abilities:
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Master of Iniative (Raelag): +20% to initative, -20% to enemies.
Shadow Dancer (Shadya): -40% damage from ranged attacks.
We see that Dungeon has the highest amount of creature specializations (only equaled by the knight). Two of them (Coven Mistress and Lizard breeder) are different from the others though.
Sinitars Catalyst is a clear favourite as you get most out of your spell points from early on. Sorgals Lizard breeder is a much more interesting variant of creature specialization than the normal +1/2nd level system and opens up for tactical play.
Inferno
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Chosen of Chaos (Nebiros)
+1 luck. Enemy can’t use tactics (while Nebiros starts with it)
A flat ability and the only one who may give a hero +4 luck by himself! This makes him less dependent on luck enhancers or arties for the +5 boost (a clover might do). The tactical advantage can be useful when fighting heroes with rushers like cavalry, furies and raiders.
Gate Keeper (Nymus, Biara)
+20% extra gated creatures. (+1%/lvl)
This ability should be combined with all other multipliers since they are makes it even more potent. Expert Gating a with Gate Keeper at level 20 with Gate Master (Leadership) and Swarming Luck (Luck, 15-35%) will with good luck give 0.4 x 1.2 x 1.2 x 2 = 1,152 that is 15% more creatures than the original stack!
Hound Master (Grawl)
All Hellhounds and Cerberi get +10 attack/defence.
Chance of neutral troops of this type joining hero is raised by +20%.
A medium but very quick and fast creature to master. Cerberi can cause lots of damage since they can multiply it with 3, and therefore the attack bonus is tripled at most.
Iron Maiden (Deleb)
+100 fireball damage/ ballista shot (20+20/5th lvl) (Master of fire not effective)
Can cause decent damage as a bonus if enemy units are in tight formation. Ballista ability is a must (Deleb starts with Ballista). Too bad she can’t get triple ballista.
Mindreaver (Alastor, Guarg)
All enemy casters gets -20 mana when effected by confusion(-1/level)
The only drawback with confusion is that many casters still can cast harmful spells. With this ability this is less a problem and at higher level you may impede the casting totally.
Rusher (Grok, Gamor)
+10% extra movement (+5% +1/lvl). Teleport spell cost half (starting spell)
Totally the extra movement is no more than basic logistics at lvl 20. But Grok also starts with the teleport spell which is after all a 4th level spell no demon lord gets before eventually reaching teleport assault (6 levels needed). The reduced mana is insignificant for a demon lord, except perhaps in the very beginning.
Spellbreaker (Marbas, Veyer)
+25% Magic resistance (5%+1%/lvl)
With MR, the luck ability you will have 40% which is pretty descent. A very defensive ability.
Temptress (Jezebeth)
All Succubus(mistresses) get +10 attack/defence.
Chance of neutral troops of this type joining hero is raised by +20%.
Succubi mistress can be very damaging against multiple stacks. With gating, ammo cart and a few pit lords this is nice for creeping. Unicorn bow most appreciated.
Campaign Abilities:
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Aura of Swiftness (Agrael, Sovereign): +40% to initative
Perhaps a bit boring, but I prefer the Gate Keeper, trusting in the sheer numbers of gated creatures.
Necropolis
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Banshee (Deirdre)
Banshee howl gives -2 luck, -2 morale and -10% iniative to the enemy. Duration 10 turns (lvl/2)
A flat ability but makes the howl very potent right from the start.
Embalmer (Kaspar)
Double effect from Healing tent, both healing and attacking (Plague tent). At level 20 this is 200 (5hp/lvl)
Might be useful with high-level creatures when creeping, but totally not too much hp.Plague tent effectively doubles the effect.
Reanimator (Vladimir, Nicolai)
+5 Spellpower for Raise Dead (+1/4th lvl rounded up). This becomes 150 HP with Expert summining magic.
At level 20 the extra HP raised equals one bone dragon, 3 liches or 5 vampires. Only useful if this ability is what stands between raising dead on a stack once or twice.
Souldrinker (Raven)
The wakness spell causes -7 defence at all targets (-1/lvl rounded up)
Master of curses is a must to use this ability effective. It is not cumulative but can be combined with both Vulnerability (Master of Pain) and Master of Fire (1/2 defence), weakening the defences much for high level creatures. Starting with destructive magic is more of a handicap though, so totally Raven comes out really bad here.
Soulhunter (Naadir, Giovanni)
Every killed enemy unit stack gives you 20 ghosts max (1 per level, capped at number of original stack). Ghosts disappear at end of battle.
A tactical ability as it gives you new troops during battle you can use to block and attack enemy with (to avoid retaliation on your permanent ones). The incorporeal trait makes them last even longer. Great for creeping with few units.
Spellwringer (Zoltan)
Chance to block a enemy spell for further casting. Chances are for another enemy of equal level is 50%, 33%, 25%, 20%, 16% for respectively 1-5 level spells.
Can be protective against powerful warlocks, and together with Magic resistance it can bugger the enemys casting, but still I don’t see the very usefulness against another hero who don’t base his whole strategy around one spell (what that should be?)
Vampire Princess (Lucretia)
All Vampire(Lords) get +10 attack/defence.
Chance of neutral troops of this type joining hero is raised by +20%.
Vampire Lords are among the most useful troops as they both are very fast and can heal themselves. The extra defence makes them take less damage and the extra attack will give the units more HP back. The Vampire(Lords) therefore are less dependent of the “Raise dead” as they may heal themselves even easier.
Zombie Lord (Orson)
All (Plague) Zombies) get +10 attack/defence.
Chance of neutral troops of this type joining hero is raised by +20%.
What to say. A pretty useless ability since zombies are lame units both low initiative and slow. If you have Orson, he could always take the zombies and go creeping by himself to make some use of the ability.
Campaign Abilities:
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Death Lord (Markal): All neutral stacks undeads will join hero. 90% chance of stack joins.
My personal favourites are both Deirdres Banshee, as it is powerful already from the very start, and Naadirs Soulhunter, as it opens up for intelligent tactics which can be both fun and useful
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executor
Famous Hero
Otherworldly Ambassador
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posted March 21, 2007 12:30 AM |
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Edited by executor at 15:49, 21 Mar 2007.
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Quote:
Gate Keeper (Nymus, Biara)
+20% extra gated creatures. (+1%/lvl)
This ability should be combined with all other multipliers since they are makes it even more potent. Expert Gating a with Gate Keeper at level 20 with Gate Master (Leadership) and Swarming Luck (Luck, 15-35%) will with good luck give 0.4 x 1.2 x 1.2 x 2 = 1,152 that is 15% more creatures than the original stack!
Since patch 1.4 gating bonuses are additive. Then at level 20 we get: (0.4+0.2+0.2)x2 = 1.6, 60% more than original stack. Even better. With probability 15-35%, of course. Otherwise 0.8 of original. I would add aldo infernal loom for 0.9/1.8. It's cheap and good  .
Quote:
Campaign Abilities:
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Aura of Swiftness (Agrael, Sovereign): +40% to initative
Unfortunatelly not. +20% only.
You should add that on Kaspar tent indeed heals then 200 hp total, but the bonus is 100.
Is Lucretia's specia really named Temtress? Thought it was Jezebeth's...
Despite these minor errors:
Very nice work, Darkeye
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Understanding is a three-edged sword.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted March 21, 2007 01:43 AM |
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Quote:
Since patch 1.4 gating bonuses are additive. Then at level 20 we get: (0.4+0.2+0.2)x2 = 1.6, 60% more than original stack. Even better. With probability 15-35%, of course. Otherwise 0.8 of original. I would add aldo infernal loom for 0.9/1.8. It's cheap and good .
Are you sure? The 2.1 manual specifically states they are multiplicative. Which is 55.2% instead of 40% on lvl 15.
Quote:
Aura of Swiftness (Agrael, Sovereign): +40% to initative
Perhaps a bit boring, but I prefer the Gate Keeper, trusting in the sheer numbers of gated creatures.
Rolf!  That's a good one!
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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phinex
Adventuring Hero
for sylvan
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posted March 21, 2007 03:35 AM |
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Gating bonuses are additive.And the formula is 0.4*2+0.2+0.2
not (0.4+0.2+0.2)x2 = 1.6
Swarm gating only effect the basic number.
And Elivn,it fixed in the 2.1a manual.
Your can download one and make sure it.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted March 21, 2007 09:12 AM |
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Bah, whatever the formula would be, Nymus' bonus sucks. : (
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Darkeye
Promising
Famous Hero
of the Deep
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posted March 21, 2007 12:32 PM |
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Edited by Darkeye at 12:41, 21 Mar 2007.
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Thanks for the replies guys!
Executor: I will fix the errors. I forgot to swap Lucretias "Vampire Princess" for Jezebeths Temptress. And how could I forget the infernal loom(s)?
Are you sure about embalmer (have you seen it in gameplay?) In the manual it says +5hp / level.
Elvin: If you thought I preferred +20% gated creatures instead of +40% iniative, you misunderstood me.
The preferences I have are those of the normal heroes, campaign heroes excluded, as most of these are overpowered for normal gameplay (but can be fun if the map is suited for it).
Doomforge: Which demon-ability do you prefer?
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted March 21, 2007 12:42 PM |
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Abilities.. hmm.. Well, to be honest I like Alastor's guaranteed confusion+additional burning effect, if he started with dark magic he might be good. Unfortunately, the "poor creeping" thing triggers here, so you're kinda forced to take Deleb unless the mines are guarded by level 2 creatures or so.
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Darkeye
Promising
Famous Hero
of the Deep
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posted March 21, 2007 12:47 PM |
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I agree that he should start with basic dark-magic as he after all starts with a lvl 3spell. I also like Alastor as he can creep easier agianst casters.
Regarding Gatting: In the 2.1 manual it is clearly stated that the bonuses are multiplied, not added, but during gameplay I have experienced higher gated stacks, so what is the right answer?
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ZombieLord
Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
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posted March 21, 2007 01:15 PM |
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Great thread, DarkEye
Quote:
I agree that he should start with basic dark-magic as he after all starts with a lvl 3spell. I also like Alastor as he can creep easier agianst casters.
Many Inferno heroes start with the worse skills suited for them.
Extremely bad:
Alastor - Sorcery? wtf? He should start with Dark Magic, and Sorcery doesn't even work with Mass Spells!
Jezebeth - Sorcery... again. But Magic Insight may prove good some times, say you have Phantom Forces or Circle of Winter (which does pretty much damage for a Demon Lord, believe me)
Bad:
Grawl - Destructive... not a very good skill for Demon Lords, though it has a high % chance to pop up
Why had Nival make Demon Lords so cr*ppy and Deleb so overpowered? Is it to encourage us all to play with Deleb? Nival are DELEB LOVERS!
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feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted March 21, 2007 01:23 PM |
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I agree with Zombielord. No dark magic hero? Only Deleb and Grok are playable
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Darkeye
Promising
Famous Hero
of the Deep
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posted March 21, 2007 01:25 PM |
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The heroes starting skills are are chapter for itself. Some are handicapped from the start, beginning with a skill you normally never would go for, like destructive magic for demon-lords or necros or sorcery for alastor and jezebeth as you say. Some heroes are blocked from chasing the ultimate skill and must be modded to do so, while others, like Grok two abilities on its path. It was pretty easy to get Urgash call with Grok last time I played (with some help from witch huts).
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted March 21, 2007 01:44 PM |
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Nival hates demonlords : (
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted March 21, 2007 02:37 PM |
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Quote:
And Elvin,it fixed in the 2.1a manual.
Your can download one and make sure it.
I have downloaded it, that's where I saw how it works.
Quote:
Elvin: If you thought I preferred +20% gated creatures instead of +40% iniative, you misunderstood me.
The preferences I have are those of the normal heroes, campaign heroes excluded, as most of these are overpowered for normal gameplay (but can be fun if the map is suited for it).
You are right, I dislike imbalanced specials too. It feels like cheating.
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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phinex
Adventuring Hero
for sylvan
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posted March 21, 2007 03:02 PM |
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Quote:
Regarding Gatting: In the 2.1 manual it is clearly stated that the bonuses are multiplied, not added, but during gameplay I have experienced higher gated stacks, so what is the right answer?
http://www.heroesofmightandmagic.com/downloads/manual/2.1a_changelog_en.txt
At 2.1a manual it has been fixed.
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executor
Famous Hero
Otherworldly Ambassador
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posted March 21, 2007 03:48 PM |
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Quote:
Are you sure about embalmer (have you seen it in gameplay?) In the manual it says +5hp / level.
Sorry, an idiotic error of mine here. Edited this above.
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Understanding is a three-edged sword.
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Darkeye
Promising
Famous Hero
of the Deep
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posted March 21, 2007 03:53 PM |
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Then we are pretty agreed on the rules
The gating is additative, and kaspars medicin tricks stays (although it should have been 300 hp at level 20)
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meff
Adventuring Hero
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posted December 12, 2007 05:10 PM |
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Edited by meff at 17:11, 12 Dec 2007.
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Demon lords are pure crap Nymus ruined with magic resistance! Can't even get Urgash's Call ! Grawl with destructive magic even doesn't get any spellpower on the levels got max 13 in my games and WHY THE HECK Alastor and this Jezebeth has Sorcerery!?!?!?! Grok is great , i think Deleb is rather stupid cause she can't have triple ballista and Marbas's ability is useless  
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted December 12, 2007 07:17 PM |
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Hello First of all do not resurrect old threads for no particular reason. Secondly be sure to be on topic or what you say is correct. Demonlords can be awesome and getting the ultimate is a bad idea almost anytime with any faction. Btw why do you say that Deleb can't get tripple ballista..? Marbas useless..? You really should play more.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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sith_of_ziost
Promising
Supreme Hero
Scouting the Multiverse
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posted December 12, 2007 09:59 PM |
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Yah beat me to it, Elvin.
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unixmage
Known Hero
Demon Slayer
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posted December 13, 2007 07:23 PM |
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OK I see this is an old thread that someone has resurrected but where can I find a similar thread for the other factions namely academy (the info is pretty good).
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