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| Thread: Luna, the self-reliant | |
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Demarest
Known Hero
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posted April 01, 2007 12:31 PM |
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Edited by Demarest at 12:41, 01 Apr 2007.
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Luna, the self-reliant
I figured I'd stop clogging the tactics thread with my love for Luna. Nevertheless, there are people out there that might view what I have to say about Luna as akin to what Inferno lovers will say about Demon farming. Well, it just so happens that I just encountered a fine example of a real world benefit with Luna.
It was a bad start. Random starting hero gave me Clancy with no Elves. Ufretin was my native hero in the Tavern. The upside was that my foreign hero in the tavern was Aine, so at least I'd be getting the gold bonus and some speed six flying fodder. As soon as I hired Aine, Luna appeared in the Tavern! Some of you might recall that I've said that I don't care who you're playing; If you see Luna, BUY HER. I've even gone so far as to say that even if she only has one Fairy, she will do damage the likes of which might seem unfathomable.
Day one, Luna scouted to the southeeast, off the beaten path, in hopes of finding fights she could spare my main and/or army the trouble. She didn't find any, but another scout hit a Redwood Observatory to reveal a Gold Mine (GM) guarded by a Horde of Zombies (Zs). With such a bad start (Ufretin was actually my best option), there was no way I could settle that earlier than day four and even that early, it would be with sizeable losses. Luna had already moved, putting her two days away from the GM. Day two, she spent heading in that direction. Consider the following:
overview of my latest game
It's day three. Luna has only the ONE Fairy she started off with and she is in range of the Horde of Zs. Now, the nice thing about Luna is that she starts off with the Fire Wall (FW) spell and a specialty that does double damage with it. With a starting power of three, that's three times ten plus ten for having Basic Fire Magic (BFM), times two for just being Luna. That's 80 damage to start with! Since she has BFM, the casting cost is reduced to six. And since she starts off with three Knowledge, she can cast FIVE FWs before having to recharge. That's 400 points of damage between recharges. But that's not all. The trick with Luna is to ONLY have one stack of creatures and that they be weak. Why?
beginning of first round
Your weak state causes enemies to split into seven stacks. This effectively can multiply your FW by seven. In this case, it won't quite be seven, but only because Zs are slow. The largest stack of Zs is eight deep, for 160 hit points. Not bad since being just one larger would mean needing to walk through three FWs instead of just two.
When using FW, you will find that enemies in front of you will approach you, enemies above you will tend to walk down to your level (one row above you) before proceeding forward, and enemies below you would rather walk forward and then upwards. This, and the terrain of the battlefield are important when choosing WHERE to place FW, as enemies below you will try to walk forward beyond some obstacle and attack you from behind the FW. Because enemies above tend to walk downward, I chose to place the first FW between me and enemies in front of me, in hopes that the top Zs might walk down and into it.
beginning of second round
They didn't. But two stacks still did walk through it, so that's two stacks that will only need to walk through a FW once more. It should be noted for FW virgins that FW last for two rounds only, regardless of what your spell power or any artifacts you have on are. While Zs are slow, which is actually a bad thing for Luna, they are undead, so no morale makes the battle VERY predictable. So we cast another FW just behind the Fairy as it will act as a stop gap for the small channel created by the location of battlefield obstacles. I then move my Fairy just far enough back to allow another stop gap FW to be cast next round. I can't just move behind it because she would be in range of three Z stacks. Two would die from their second FW, but one would survive and kill the Fairy.
beginning of third round
Here's where things get interesting. As you can see, some of the bottom Zombies are walking forward just as predicted. All we need to do here is cast another FW and move to where the Zs will be most tempted to walk through them. In this case, casting another one at the other end of the little channel provided by the obstacles works. Then we just move up one hex (forward) so that the third Z stack won't try to attack us from behind.
beginning of fourth round
Is this Heroes of Might and Magic III or Lemmings?  The top stack only needs to hit one FW, whereas the bottom two need to hit two... or both hexes of one! That's right: In addition to doing double damage, potentially times seven as the enemy will split into seven stacks, times two for the two rounds it lasts, it can also do two more times damage if you can convince a stack to walk through both hexes! Depending on your version of Heroes, this doesn't count for double width creatures moving through the same hex "twice." I seem to remember it working that way, but in Complete, it does not. Anyways, cast the FW this turn where you see the orange circles and then move to the green circle. The second Zs will walk through both hexes as it's the only way to attack you THIS round. The bottom Zombies did as well. Since they have to walk five hexes to reach you, it's possible that they could've only walked through one. In which case, you next round move four hexes away in a position where they HAVE to walk through the FW again to reach you.
the end result
Yes, that ONE Fairy took out 51 Zombies Had I not hired Aine first day, this battle would've effectively tripled my Kingdom's daily income, all for the price of a hero, which we all would've bought anyways. Might as well make it one that can do this much damage  What makes the deal sweeter is that she leveled up and was offered Advanced Fire Magic (AFM). Once you have AFM, your FW becomes three hexes. This allows Luna to hide along the left edge of the battlefield in Imp Crucibles or even just against fliers. Not only that, but upgrading from BFM to AFM will give your FW +20 damage (+10*2 for being Luna). And since I have already seen a magic well in my territory, she will be able to go recharge and find new battles, allowing my main even greater mobility, without having to build a Mage Guild just so she can recharge.
For those interested in the finer points of Luna, I have created a guide for her on GameFAQs.com. It's under Armageddon's Blade as Luna will not be a hero in your game unless your game has Conflux capabilities. Or if referencing external materials isn't allowed on this forum, and others are interested in the strategies without having to do a bunch of testing themselves, I can post more information here.
Happy FWing
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waffen
Tavern Dweller
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posted April 02, 2007 09:57 AM |
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I played with Luna and find out that she is very effective against level 1 and 2 walkers. If not undead units, spirit of oppresion helps a lot. Had some problems in cripts with wamps.
If you can give us some more examples, how to use Luna effective, please do so
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted April 02, 2007 10:00 AM |
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Try the same with Gurnisson, his balista and a few goblins (or 3 Rocs). His advantage is, he doesn't have to look for a well to refill mana..
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Demarest
Known Hero
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posted April 02, 2007 10:55 AM |
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Edited by Demarest at 12:30, 02 Apr 2007.
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Quote:
Try the same with Gurnisson, his balista and a few goblins (or 3 Rocs). His advantage is, he doesn't have to look for a well to refill mana..
Yes, I realize that discussion of magic heroes isn't prohibited, but will be promptly run off 3 Rocs? I apologize if I was ambiguous in my topic: I wasn't playing Conflux. The point with Luna is that she is self reliant even if you're not playing Conflux and even if she's not one of your first heroes of the week and only comes with one Fairy. And I'm sorry, but 6-9 damage a turn from a Ballista with only 24 shots doesn't compare.
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I played with Luna and find out that she is very effective against level 1 and 2 walkers. If not undead units, spirit of oppresion helps a lot. Had some problems in cripts with wamps.
If you can give us some more examples, how to use Luna effective, please do so
YES, the Spirit of Oppression is one of the best artifacts for Luna (Orb of Tempestuous Fire being another). It helps her manage the enemy better.
As for examples of how to use Luna effectively, it would be faster to cover the few occassions she's NOT effective. Since you mentioned Crypt, you don't want a weak Luna taking on a Crypt until she can do a 300 point FW. Just as you don't want her walking into a Crucible with a FW weaker than 240 points. And so on, considering the maximum possible per-stack hit points. Nor should you try a Griffin Conservatory that has Royal Griffins unless your creature stack is at least as fast.
Speaking of which, Luna doesn't HAVE to use Fairies. Whatever she uses, it should be one WEAK stack, a single hex wide creature that can avoid the FW themselves. For example, the Fairy can fly over it, so it's possible to cast it first, then fly over it. Or in one game I played, I found a Pandora's Box with 35 Fire Elementals. They can walk through it. Though you'd need to be careful with that becuase they're not weak, but they ARE slow.
Some things to keep in mind: Never attack Gremlins unless you have some for of direct damage to take out a possible Master stack before laying a FW down. By that same token, you need to be cautious when attacking Air Elementals, Water Elementals and Giants. In other words, stacks that are not archers, but could have archers. It should be noted that the above (not including Master Gremlins) are immune to Forgetfulness, Blind, Hypnotize, Berserk, etc. So you WILL have to be able to direct damage a potential archer stack. The upside to that is that because they split into seven stacks, even their archer stack will have relatively low hit points.
By the same token, you don't want to attack creatures with fire immunity or level two spell immunity. Unless you have the Orb of Vulnerability. Don't attack Pit Lords and if you attack Pit Fiends, any Pit Lord stack present MUST die first. Not too hard considering they are faster. Reason being that if one stack dies, another could resurrect the fallen stack, which would be able to attack your creature BEFORE the FW hurts them. Don't attack Genies either as any Masters on the battlefield could cast a spell that would make them immune to FW.
Other than that, she can take on anything she has the Power to. Which means that throughout the game, you want her to get as much Power as possible. Buy it from a School of Magic. Give her Power boosting artifacts. The sooner she can get up into the hundreds, she can start taking building on by herself. Later in the very game I posted, she took out lots of Obsidian Gargoyles. It was a dangerous venture being that they're speed nine and capable of morale. But she was able to clear them and shortly thereafter gained another level. She got Expert Fire Magic and both levels brought +1 Power, so she was already doing 200 point FW's.
Fighting against double width creatures, cast the FW in such a way that there will be a one hex gap between your creature and FW. Otherwise, they won't even move. IF the enemy is strong enough to withstand one wall, on the second turn, you can fill in the gap with a FW and they will still approach, taking damage from both FWs.
I've already mentioned going for nothing but AFM to start with. As soon as you get the 3 hex wall, you can take on fliers more reliably. Plus it makes it easier to plug up gaps in the terrain. AFTER you have AFM, pick up Water Magic if you can. Also, if Luna is in your employ, work towards building a level three Guild Mage and visiting any and all third level Shrine of Magic Thought. The sooner she can get Expert Forgetfulness, the sooner she can take on archer stacks by herself. Though never a Medusa Stores unless you also have the Armor of the Damned. Also, I already mentioned the way the AI likes to sneak in from behind from underneath the wall. ONCE did I see somebody come in from behind from above. Normally, they move downward first and then forward.
I think that about sums it up. Only other thing I could add is don't listen to the naysayers. Anybody that suggests that 2500 for Luna and even 2000 for a Mage Guild so she can recharge isn't worth it, hasn't fully realized how damaging she can be with NO support. Anybody that doubts can take any map and add a Pandora's Box and/or timed event to make sure they get Luna day one. Dock yourself the 2500 gold just for definitive proof that she's the most cost effective hero in terms of self-reliance.
I'm going to go start a game where I choose Luna as my starting hero and maybe report back with various "way out of her league" conquests
[EDIT] for waffen
First map I created saw lots of Earth Elementals (EEs) guarding a Learning Stone the she was able to reach day one.
world map
There were 29, split almost entirely in stacks of four. Perfect for a double wall. This next pic shows the start of round three. I'll cast a FW where the orange circles are and move to the green circle, killing the lone EE and letting all the rest walk through both hexes of this new FW. Let's see Gurnisson do that day one
beginning of third round
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted April 02, 2007 01:16 PM |
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Edited by angelito at 13:17, 02 Apr 2007.
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...And I'm sorry, but 6-9 damage a turn from a Ballista with only 24 shots doesn't compare....
You have much to learn young Padawan..
First of all, balistas have endless shots.
Second, damage is higher than 6-9, and it only takes a few things to bring Gurni to expert artillery, which gives him 2 shots a round and double damage!
But maybe this is again an example (like might/magic or creatures/capitol) where u first have to try yourself before u believe what I mean..
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Demarest
Known Hero
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posted April 02, 2007 02:28 PM |
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Quote:
Second, damage is higher than 6-9, and it only takes a few things to bring Gurni to expert artillery, which gives him 2 shots a round and double damage!
But maybe this is again an example (like might/magic or creatures/capitol) where u first have to try yourself before u believe what I mean..
Nah. I know Gurnisson is a good hero. But he doesn't compare to Luna in the self-reliance department as she doesn't need anything to be the killer she is.
Actually, I'm still looking forward to your input on my critique my technique thread. I'm ready to take the next steps in that regard. I want to learn. But you'll never hear me stop singing Luna's praises
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted April 02, 2007 03:31 PM |
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The problem I have with Luna is, after a "tough" fight (or 2-3 "normal" fights), she is helpless until she either finds a town (with mageguild built) or a well. So in the first days, she runs around your starting town, and may refill mana. But what u do, when she is about 4 or 5 days away from your town? She turns into a scout / collector and that's it. Unlike Gurni.....
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Demarest
Known Hero
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posted April 02, 2007 10:04 PM |
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Quote:
The problem I have with Luna is, after a "tough" fight (or 2-3 "normal" fights), she is helpless until she either finds a town (with mageguild built) or a well. So in the first days, she runs around your starting town, and may refill mana. But what u do, when she is about 4 or 5 days away from your town?
Because she has the potential of being stranded with no magic points, do NOT flag that gold mine without losses when your current army could not do so without incurring sizeable losses? That's ludicrous. She's the only hero I know of in the game that doesn't require any creatures (she had ONE Fairy) to exact major damage. You can play whatever game you want however you want AND have a scout that can rip apart creatures well out of her league. It's all gain.
"Don't flag a gold mine day three when your kingdom's income is 500 gold because eventually you're going to have to recharge." LOL!
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She turns into a scout / collector and that's it. Unlike Gurni.....
This thread is ABOUT Luna as a scout. What other scout can rip apart 29 EEs day one? I'd like an answer to that one.
Must every thread here degenerate into "It's not might, so it's not right?"
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She is a nice hero to have in the beginning i guess, if you can beat some stuff down without losses.
Her usefulness isn't only in the beginning though. If you look at my lots of EE example, you'll see that because she can take on fights well out of her league, she tends to gain experience in large chunks. I'll never forget this one map I played with her as my starting hero. In the second week, she was roasting lots of Mighty Gorgons to get the Orb of Impetuous Fire. At which point, she was knocking off Dwarven holds on her own. Meanwhile, my "army" was Firebirds being commanded by Labetha, who starts with Earth Magic. One of her first fights got her the Resurrection scroll. She had Advanced Earth and was knocking off a Dragon Utopia day one of week four. By this point, I had three cities and the areas around them almost completely cleared out and I hadn't purchased a single creature except the Firebirds. Which means I could buy them all and crush anything in any direction. I wish I could've held onto that map so you could see all the damage she was doing. For FREE.
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Ecoris
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted April 03, 2007 05:37 PM |
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The ballista deals 2-3 points of damage plus another 2-3 points for each point of attack skill the hero has.
So Gurnisson starts having a base damage of 10-15. (Notice that he won't get another shot per round until he gets advanced artillery).
But you also have to add the damage bonus from the attack skill. The ballista's attack skill starts at 14 with Gurnisson. This will give you a great damage bonus. And you always have the chance of dealing double damage.
Surely Luna is a good hero. She's could be a valuable secondary hero early in the game, actually I didn't know the damage was doubled. I thought the bonus was the usual one for a hero specialising in a spell.
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pacifist
Famous Hero
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posted April 26, 2007 11:22 AM |
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Nice topic!
I remember the last heroes3 offline contest where the winner beat the map in only 10 days on impossible and that was only because he found Luna in the tavern (fishing heroes in tavern was allowed in the rules). She was the only hero that could beat lots of ogre lords blocking access to a computer castle. When he made the walkthrough he just said "and the ogres died in the flames" . The firewall spell is very strong and very cost effective. I wish arrows could be burned as well . If I see Luna in the tavern i will always hire her but it's not the case of Gurnisson.
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SwampLord
Supreme Hero
Lord of the Swamp
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posted April 26, 2007 02:46 PM |
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Personally, I prefer magic. Might is cool, but nothing beats watching firey death engulf your enemies.
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ElectricBunny
Known Hero
Pimp My Box
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posted December 27, 2008 09:19 AM |
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I'm very sorry but THIS DOESN"T WORK.
It worked at first, but...
1) THE GOBLINS STRODE AROUNDTHE FW, and
2) THE WOLF RAIDERS WAITED UNTIL MY MANA RAN OUT AS I WAITED IN A CORNER.
This may be a patch or something that allows creatures to view the FW as a rock or something from time to time, so they ignore it (though it worked perfectly at first)...
its like the goblins actually got SMARTER!! 
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Nikita
Famous Hero
Meepo is underrated
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posted December 27, 2008 09:48 AM |
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The example with Luna,1 pixie and FW was great,now take same ammount of harpies or wolf raiders and beat them,hoping they or any other creature will not get any morale.Gurnisson can get lvl 3 day 2-3(even 1 sometimes),which means ballista is unstopable.Not only u get 2 shots with double dmg,u also can use dumbness of AI to ur help.AI always attacks ballista if he cant rich u(or if he isnt close enaugh to u),ballista has loots of HP...gg for AI.
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I havent lost my mind... I have it backed up somewhere 8-)
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MagniBronzeb...
Adventuring Hero
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posted January 09, 2009 12:02 PM |
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Quote:
I'm very sorry but THIS DOESN"T WORK.
It worked at first, but...
1) THE GOBLINS STRODE AROUNDTHE FW, and
2) THE WOLF RAIDERS WAITED UNTIL MY MANA RAN OUT AS I WAITED IN A CORNER.
This may be a patch or something that allows creatures to view the FW as a rock or something from time to time, so they ignore it (though it worked perfectly at first)...
its like the goblins actually got SMARTER!!
I guess it were normal goblins. With a friend we realized that hobgoblins are dumber than goblins. I dislike negative upgrades.
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citrusmind
Hired Hero
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posted January 11, 2009 03:53 AM |
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what makes Gurnisson any better than another hero like Christian who starts with a ballista?
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Sub_Zero
Adventuring Hero
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posted January 11, 2009 04:44 AM |
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gurnisson have 4 in attack at start and usually gets attack when he levels up wich means his ballista will deal more damage.
also barbarians gets bether skills in general. the only ballista-hero i would consider bether on random maps is pyre because she starts with logistics
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Ecoris
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted January 11, 2009 11:39 AM |
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The ballista deals 2-3 points of damage for each point of attack skill and then another 2-3 points. So Christian's ballista starts out dealing 6-9 points of damage while Gurnisson's ballista deals 10-15 points of damage.
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