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| Thread: ToH point sistem |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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vesuvius
Hero of Order
Honor Above all Else
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posted May 20, 2007 07:18 PM |
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you cannot get negative points for a win. it bottoms out at 0.
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Jinxer
Legendary Hero
*****
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posted May 20, 2007 07:42 PM |
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I still dont get it....
Lets put this in a a different light. Lets say Pro NBA BasketBall Team decides to play a freshman Junior High School basketBall team. And the Pro team beats the Highschool team 156 to 18. And after the game the Pro team complains cause there ranking didnt go up???? The Pro team was expected to dominate...what does it prove that they squashed an inferior team? NOTHING. And what is Rankings supposed to prove. SKILL in Game!
Vesuvius formula is GENIUS! It always has been. It makes sure that players play other players within there skill level, and makes sure that those PRO players dont exploit and pick on the weaker players.
Betruger - Felun - Al fight amongst yourselves.... beat up on each other learn and improve from all your greatness and wisdom, and quit worring about the easy wins agasint us lowely highschool players. And as you guys always tell me... " QUIT your WHINING! " 
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Destro23
Promising
Famous Hero
Keeper of GrongGrong
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posted May 21, 2007 12:38 AM |
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I think there is a major point thats being missed throughout this thread. Its really not about playing lowly opponent #6 and not getting anything, or playing lowly player #7 and losing 80 points.
Its about keeping people playing the game. I agree that it does not show good ratings if every brand new 1000 point player comes in and donates 5 points to each of the vets.
The point here is that at any given time a player can enter the chatroom, log onto msn and only see 1-2-3 players available to fight. We all know that H5 is a more luck based game than any of its predecessors. PLayers of moderately balanced skill, or even a player of far greater skill can be beaten with the proper luck falling into his opponents lap. I don't really care about my points, your points, or his points at all. I enjoy watching myself climb ladders, and sure I don't like losing points. But what I like even less is logging on to find noone available for a game.
It was different in the past. There was hundreds of active H3 players of varying skill levels, if you couldn't immediately find a player of similar skill level right now, chances are within 30 mins you would. Now you may or not coordinate a time to play with someone of equal skill as yourself in 2-3 days?
This is the reason I suggest a min point bonus. To keep players playing. And to keep new players active and not bored without a game.
The theory about the ranking system not showing the true skill of the player with a minimal bonus point doesn't really hold true to me now. Yes again.. in the past it did. But today how do you have an accurate "World ranking system" if
Betruger plays felunio and ghasteater 100% of the time
I play Jinxer and Cycleguy 100% of the time
Jinxer plays me and SQ79 100% of the time
(Disclaimer : These are not to suggest this is the case! Just examples!)
following the above example I think the integrity of a ranking system is already somewhat skewed. don't you?
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cosmin
Known Hero
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posted May 21, 2007 01:25 AM |
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Quote:
Betruger plays felunio and ghasteater 100% of the time
I play Jinxer and Cycleguy 100% of the time
Jinxer plays me and SQ79 100% of the time
(Disclaimer : These are not to suggest this is the case! Just examples!)
following the above example I think the integrity of a ranking system is already somewhat skewed. don't you?
Hello Destro.
It does make a lot of sense what you're talking about, and I support your claims.
As I've said, Heroes’ funs are less present on the battle-field. Because of that, a Regular Tournament has a lot to suffer...
I've experience that and of course I had complains about the "damn" formula used on Regular Tournament (I'm talking about LRH).
So I used a plane ranking system for the open tournaments, and yet I've discovered that no matter the amount of players involved into a specific competition, as long as you "let them choose all the time who to play" they will choose!
The worst part is that a weak player then will have no desire to play a good player, because he will get far more points from playing only noobs. A new player's desire is NOT TO DOWNGRADE A GOOD PLAYER, but to earn points. So at the end, all good players will have no opponents at all. Today they cannot play because they get 0 points... tomorrow they may not play because no one will challenge them anymore.
I've even heard "I won't play you so I can get my Blue Drago!!!"
Wouldn’t this thing be bad? Wouldn’t this change downgrade the value of that tournament?
I might be the bad guy here, but see... experiences shows you the way to go all the time. So what an individual disagrees? He all the time will have into balance his situation on one side, the rest on the other. If you run a Tournament then you have no choice but to choose something as equal for all as possible. And unlike a player, 1 small mistake done won't hurt "your ranking" but will ruin the integrity of that tournament.
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Jinxer
Legendary Hero
*****
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posted May 21, 2007 01:26 AM |
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Well for example I just checked, and Betruger has 1800 points which means he can play any players 1300 points and higher and still get 5 points for a win. So that leaves him 28 players available to him. Not just Felun and Al.
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mklthrkngl
Known Hero
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posted May 21, 2007 07:54 AM |
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whatever dude
what heroes needs is a wet bar. in Mikes world all heroes games have a wet bar. woooo wooo!@!!!
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Elit
Famous Hero
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posted May 21, 2007 09:06 AM |
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cosmin: Can you explain simple (not 5 pages formula)why minimal points per win (5) is bad and how this will destroy all sistem ?
I know how work chess sistem but we are in different situation. All active (1 game per day,5 per week for minimum)players for h3+h5 from WC/LRH/ToH are less from 1 chess turnament. Maybe adapt sistem can up activity and fix part for -->low game plays.
Psychology is very important. All players play for win--->reward. Nobies want to play for "knowledge" against high rank players...but zero points per win not support it.
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Destro23
Promising
Famous Hero
Keeper of GrongGrong
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posted May 21, 2007 08:47 PM |
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But jinxer, how often do you expect that 28 (active?) players can arrange adequate times to play a game? I know I have about 5 opponents myself that are reliably on at the same time I am.
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Jinxer
Legendary Hero
*****
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posted May 21, 2007 08:55 PM |
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Giving Emperors and Lords 5 points for every newbie they kill will not increase activity. We need more newbies to increase activity.. The fact that you guys are Lords and Emperors shows that you guys are already active.
I think you guys will have less trouble finding games if you werent so picky. For example... I asked Felun for a game couple weeks ago, ( before I found out what a stuck on himself Jerk he was ) and suggested BattleZone. He Refused cause he wasnt familiar with the map. LMAO.. Emperors and Lords should be skillfull enough to play and adapt to any map. But I suspect that most if not all of the Lords and Emperors only got where they are because they only play in there comfort zone with maps and plans on maps they can control.
Betruger on the other hand... played BattleZone blind vs. me and still beat me. So I gotta give kudos to him. That shows true skill.
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feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted May 21, 2007 09:01 PM |
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First of all i dont see anything wrong with the fact that i didnt play with you on a map that you have played so many times and i havent played once.
Second is that it wasnt the main reason i didn't play with you on this map. I don't like big maps generally. I rarely play them.
Third is that i do play blind maps and in fact i have more diversified map record than you do so can you at last finish your cheap talk with maps?
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Elit
Famous Hero
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posted May 21, 2007 09:49 PM |
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Quote:
Giving Emperors and Lords 5 points for every newbie they kill will not increase activity. We need more newbies to increase activity.. The fact that you guys are Lords and Emperors shows that you guys are already active.
This 5 points is not to make Lords/Emperos more active. Its reward for play with nobies. This will help for more games and up skill new players. When reward is zero 99% from Lords/Emperors will decline game.
BTW i have alot games for zero points so dont tell me i'm greedy...but its make me feel like "i waste my time".
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Istari
Known Hero
Truth Teller, ToH
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posted May 21, 2007 10:26 PM |
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I really can't figure out the harm of giving a minimum of 5 points for a win. I understand Ves's point that it might not help much, but it definately won't hurt. New players like myself may have an easier time getting games and thats a good thing. The only concern is a player pading their stats by only playing new players, but that player is taking the gamble of losing a lot of points to one of those new players.
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Opinions are immunity to being told you're wrong.
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cosmin
Known Hero
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posted May 22, 2007 01:07 AM |
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Quote:
Giving Emperors and Lords 5 points for every newbie they kill will not increase activity. We need more newbies to increase activity.. The fact that you guys are Lords and Emperors shows that you guys are already active.
Ideed true.
It will just distance the "Lords" and "Emperors" as points and that's all. (i used the words inside marks because at some point i told you they won't exist as Ranks if 5 points limitation is used).
Here's what i think would help you understand:
Suppose we have 3000 players registered.
If we play on "Top" system, that means each player will be assigned on one place only (1,2,3.....2000, .....2999, 3000). On this case the best player playing against the last one will bring same number of points for each one of them.
This is fixed point system.
The Toh formula added the ranks inside calculation, by creating a proportion between the rank you are assigned to and the rank where your opponent is assigned.
5 points limitation practically excludes the proportion.
To exist, the rankings system must work different for each rank.
But this case will actually make LORD and EMPEROR to work at MAXIMUM of Legionnaire (this 5).
So, as I’ve said: if this would be done, YOU MUST EXCLUDE Lord and Emperor (the ranks), and keep as higher rank the LEGIONNAIRE.
Then your 5 points limitation is fine.
Otherwise, you make a false affirmation that u use PROPORTION CALCULATION for your tournament.
And Vesuvius would have to change the entire tournament (display, rankings, profiles, PRESTIGE points,) somehow the entire structure of the tournament to make this thing be reliable.
It works for tournaments where history and reliability doesn't matter.
Impossible for TOH! They have a name, they've existed here for a long time, and they have to keep not only the players, but the REPUTATION.
If I’m wrong, then Toh would change the system, but if I’m not, I guess you must admit that you look at the individual case and simply refuse to waste some of your time to calculate and see for yourself what the problem is.
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feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted May 22, 2007 03:26 AM |
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Hahaha
Quote:
cosmin: Can you explain simple (not 5 pages formula)why minimal points per win (5) is bad and how this will destroy all sistem ?
I guess Cosim you would have to explain me even shorter because i have totally im totally lost in what you have said. But before you say anything could you answer my previous question: why formula
max[points you currently get,5]
wouldn't solve all this what is so complicated for you (and me to understand) With this formula there is no need for any new proportions or whatsoever, i guess.
I can understand if Ves wants to keep things he introduced long time ago. Its his right, its his tourney. If he wants it to be unchanged no matter what people say so it be, but let he say it loud. Whole discussion is pointless if he made up his mind already.
And Cosim if you dont play toh anymore why do you make things difficult for people that actually play toh and want those changes(most of them does from what i can see)?
Instead of producing so long and hard to understand posts you could focus on new formula for us, players
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cosmin
Known Hero
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posted May 22, 2007 03:59 AM |
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Quote:
Hahaha
Quote:
cosmin: Can you explain simple (not 5 pages formula)why minimal points per win (5) is bad and how this will destroy all sistem ?
I guess Cosim you would have to explain me even shorter because i have totally im totally lost in what you have said. But before you say anything could you answer my previous question: why formula
max[points you currently get,5]
wouldn't solve all this what is so complicated for you (and me to understand) With this formula there is no need for any new proportions or whatsoever, i guess.
I can understand if Ves wants to keep things he introduced long time ago. Its his right, its his tourney. If he wants it to be unchanged no matter what people say so it be, but let he say it loud. Whole discussion is pointless if he made up his mind already.
And Cosim if you dont play toh anymore why do you make things difficult for people that actually play toh and want those changes(most of them does from what i can see)?
Instead of producing so long and hard to understand posts you could focus on new formula for us, players
Well what can i say here...
can you mixed up oil and water?? NO!
Then how in the world to mix up proportion with fixed numbers?!
Look! I don't wanna be rude here, but you are talking the biggest nonsense into this post... .
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feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted May 22, 2007 04:01 AM |
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There is no propotions involved...only points. Formula stays the same only the outcome is different coz it gets through max function. Doesnt it work like that?
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cosmin
Known Hero
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posted May 22, 2007 04:04 AM |
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Quote:
There is no propotions involved...only points. Formula stays the same only the outcome is different coz it gets through max function. Doesnt it work like that?
NO!
if i say to you: you go 5% of the entire road with each step you make (your steps are all the time the same) how in the world would you get 5 cm (fix mumber) when you don't know how long is the road???
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feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted May 22, 2007 04:08 AM |
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I dont get it.. Im telling you that current formula stays. You have your proportions and all and after outcome is calculated and lets say it is going to be 1 added to my ranking and 20 deducted from someone elses ranking those numbers go through another seperate functions lol i may not be a probrammer but i know some basics of it so dont treat me as an idiot pls.
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cosmin
Known Hero
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posted May 22, 2007 04:17 AM |
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Quote:
I dont get it.. Im telling you that current formula stays. You have your proportions and all and after outcome is calculated and lets say it is going to be 1 added to my ranking and 20 deducted from someone elses ranking those numbers go through another seperate functions lol i may not be a probrammer but i know some basics of it so dont treat me as an idiot pls.
Here is no programming my "friend". It's Mathematics. I am sure you're not idiot, but for sure you need to study some mathematics! lol
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Elit
Famous Hero
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posted May 22, 2007 06:42 AM |
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Quote:
Quote:
I dont get it.. Im telling you that current formula stays. You have your proportions and all and after outcome is calculated and lets say it is going to be 1 added to my ranking and 20 deducted from someone elses ranking those numbers go through another seperate functions lol i may not be a probrammer but i know some basics of it so dont treat me as an idiot pls.
Here is no programming my "friend". It's Mathematics. I am sure you're not idiot, but for sure you need to study some mathematics! lol
Its not only mathematics!
First your numbers are wrong. We are not 3k active players....its almost 30-40 and only 10-15 from them are real active.
Second: Give me resson why i need play vs oponents for zero points and risk to loss alot.
Maybe sistem is work fine before but situation now is different. Most of high rank players have option to play for noting or play to same 2-3 oponent.
How sistem work now is just not right. No 1 in this world (in real life) will accept deal for loss alot and win zero.
From what you wrote all time Cosmin i'm understand "sistem not tolerate games from Lords/Emperor vs nobies because its cheap win and for this they not deserve reward". But my problem is SISTEM NOT TOLERATE GAMES WHEN WE HAVE SO LESS ACTIVE PLAYERS. I just want to change it because now its not right. If we have 100-200-300 active members, curent sistem will work very well...but now its not work.
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