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| Thread: Necropolis line-up change anyone? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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dreddy
Hired Hero
HC frosh
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posted May 29, 2007 03:19 PM |
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Edited by dreddy at 15:19, 29 May 2007.
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Necropolis line-up change anyone?
Hey everyone,
When I started playing for Necros in HoMM V, I got a bit of a deva-ju seeing Necro's L7, the Bone/Shadow dragon so weak, in fact one of the weakest L7's. Even taking in account their +1 growth building, they are a poor unit at best.
So, why not go for a change? In TotE this most probably won't be implemented, but a man can dream. 
If you ever noticed, Necro's unuprgraded L6's look way more menacing than their upgraded counterparts. The Wraiths' toxic green aura looks like they've been stuffed with those neon glowing tubes they use for outside ads, whereas the unupgraded dudes kinda grow on you. They seem to represent the death it self, the Grim Reaper, so why not buff 'em up to L7? In case that goes thru, they probably don't need a better special: of course, Harm Touch's primary effect (killing at least one creature) isn't so great for an L7, but it also comes with debuffing all positive spells. Given Necro's already tremendous line-up, I'd be OK if Wraiths/Wights became an L7 WITHOUT any changes except for primary stats to bring them at least on below-par L7 level.
Then we need a new L6: so far I haven't seen this suggested, so here it goes - a spider, being mostly a tank/support unit, being inspired by Warcraft 3's adorable beasts. I'ma be surprised if no one thinks it'd be appropriate for those to represent the Necros. As for the special, this might be overkill, but what about one of the following uses of what spiders are associated with: their web. One is creating a fire-wall-like web protecting, say, the archers from fast walkers. The web would have it's (low) HP, which would have to be overcome before the enemy can blast thru. ALTERNATIVELY, if the walkers just blast thru it, they would be cursed with "Slow". Adding a vulnerability to fire to this web would make sense too. Another way to use a web would be to entangle FLYERS aka the Wolf Riders from the same-good-old W3. Entangled flyers take double damage from walkers while they are entangled (2-3 turns is enough) and can't move. Both abilities are activated.
Apart from those quite powerful specials the spideys should be a mediocre tank (NOT like the damn Treants), not overpowering the Necros.
Development of those ideas is strongly encouraged, thanks for replies in advance. 
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“... so when the devil wants to dance with you, you’d better say “never”, because the dance with the devil might last you forever.” /Immortal Technique/
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted May 29, 2007 05:11 PM |
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Quote:
Given Necro's already tremendous line-up, I'd be OK if Wraiths/Wights became an L7 WITHOUT any changes except for primary stats to bring them at least on below-par L7 level.
Noo.. you must be joking!!! Make them stronger, much stronger
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Then we need a new L6: so far I haven't seen this suggested, so here it goes - a spider, being mostly a tank/support unit, being inspired by Warcraft 3's adorable beasts. I'ma be surprised if no one thinks it'd be appropriate for those to represent the Necros.
Seeing as their symbol is the spider Goddess, not surprising. 
Quote:
As for the special, this might be overkill, but what about one of the following uses of what spiders are associated with: their web.
What about some tarantula poison instead? 
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bixie
Promising
Legendary Hero
my common sense is tingling!
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posted May 29, 2007 05:22 PM |
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how about this. no.
basically, your pissing and moaning about the game, wanting it to change so you like it. your ideals might not be everyone elses.
personally, i think the spectral dragon, with incorperablity and its +1 growth rate, is over powered. i pitted an archangel against two of these things and it wiped the floor with the heavenly sparrow!
i really think that putting wights and wraiths any higher would created a huge outcry from the fans. they were already pissed off enough about the lacking black knight from H3. they were also taken aback by the fact it was at such a high level!
the spider does represent nerco, but using WC3 as an example or template is not a wise move, again, because the fans first rejected the cartoon style of H5 because it looked like WC3, plus, and more referances, and Blizzard would come down on nival and ubi's heads so hard it would take the earth to move them.
some nice ideas, but no
____________
Love, Laugh, Learn, Live.
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ZombieLord
Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
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posted May 29, 2007 05:27 PM |
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Quote:
personally, i think the spectral dragon, with incorperablity and its +1 growth rate, is over powered
Spectrals don't have incorporeality
And even with +1 growth, they deal 30x3=90 damage per week, and have 160x3=480 hit points. While 2 Black Dragons deal 57.5x2=115 damage per week (more), have 240x2=480 hit points (the same) and have more speed (9 vs 7). Not to mention Fire Breath (which is better than Cursing Attack) and Magic Immunity
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted May 29, 2007 06:04 PM |
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I think we've had this discussion in several other threads. I will add that the Spectral Dragon isn't supposed to be as strong as the Black Dragon or the Arch Devil, not even 2/3 as strong, Necropolis has the advantage of numbers through Necromancy, more so than ever after 2.1 / 1.5. That is what makes this faction different from other factions. That also means that is a key point for this faction to have accessible units, and that's where the problem lies - with the absurd ressource demands of the Spectral Dragon dwelling - so that needs to be changed, but the unit itself is fine as it is.
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What will happen now?
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GenieLord
Honorable
Legendary Hero
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posted May 29, 2007 06:26 PM |
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Quote:
I think we've had this discussion in several other threads. I will add that the Spectral Dragon isn't supposed to be as strong as the Black Dragon or the Arch Devil, not even 2/3 as strong, Necropolis has the advantage of numbers through Necromancy, more so than ever after 2.1 / 1.5. That is what makes this faction different from other factions. That also means that is a key point for this faction to have accessible units, and that's where the problem lies - with the absurd ressource demands of the Spectral Dragon dwelling - so that needs to be changed, but the unit itself is fine as it is.
I agree.
Necropolis has a numeric advantage. It has very high growth, with great growth boosters, and it has Necromancy.
Take Dungeon, for example.
Almost all the creatures are overpowered for their level, but they have very low growth.
The faction is balanced, isn't it?
Necropolis is the opposite.
Many creatures are underpowered for their level, but they have very high growth and Necromancy.
This faction is balanced, too.
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dreddy
Hired Hero
HC frosh
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posted May 29, 2007 07:42 PM |
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One note, I didn't mean to imply Necros were out of balance, just that it'd be nice to replace the Shadow Dragons with something else. Everything alcibiades and GenieLord said is indeed true.
It's just a little bit frustrating to see not much of a change coming our way in TotE upgrades, and the Necro line-up has been the same for some time now (never mind HoMM 4 and its ridiculous placement of Demons and Undeads together).
@ bixie: Oh yes, placing Wraiths as an L7 would create an outcry, but so would any major change. Good thought about Blizzard going berserk if spideys are there though... I'd love to see units like those there nonetheless.
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“... so when the devil wants to dance with you, you’d better say “never”, because the dance with the devil might last you forever.” /Immortal Technique/
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bixie
Promising
Legendary Hero
my common sense is tingling!
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posted May 29, 2007 07:58 PM |
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Nercopolis is meant to be a swarming army, so everything, including its level 7, is weak but numerous.
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Love, Laugh, Learn, Live.
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ZombieLord
Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
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posted May 29, 2007 08:00 PM |
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Yes, it is a swarming army and numerous, but even with those high numbers, the level 7 is still weaker than others (as I explained above)
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Daystar
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Back from the Dead
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posted May 29, 2007 10:47 PM |
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Everything is really about how it is used. Eg: A Paladin could not defeat a dragon head on, but if it ran around propperly it deals a lot more damage and the dragon goes away. Poor dragon.
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How exactly is luck a skill?
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Erutan_Revol
Hired Hero
who stays in a treehouse
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posted May 30, 2007 02:45 AM |
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Well so we dont need any changes then
I dind want any though,perfectly suited with my spectral dragon
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feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted May 31, 2007 07:43 PM |
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I used to think that necro is very weak but im not so sure now. I always played as dungeon against them and without shackless they just couldnt win - from this point of view i assumed they were weak. But its not really true. They are powerhouse in small 1 castle map , i dont know about larger maps coz i never played with/against them on such maps.
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Daystar
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Back from the Dead
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posted May 31, 2007 09:48 PM |
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Even more so: They can keep collecting skellies and stuff from neutrals.
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How exactly is luck a skill?
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dreddy
Hired Hero
HC frosh
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posted June 01, 2007 10:19 AM |
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Edited by dreddy at 10:20, 01 Jun 2007.
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@ feluniozbunio: What about large-to-X-large maps? Wouldn't Necromancy benefits get ridiculous by the end of a long, 3-4 months game?
Quote:
and without shackless they just couldnt win
Did you keep spamming Empowered Armageddon and rehiring? Damn I hate that cheap trick so much %) works like a charm though.
Think about Necropolis this way: it's the only one whose troops, if commanded wisely, get more numerous as they win more battles. :] Well, joining neutrals don't count.
____________
“... so when the devil wants to dance with you, you’d better say “never”, because the dance with the devil might last you forever.” /Immortal Technique/
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dreddy
Hired Hero
HC frosh
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posted June 01, 2007 11:25 AM |
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Well, this is not a line-up change, but I think it’s a fairly creative idea which would boost a Necromancer’s development in a new way.
There are 12 common skills to be learnt, but there are 5 slots (1 is automatically invested into the racial ability), so 7 have to be left out. What about adding ability to BAN SOME (say, 3 or 4) SKILLS PERMANENTLY to the Undead Transformer? In that way you’re guaranteed to, say, never be offered Leadership, LOL. Then the probabilities to attain the skills you actually need increases, streamlining the Necromancer’s development.
I had this idea when one of my Necromancers leveled up and got those four !!fantastic options!!: Light Magic, Leadership (nice! now my Skellys would have higher morale!  ), Plague Tent and Master of Earthblood. I got the Earthblood, which isn’t such a great skill (buff up Firetrap and Earthquake, not the most useful spells) , but better than the others.
What do you think?
____________
“... so when the devil wants to dance with you, you’d better say “never”, because the dance with the devil might last you forever.” /Immortal Technique/
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted June 01, 2007 11:52 AM |
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Leadership->diplomacy->herald of death, that's all I'm gonna say about it..
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dreddy
Hired Hero
HC frosh
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posted June 01, 2007 12:50 PM |
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Quote:
Leadership->diplomacy->herald of death, that's all I'm gonna say about it..
What's so great about Herald of Death? Even with Diplomacy the chances of neutrals joining are slim. Plus, you waste a primary skill slot which you only have 6 of, dude.
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EliteKill
Promising
The Starless
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posted June 01, 2007 02:04 PM |
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There is a mod which makes wraiths 7th tier and blac/death knights 6th tier wit no changes except graphic You can balance it with modding again...
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watcher83
Supreme Hero
Child of Malassa
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posted June 01, 2007 02:46 PM |
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somehow all fans will never be pleased at the same time(game) because there are about 9-10 undead units and only 7 tiers, so no matter what the producers choose some we'll be left out.
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Gnoll_Mage
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted June 01, 2007 11:22 PM |
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Do you think they would have got more or less happinness in the fans if they'd changed the lineup a little more from the HoMM3 lineup?
Just had to say this dreddy - I can see you becoming a major community member in the future. It's always interesting to try to guess who will climb quickly in post and quality count.
Just my little prediction
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