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| Thread: Chernobyl |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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Kipshasz
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posted June 14, 2007 10:31 AM |
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Chernobyl
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uoEgkGNO-sQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qe_sD7bPSvg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEO9JAMfWUc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLlrxplNnbI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwEIX4KU7r8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-iDqzsTb3OM
shocking videos,im spechless...
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VokialBG
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posted June 14, 2007 11:31 AM |
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Good, and I'll say it now:
the subtitles are not in russian the are in bulgarian 
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Miru
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posted June 15, 2007 01:12 AM |
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That is an exaggerated reenactment, Chernobyl wasn't filmed.
Here is in short what happened:
Chernobyl was botched. What happened was the Russian knew every now and then a generator got turned off, this was nothing new to them, however it was so common they sought out a solution. They were inventing a way that the steam turbine would keep sinning an hour or two after the steam was cut off, like when you spin a wheel it keeps going for a little while. They timed it poorly, and being Russians treated the citizens as expendable and didn't tell them they were experimenting.
They informed a shift on what to do while they were testing, but by the time they started a new shift was in that had no clue what was going on and hadn't talked to the last clue. One of the people running it decided to cut off water cooling, but when the new shift came in they didn't know what had been cut off yet and what had. Due to no cooling the reactor melted down, essentially overheated.
Chernobyl and Three Mile Island (the other nuclear reactor that half melted down, this one in the US) had one thing in common; the people in charge panicked and cut off cooling, causing a meltdown. Sickeningly funny because one of the number one rules is always keep the coolant flowing.
I run the laser in the Calsci windshield production, (which my dad owns) and my dad has overheated the laser causing huge damage, twice. Both due to cooling problems. I know first hand from that, and studying nuke plants, Chernobyl, TMI, that you always keep the cooling going.
Before C and TMI nuclear power was considered so safe and efficient that people were sloppy causing the meltdowns, and panics. However with our newer technology nuke plants are saferer. But really we should use nuke power. The media exaggerates its danger.
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Trogdor
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posted June 15, 2007 01:55 PM |
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Quote:
That is an exaggerated reenactment, Chernobyl wasn't filmed.
Here is in short what happened:
Chernobyl was botched. What happened was the Russian knew every now and then a generator got turned off, this was nothing new to them, however it was so common they sought out a solution. They were inventing a way that the steam turbine would keep sinning an hour or two after the steam was cut off, like when you spin a wheel it keeps going for a little while. They timed it poorly, and being Russians treated the citizens as expendable and didn't tell them they were experimenting.
They informed a shift on what to do while they were testing, but by the time they started a new shift was in that had no clue what was going on and hadn't talked to the last clue. One of the people running it decided to cut off water cooling, but when the new shift came in they didn't know what had been cut off yet and what had. Due to no cooling the reactor melted down, essentially overheated.
Chernobyl and Three Mile Island (the other nuclear reactor that half melted down, this one in the US) had one thing in common; the people in charge panicked and cut off cooling, causing a meltdown. Sickeningly funny because one of the number one rules is always keep the coolant flowing.
I run the laser in the Calsci windshield production, (which my dad owns) and my dad has overheated the laser causing huge damage, twice. Both due to cooling problems. I know first hand from that, and studying nuke plants, Chernobyl, TMI, that you always keep the cooling going.
Before C and TMI nuclear power was considered so safe and efficient that people were sloppy causing the meltdowns, and panics. However with our newer technology nuke plants are saferer. But really we should use nuke power. The media exaggerates its danger.
Miru, your conspiracy theories are not needed here.
The aftershocks of Chernobyl were pretty terrible indeed, and from what I've seen it's a ghost town now and is quite freezing.
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william
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posted June 17, 2007 06:52 AM |
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Trogdor, I think that Miru can express his theories here if he wishes. 
They are actually quite interesting.
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Trogdor
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posted June 17, 2007 10:13 AM |
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Trogdor, I think that Miru can express his theories here if he wishes.
They are actually quite interesting.
You may think that but I believe it's just hogwash, and so should you.
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Binabik
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posted June 17, 2007 11:21 AM |
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I studied this quite a bit a few months ago. Part of what Miru said is basically correct. Other parts are not correct.
In the case of Chernobyl and Three Mile Island both, it's fairly well known what happened and how. It's the aftermath where the controversy really starts, especially with Chernobyl.
You can't compare Chernobyl and Three Mile Island in any way. They are two completely different designs and the reason for the meltdown was completely different.
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They were inventing a way that the steam turbine would keep sinning an hour or two after the steam was cut off, like when you spin a wheel it keeps going for a little while.
This is pretty much correct. I'll add that I don't think this was the first time this test was run, I believe it had been done many times.
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They timed it poorly, and being Russians treated the citizens as expendable and didn't tell them they were experimenting.
There was really no reason to tell anyone. What they were doing "should have" been safe. Saying they timed it poorly is a major over-simplification.
I'm not sure if I'm remembering this right, but I think it went something like this: On any power grid, no matter how the power is generated, generators are brought on and off line on a regular basis depending on the demand for power. There is a central control where decisions are made about which plants are powered up or powered down. I might have this wrong, but I think what happened was that there was an increase in power demand, so the central control decided to bring plant #4 at Chernobyl on line to provide temporary power until the demand decreased.
The test they were running was already scheduled. They were supposed to slowly decrease the power over several hours with a prescribed power level at each time interval. When they had to bring the plant on line to meet the power demand, it delayed the preparations for the test.
When the next shift started, the power level was not where it was originally scheduled to be. I'm even more unclear about this part, but I think what happened was that the operators did not have any orders to delay the test. So they continued to follow their last orders even though the situation had changed. That meant starting the test at the prescribed time even though the power level was not correct. So yea, I guess you could say it was poor timing.
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Chernobyl and Three Mile Island (the other nuclear reactor that half melted down, this one in the US) had one thing in common; the people in charge panicked and cut off cooling, causing a meltdown. Sickeningly funny because one of the number one rules is always keep the coolant flowing.
Wrong! What happened at Chernobyl is far more complex than that.
And at Three Mile Island, there was a water pump that just broke, nobody shut it off. And the broken pump is not what really caused the problem. The real problem was that they had no way of knowing it was broken. The only indication they had was a sight glass where they could see the water level rising. They incorrectly interpreted that as having too much water in the system so they began venting water to lower the level. In reality, there wasn't too much water, it was heated and the expansion caused the level to rise. By venting water, they made the situation worse by decreasing the amount of coolant in the system. So it just got worse and worse.
Due to design differences between Chernobyl and TMI, TMI was much easier to get under control and had much better safeguards to contain the radiation. Some radiation got out because they intentionally vented air from inside the reactor housing to help lower the temperature, but this was fairly low level radiation. For the most part, the radiation was contained at TMI, whereas Chernobyl had an explosion causing it to completely blow the top of the building off --- thereby exposing the outside world to massive amounts of radiation. TMI was double capped and Chernobyl was only single capped. Plus TMI didn't have an explosion.
I should make it clear that the explosion at Chernobyl was *NOT* a nuclear explosion. A nuclear explosion CAN'T happen at a nuclear power plant. The explosion was due to almost instant super heating of the water.
Picture a steam engine where you heat water turning it to steam. It's injected into a cylinder where the expanding steam pushes a piston. At Chernobyl, imagine an entire swimming pool being instantly super heated and turning into steam all at once. It's contained inside the building with nowhere to go. So this massive instantaneous expansion of steam literally blew the top off the building.
I think it was part five of the video where they mentioned the graphite tipped boron rods. What I don't think they mentioned is that this particualr design is another flaw in the old Soviet designed power plants. This design is used simply because it's cheaper.
It's the graphite tip that caused the super heating of the water. I believe these rods are used to control the temperature, but there's a major flaw with this method. By lowering the rods into the water, it effectively lowers the temperature of the water. *BUT*, when the graphite tip first comes into contact with the water, it has just the opposite affect. It temporarliy increases the temperature, not decreases it.
This flaw was known by the desingners of the plant, but I don't think it was known by the operators.
Anyway, it's way past my bedtime.
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Miru
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posted June 17, 2007 10:33 PM |
bonus applied. |
Edited by Miru at 22:36, 17 Jun 2007.
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You can't compare Chernobyl and Three Mile Island in any way. They are two completely different designs and the reason for the meltdown was completely different.
Uhh.. Yeah you can. They were both nuclear reactors C melted down, TMI half melted down (half of the core was melted)Quote:
Quote:
They were inventing a way that the steam turbine would keep sinning an hour or two after the steam was cut off, like when you spin a wheel it keeps going for a little while.
This is pretty much correct. I'll add that I don't think this was the first time this test was run, I believe it had been done many times.
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They timed it poorly, and being Russians treated the citizens as expendable and didn't tell them they were experimenting.
There was really no reason to tell anyone. What they were doing "should have" been safe. Saying they timed it poorly is a major over-simplification.
As you can tell my the length of my post and the "basically" in the beginning I was simplifiing.
Quote:
I'm not sure if I'm remembering this right, but I think it went something like this: On any power grid, no matter how the power is generated, generators are brought on and off line on a regular basis depending on the demand for power.
No, in fact it takes a month to turn a nuke plant all the way off because of the constant reaction. The Russians actually previously invented a method which allowed them to switch out control rods easily with out shutting it off, however the operators doing it always got radiated. Nuke plants went off line due to problems on a general basis (in russia)
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There is a central control where decisions are made about which plants are powered up or powered down. I might have this wrong, but I think what happened was that there was an increase in power demand, so the central control decided to bring plant #4 at Chernobyl on line to provide temporary power until the demand decreased.
Actually they were using it for power as they ran they experimentsQuote:
The test they were running was already scheduled. They were supposed to slowly decrease the power over several hours with a prescribed power level at each time interval. When they had to bring the plant on line to meet the power demand, it delayed the preparations for the test.
When the next shift started, the power level was not where it was originally scheduled to be. I'm even more unclear about this part, but I think what happened was that the operators did not have any orders to delay the test. So they continued to follow their last orders even though the situation had changed. That meant starting the test at the prescribed time even though the power level was not correct. So yea, I guess you could say it was poor timing.
Quote:
Chernobyl and Three Mile Island (the other nuclear reactor that half melted down, this one in the US) had one thing in common; the people in charge panicked and cut off cooling, causing a meltdown. Sickeningly funny because one of the number one rules is always keep the coolant flowing.
Wrong! What happened at Chernobyl is far more complex than that.
But in both situations the lack off cooling caused the melt down (the causes of the lack of cooling were slightly different.Quote:
And at Three Mile Island, there was a water pump that just broke, nobody shut it off. And the broken pump is not what really caused the problem. The real problem was that they had no way of knowing it was broken. The only indication they had was a sight glass where they could see the water level rising. They incorrectly interpreted that as having too much water in the system so they began venting water to lower the level. In reality, there wasn't too much water, it was heated and the expansion caused the level to rise. By venting water, they made the situation worse by decreasing the amount of coolant in the system. So it just got worse and worse.
Due to design differences between Chernobyl and TMI, TMI was much easier to get under control and had much better safeguards to contain the radiation. Due to it being run by us paranoid AmericansSome radiation got out because they intentionally vented air from inside the reactor housing to help lower the temperature, but this was fairly low level radiation. For the most part, the radiation was contained at TMI, whereas Chernobyl had an explosion causing it to completely blow the top of the building off --- thereby exposing the outside world to massive amounts of radiation. TMI was double capped and Chernobyl was only single capped. Plus TMI didn't have an explosion.
I should make it clear that the explosion at Chernobyl was *NOT* a nuclear explosion. A nuclear explosion CAN'T happen at a nuclear power plant. The explosion was due to almost instant super heating of the water.
Unless a third party dropped a nuke on it . But nuke plants don't explode.Quote:
Picture a steam engine where you heat water turning it to steam. It's injected into a cylinder where the expanding steam pushes a piston. At Chernobyl, imagine an entire swimming pool being instantly super heated and turning into steam all at once. It's contained inside the building with nowhere to go. So this massive instantaneous expansion of steam literally blew the top off the building.
No Chernobyl used Turbines, not Pistons (Cylinders)Quote:
I think it was part five of the video where they mentioned the graphite tipped boron rods. What I don't think they mentioned is that this particular design is another flaw in the old Soviet designed power plants. This design is used simply because it's cheaper.
It's the graphite tip that caused the super heating of the water. I believe these rods are used to control the temperature
No they are used to control the Neutrons.
In a nuke plant (non breeder) you split a uranium atom and it becomes two new atoms and some spare neutrons go flying out which split more atoms, and as the atoms split they release energy which is used to heat water into steam which can either a) activate a cylinder or b) spin a turbine. They control rods are made of atoms which their next isotopes are also stable so they can "sponge up" loose neutrons to "control" they reaction. By adding or subtracting rods you can vary the reaction size.
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, but there's a major flaw with this method. By lowering the rods into the water, it effectively lowers the temperature of the water. *BUT*, when the graphite tip first comes into contact with the water, it has just the opposite affect. It temporarily increases the temperature, not decreases it.
This flaw was known by the designers of the plant, but I don't think it was known by the operators.
Anyway, it's way past my bedtime.
And @ Trogdor, the "conspiracy themes" are part of a condition called... paranoia. On your behalf.
To back Up what I've been saying here is HowStuffWorks (you have to read the other parts of the article, it's a multi page article) and Wikipediaon how Nuclear reactors work.
Here is Wikipedia on the disaster itself
Here is hypothesized damaged reactor in TMI
BTW I like breeder reactors... they are clever. And complicated.
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friendofgunnar
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posted June 18, 2007 07:57 AM |
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Is there anybody that can tell me what "chernobyl" means in English?
I remember somebody tying this into Revelations and the apocolypse.
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Binabik
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posted June 18, 2007 08:21 AM |
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Edited by Binabik at 08:35, 18 Jun 2007.
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The translation is controversial. But they claim Chernobyl means "wormwood" (I think that's right) which is mentioned in some prophecy.
edit: I looked it up
from the book of Revelations
And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as if it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters; and the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.
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Binabik
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posted June 18, 2007 09:43 AM |
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@Miro
I don't know what you are referring to when you say "They were both nuclear reactors C melted down". Yes, of course they both melted down, that's why we are talking about them. But I repeat again that they are two different designs. The design at Chernobyl was a design that only the Soviets used. The two plants used different methods to distribute the heated water/steam and they used different methods to regulate the reaction. And the actual cause of the meltdown was completely different.
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No, in fact it takes a month to turn a nuke plant all the way off because of the constant reaction
Actually you can shut it down immediately, but it's extremely dangerous and only done in a dire emergency. But that's exactly what they did at Chernobyl. Somebody hit the panic button to shut it down, although they were already operating at a low power level at the time.
The reactor was going to be shut down for service work anyway. The test was done because it needed to be done at a reduced power level, so as long as they were shutting it down anyway, they would do the test.
What I said about the grid wasn't about shutting the reactor on and off like flipping a switch, I was making a general statement about the power grid and how they have changing demands for power. Even an old coal fired power plant can't be switched on and off like that (it takes about a full day to fire one up). What happened at Chernobyl was that they stopped the power-down process because the grid needed more power. As I stated, this meant that the power level was not where it should have been when the next shift started.
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No Chernobyl used Turbines, not Pistons (Cylinders)
Did you really think I thought a nuke was a reciprocating engine? I said that's what blew the top off the building. It has nothing to do with generating power. So it was a poor analogy, but I was comparing the movement of a piston to the "movement" of the top of the building.
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No they are used to control the Neutrons.
I said it "effectively" controls the temperature (well I said that the second time anyway). Controlling the reaction effectively controls the temperature. Everything in the plant either directly or indirectly has to do with heating or cooling water.
Actually when I was researching this, I wasn't even looking into how it happened, but I was interested in the aftermath. Is it still leaking radiation? What are the short and long term health effects? Where did the fallout "fall"? etc
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TitaniumAlloy
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posted June 18, 2007 10:31 AM |
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Why are the subtitles in Russian? 
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ratmonky
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posted June 18, 2007 05:51 PM |
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Wrong, Chernobyl means black grass in Ukrainian. The connection with the book of revelation is just an urban myth.
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Geny
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posted June 18, 2007 05:56 PM |
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Wrong. The connection with revelation is of course a myth, but "chernobyl" is not just "black grass", it's a certain plant known in Russian as "polin" and called "wormwood" in English.
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baklava
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posted June 18, 2007 09:01 PM |
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Quote:
Why are the subtitles in Russian?
Was that meant just to piss Vokial off?
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VokialBG
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posted June 18, 2007 09:17 PM |
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Edited by VokialBG at 21:18, 18 Jun 2007.
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Why are the subtitles in Russian?
The subs are not in Russian! Bulgarian, Bulgarian --->>> the first cyrilic language in the universe! Many countries are using our alphabet.
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Spectrum
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posted June 18, 2007 09:21 PM |
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Our science teacher showed us this game in the internet where you had to try and control what happened in Chernobyl by opening vents, controlling pressure, heat, water circulation and all that. It was great fun, too, but really hard. If only I could remember the link...
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mvassilev
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posted June 18, 2007 09:25 PM |
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The subs are not in Russian! Bulgarian, Bulgarian --->>> the first cyrilic language in the universe! Many countries are using our alphabet.
The Bulgarian language was not written using the Cyrillic alphabet. The Old Church Slavonic language was.
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VokialBG
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posted June 18, 2007 09:34 PM |
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Edited by VokialBG at 21:41, 18 Jun 2007.
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Quote:
Quote:
The subs are not in Russian! Bulgarian, Bulgarian --->>> the first cyrilic language in the universe! Many countries are using our alphabet.
The Bulgarian language was not written using the Cyrillic alphabet. The Old Church Slavonic language was.
Yeah, which was written by the bulgarian St. Clement, in the bulgarian capital, and used for first time in Bulgaria and for first time with bulgarian words. All other slavs in this period have no alphabet and use alphabet ot other country, or they just can't write, ot they still are using the Glagolitic alphabet.
Many historian call to this alphabet - Old bulgarian alphabet not Old Church Slavonic language and actualy it become Church Slavonic later, St. Clement written it for the bulgarians, then the Glagolitic is too hard, later the russians (in time of Peter the Great) start to use it.
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mvassilev
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posted June 19, 2007 03:13 AM |
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Many historian call to this alphabet - Old bulgarian alphabet
Yeah, Bulgarian nationalist historians.
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the russians (in time of Peter the Great) start to use it.
No. They used it a lot earlier. Slovo o polku Igoryeve was written with Cyrillic, as well as the Primary Chronicle (Povest' Vremennykh Let).
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