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mvassilev
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posted August 11, 2007 03:03 AM |
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Born into this world hating God and every desire since birth is selfish and evil.
Wow. Just wow. Babies know nothing about God. Nothing. If a child is raised in an atheistic household that never uses the word "God", and if the child has no interaction outside of the family, that child is not going to have any idea about God. Not hating Him, nothing.
Every desire, selfish and evil? Well, I agree that all actions are, deep down inside, selfish (or their original intent was selfish). But what about the desire to help? Is that a selfish desire? Now, I realize that it is a selfish desire in that you help your species, which you are part of. So, the original evolutionary intent of the action is to preserve the species, so you can pass on your genes. Selfish, of course. But that original desire is still there, but the situation is different. Many people help without having an inkling of why they want to help. Are they selfish? Certainly not. As for evil, most things that are concerned evil are those harmful to the group. Some desires are indeed harmful thus. But not every desire harms a certain group that you are part of, so you can permit some desires and supress others.
For example, desire of a woman can lead to rape. That desire is momentarily benefital to you, and very harmful to the woman. Because of the social contract, you will be persecuted, so it will probably be harmful for you in the end as well. That is why such desires should be carefully watched.
On the other hand, a desire to improve your quality of life can (surprise) make you improve your general quality of life (you would work more, make more money, and worry less or just make more friends and have more fun. Either way, you are improving your quality of life). Most of the time, this harms no one and helps you. This desire has no negative consequences. In fact, it should be encouraged.
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Becoming a Christian is an after birth decision that's made, and those individuals are still capable of commiting terrible crimes just the same.
Often, it's not a decision. If you're brought up as a Christian, most of the time you will stay a Christian. Not much of a decision there. But I agree that you can still commit horrible crimes.
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Eccentric Opinion
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TitaniumAlloy
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posted August 11, 2007 05:29 AM |
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@Baklava:
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1) Punishments remain in the temporary physical plane only. When people go to heaven there are no punishments there.
2) God, seeing as humanity bent down to false prophets etc after Jesus, decided it was best to keep the punishment as it was until mankind saw its own wrong doings.
3) Since God already divided our material life and our afterlife, it was impossible to just undo it all and return us to the first ways - not cause it would be impossible for him/her/it but because we wouldn't be able to stand the transition. We were so changed that we couldn't endure such metamorphosis.
3) God stopped punishing us indeed. But we continued punishing ourselves, through wars, hatred etc.
4) Forgiving sins is one thing; returning the Earth to the state of the Garden of Eden and bringing us into position to sin in its soil again would cause the forgiveness to be pointless, and an even greater punishment exacted upon us defiling Eden again.
5) Finally realizing how hopeless we are, God took off and made a new Earth somewhere else in the universe, and a new race on it; but he didn't have the heart to destroy us so he left us dwell here on this planet until the planet itself dies or we exterminate ourselves.
1. It's a matter of principle. Think of it as a schoolboy who's done something bad. The teacher canes him and whips him, then says he's forgiven. Then canes him and whips him still, saying that he'll stop once the boy's out of school. Or uni. Or when the boy's dead.  And besides, before Jesus forgave our sins, if someone did exactly as Jesus was to teach in the future, would he have gone to heaven? If no, then that's god not being consistent. If yes, then the forgiveness you speak of is superfluous.
2. The punishment stopped not even for a second after the forgiveness.
3. Interesting. I reckon I could do it 
4. And not even give us a chance? What's the point of having the Garden of Eden then? And I thought the Garden was a metaphor?
5. Most likely. And damn, he even wasted his only begotten son on us
@Shadey:
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Some atheists are full of hate and have killed millions in whatever name they felt like. I don't see how that's relevant.
Every Christian who ever lived was born the same as every atheist. Born into this world hating God and every desire since birth is selfish and evil. Becoming a Christian is an after birth decision that's made, and those individuals are still capable of commiting terrible crimes just the same.
There is a distinct difference though.
Those killings weren't made because they were atheist. They would have happened anyway. So the killings in the name of religion are extra killings that wouldn't have happened if not for religion. And any amount of killings prevented has got to help.
And many children are born into families with religion forced upon them, so much that if they did not follow suit they would be outcast from the family. Usually they do follow that religion because they have been born and raised with it.
Think about it; if a religious believer's son (or your son, for example) as a child decided that he didn't believe in god, how would that person react? They want to stop their son from going to hell, so they would have a desperate desire to make their son believe.
If an atheist's son decides they want to believe in god, it's not so big of a deal. Obviously some people might tell them not to, but usually they will just let it be nowadays.
As the old prayer goes;
"Lord, I ascribe it to thy Grace,
And not to Chance, as others do,
That I was born of Christian race,
And not a Heathen or a Jew.”
Which bears striking resemblance to the Jewish prayer "Blessed art thou, O God, for not making me a Gentile, slave, or woman."
So perhaps God does choose which people follow his religion and go to heaven, and which are born into poverty and die, or which are born into atheism, and get fire and hot pokers.
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John says to live above hell.
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Corribus
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posted August 11, 2007 05:31 AM |
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Edited by Corribus at 05:34, 11 Aug 2007.
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@Baklava:
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Religious beliefs are like music tastes really.
People don't usually kill each other over music tastes.
@Shadey:
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Some atheists are full of hate and have killed millions in whatever name they felt like. I don't see how that's relevant.
Echoing what TA wrote: Anybody can be filled with hate. But I'm not sure I know of any atheists who killed millions (or thousands or hundreds) in the name of atheism. I know of several examples of people who HAVE killed millions (or thousands or hundreds) in the name of a theistic religion. That's not to imply that all religious people would do so given the means. Merely to say that there is no atheistic analogy to, say, the Inquisition. There's a fundamental reason for that.
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Every Christian who ever lived was born the same as every atheist.
In the sense that they are all clean slates, agreed.
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Born into this world hating God and every desire since birth is selfish and evil.
Not agreed. You have to be taught about God before you can learn to hate - or love - Him.
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Becoming a Christian is an after birth decision that's made, and those individuals are still capable of commiting terrible crimes just the same.
Not necessarily agreed. Children who are indoctrinated into a religion do not usually have a choice, and certainly rarely if ever is the choice an educated one. They have a choice later on of abandoning the religion or joining another. Whether that choice is an informed, educated one is up to the individual person.
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Doomforge
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posted August 11, 2007 10:46 AM |
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And besides, before Jesus forgave our sins, if someone did exactly as Jesus was to teach in the future, would he have gone to heaven? If no, then that's god not being consistent. If yes, then the forgiveness you speak of is superfluous.
according to Bible..
Those who died, just DIED. But, they have been ressurected together with Christ (if they were worth it.). It was the first ressurection. Yea, the second one is intended to happen when Christ returns here. ANother point that proves my theory that there is no hell taken literally. Those who die, just die. This is hell. God isn't a sadist after all. You don't want to go to him? No prob. You remain dead.
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4. And not even give us a chance? What's the point of having the Garden of Eden then? And I thought the Garden was a metaphor?
Yes it was ;d
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So the killings in the name of religion are extra killings that wouldn't have happened if not for religion. And any amount of killings prevented has got to help.
I strongly disagree. Apart from extremely rare cases of true fanatic murders, those poeple that murdered "in the name of faith" would most likely find another excuse if religion wasn't out there. The crusaders would still go after muslims, only that their names would be different, and their motivation aswell. Maybe there would be a different place or time for them to go and kill people. But they ultimately would. Don't think that no relligion would prevent the kills. It's a mere excuse, as good as any other.
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Think about it; if a religious believer's son (or your son, for example) as a child decided that he didn't believe in god, how would that person react? They want to stop their son from going to hell, so they would have a desperate desire to make their son believe.
Most likely, although ultimately they give up, at least normal, non-biggoted ppl. You should understand that, if you were religious and your child wanted to give up on God, would you want him to die forever? (or, in case you did not understood that there is no hell, would you want him to go to hell? ;d)
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If an atheist's son decides they want to believe in god, it's not so big of a deal. Obviously some people might tell them not to, but usually they will just let it be nowadays.
It's not always that sugary. The fledgling believer can become an object of mockery and derisions for his family. It can hurt more than annoying convincing of the religious ppl, actually. As angelito says,generalizing is bad.
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"Lord, I ascribe it to thy Grace,
And not to Chance, as others do,
That I was born of Christian race,
And not a Heathen or a Jew.�
The strong tendencies to hate Jews in Europe grew throughout ages, in everything, not only relligion (*cough*nazis*cough*)
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So perhaps God does choose which people follow his religion and go to heaven, and which are born into poverty and die, or which are born into atheism, and get fire and hot pokers.
pointless. You have the freedom the believe or not. That's the point of freedom of will.
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TitaniumAlloy
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posted August 11, 2007 12:47 PM |
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Quote:
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Think about it; if a religious believer's son (or your son, for example) as a child decided that he didn't believe in god, how would that person react? They want to stop their son from going to hell, so they would have a desperate desire to make their son believe.
Most likely, although ultimately they give up, at least normal, non-biggoted ppl. You should understand that, if you were religious and your child wanted to give up on God, would you want him to die forever? (or, in case you did not understood that there is no hell, would you want him to go to hell? ;d)
No, which is exactly my point. Theists have a strong motivation to make sure that their loved ones believe the way they do. Atheists don't.
Mel Gibson claims that his wife is going to hell because she isn't Catholic. She's Anglican. Close enough, right?
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If an atheist's son decides they want to believe in god, it's not so big of a deal. Obviously some people might tell them not to, but usually they will just let it be nowadays.
It's not always that sugary. The fledgling believer can become an object of mockery and derisions for his family. It can hurt more than annoying convincing of the religious ppl, actually. As angelito says,generalizing is bad.
I didn't generalize. I said usually. Read above, about the strong motivation.
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pointless. You have the freedom the believe or not. That's the point of freedom of will.
It's not always that sugary.
What if you're born into a family like Mvassilev said, never heard of god never got taught about him or anything.
Or if you die as an infant.
If you're born into a fanatical religious family, you should be considered lucky that you have no other option than to have your soul saved for you
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John says to live above hell.
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angelito
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posted August 11, 2007 01:15 PM |
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With birth and religion (in christian regions), I thought it works like this (as of yet):
1. A baby is born. It is automatic a theist, coz the parents are and force the baby to undergo religious ceremonies (baptism)
2. As young child, it HAS to take part in the prayers the parents speak before the meals. It also HAS to speak prayers by itself before going to bed (not an own decision of course)
3. As teenager, it is forced to learn about religion and the bible in school. Here they probably make their first decision: Is the bible a good book, or is it a fantasy book?
4. when grown up, this human being has its own thoughts, its own experiences. That's the time when the decision takes place: THEIST or ATHEIST.
If this baby is born in an atheist family, forget about point no. 1 and 2, but no. 3 and 4 still happen like described.
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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TitaniumAlloy
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posted August 11, 2007 01:29 PM |
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Often where I live, if you want to get a good education, the school will pretty much always be a Christian school. Some don't even let you in if you aren't confirmed.
This means taking Religious Education up to a certain year level, and going to church service.
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John says to live above hell.
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baklava
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posted August 11, 2007 01:35 PM |
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About people killed in the name of religion, that's basically the "false prophets" part... Jesus clearly viewed organized religion as false prophets.
But if people weren't killed for religion, they would be killed for something else. Alexander, the Roman Empire, Vatican, Napoleon, Hitler... Mankind just has this urge to enslave and butcher itself. If Christianity hadn't been devised, it would be over something else. Every religion is peaceful in nature - the killings start when the leaders and the masses perceive it aggresively. It's not the religion's fault.
That's like saying it's the fault of Aztecs that they had a lot of gold and the conquistadores butchered them to take it.
Cain didn't have the Bible when he slew Abel.
Though Doomforge already mentioned something similar...
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3. As teenager, it is forced to learn about religion and the bible in school. Here they probably make their first decision: Is the bible a good book, or is it a fantasy book?
What do you mean, good or fantasy? Why can't it be a good fantasy book?
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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BrennusWhiskey
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posted August 11, 2007 02:03 PM |
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1. God loves us right? When you love somebobody you'll never accept when he choose death. You will fight about future loved person.
2.Infact I dont know case when atheists kills some people for religion. Even nazi's has cross and other christian things. (And church save a much from them after war)
3. About crusaders: do you know what they massacre, burned alive other people and even eat human flash? Do they killed for God or for money?
Think about this...
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baklava
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posted August 11, 2007 02:36 PM |
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1. God loves us right? When you love somebobody you'll never accept when he choose death. You will fight about future loved person.
Would you love someone who killed your own son?
This is unrelated, I just felt like mentioning that
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2.Infact I dont know case when atheists kills some people for religion. Even nazi's has cross and other christian things. (And church save a much from them after war)
Well nazis had the swastika too but they weren't hindu... But there are some interesting connections with them and the Church.
On the other hand, that only proves Christ's claim about false prophets.
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3. About crusaders: do you know what they massacre, burned alive other people and even eat human flash? Do they killed for God or for money?
Oh trust me, such occurences are closer to me than you realize. In periods much later than medieval...
An event has been noted on the territory of today's Croatia of a pregnant woman whose stomach has been slashed open, the child ripped out, stabbed with a knife, and then returned to her slashed belly. She was afterwards thrown in a pit and left to bleed to death. In the 20th century.
Because she was orthodox christian, and not catholic. 
Then again, that's not the reason to dislike Jesus and the Bible, only the people who use them to their own twisted goals.
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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angelito
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posted August 11, 2007 02:41 PM |
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Edited by angelito at 14:42, 11 Aug 2007.
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About people killed in the name of religion, that's basically the "false prophets" part... Jesus clearly viewed organized religion as false prophets.
But if people weren't killed for religion, they would be killed for something else. Alexander, the Roman Empire, Vatican, Napoleon, Hitler... Mankind just has this urge to enslave and butcher itself. If Christianity hadn't been devised, it would be over something else. Every religion is peaceful in nature - the killings start when the leaders and the masses perceive it aggresively. It's not the religion's fault.
That's like saying it's the fault of Aztecs that they had a lot of gold and the conquistadores butchered them to take it.
Guess u didn't get the point of this. Alexander, Hitler, Napoleon weren't explicit ATHEISTS. They made war for different non-religious reasons. But can u name an explicit ATHEIST who killed many people coz he/she WAS atheist? Quote:
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3. As teenager, it is forced to learn about religion and the bible in school. Here they probably make their first decision: Is the bible a good book, or is it a fantasy book?
What do you mean, good or fantasy? Why can't it be a good fantasy book?
You're right here, I've chosen a bad formulation. With "good" I meant more the meaning of "true".
And I wanna state one thing about the Bible itself here:
I do NOT think the bible is a BAD book! It has tons of text which give a good example how we should react in real life. I see the bible (not the whole book of course, but a bunch full of passages) as help for people to get the picture of right or wrong. Of morality, of ethic...and so on. Most poeple only have access to these values by the reading the bible. They don't get teached by parents, teachers or anybody else. That's why I think the bible isn't a bad book. People should just try to get the important things out of it and use it for their way of life. Don't try to live your life 100% like it is described in the bible...and don't blame others who also don#t do that. Then all will be fine. 
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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TitaniumAlloy
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posted August 11, 2007 02:48 PM |
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Baklava you contradict yourself...
What happened to that woman is disgusting. But if religion was taken out of the equation, would it have happened?
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John says to live above hell.
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baklava
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posted August 11, 2007 02:49 PM |
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Edited by baklava at 14:55, 11 Aug 2007.
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Guess u didn't get the point of this. Alexander, Hitler, Napoleon weren't explicit ATHEISTS. They made war for different non-religious reasons. But can u name an explicit ATHEIST who killed many people coz he/she WAS atheist?
More than a half of Vatican's treasures throughout history were gained through the crusades or paid with the loot from them. Oh go ahead and tell me they were only led by faith...
Of course, saying how it was strictly for christianity certainly made the soldiers fight more and drive them into fanatism, which was also rather useful. It is always better to have a servant that worships you as a God instead of working for money.
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Don't try to live your life 100% like it is described in the bible...and don't blame others who also don#t do that. Then all will be fine.
Exactly. Great formulation.
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Baklava you contradict yourself...
What happened to that woman is disgusting. But if religion was taken out of the equation, would it have happened?
Yes. It was part of the ethnic and religious cleansing of the Independent State of Croatia which was formed as a puppet nation of the Axis forces on the territory of defeated Yugoslavia during WW2. The Catholic Church strongly supported that - even the Croatian Archbishop, Alojzije Stepinac, openly said he was for that idea. He was later proclaimed saint by the Vatican. But it would have happened with or without the support of the Church.
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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Doomforge
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posted August 11, 2007 02:51 PM |
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But can u name an explicit ATHEIST who killed many people coz he/she WAS atheist?
Stalin.
Religion made propaganda less effective (or I should say, churches brainwashed ppl as good as his commies' propaganda) so they were a serious threat to his mind-control business.
And you know what uncle Joe did with those who stood in his way.
Example number two.. maybe a better one, too.
Pol-Pot.
Religion (buddhism) was the first thing forbidden in Cambodia. it collided with his twisted plan of turning his own people into brainless field-working zombies. Temples were desacrated and monks were killed or forced to do fatal labor ONLY because they were theists.
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TitaniumAlloy
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posted August 11, 2007 02:58 PM |
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If you attack someone because they are religious does not mean you are attacking because you are atheist.
It is still killing in the name of religion, regardless of the religion of the killer.
If what you claim is true, then if religion were taken out of the equation, these would not have happened. Supposedly.
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Yes. It was part of the ethnic and religious cleansing of the Independent State of Croatia which was formed as a puppet nation of the Axis forces on the territory of defeated Yugoslavia during WW2. The Catholic Church strongly supported that - even the Croatian Archbishop, Alojzije Stepinac, openly said he was for that idea. He was later proclaimed saint by the Vatican. But it would have happened with or without the support of the Church.
Then she was not killed because she was orthodox-Christian.
____________
John says to live above hell.
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Doomforge
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posted August 11, 2007 03:02 PM |
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It's like blaiming a raped girl that he wore a mini, TA. Religion can't be blamed for deaths of theists. You're putting the blame on the killed, and not the killer, here.
Pol-pot is a good example here, because, just like the Popes, he used his atheism like they have used their so-called faith to achieve his twisted goal. The conclusion is simple: the genocide has little to do with relligion or atheism.
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baklava
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posted August 11, 2007 03:06 PM |
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If you attack someone because they are religious does not mean you are attacking because you are atheist.
Well by that logic, if you attack someone because they are atheists doesn't mean you are attacking them because you're religious
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If what you claim is true, then if religion were taken out of the equation, these would not have happened. Supposedly.
It supposedly wouldn't have happened either if atheism was taken out of the equation. I mean, if that's how we're going to look at it.
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Then she was not killed because she was orthodox-Christian.
But that was one of the reasons. People rarely get massively butchered for just one reason - if that reason fails, those who want to kill them will always find another one.
All those people killed by the crusaders also weren't killed just cause they were muslim, but cause they had possessions that could be looted, and they weren't crusaders. Crusaders usually didn't check someone's religion; they just wanted to plunder. Many christians fell by their hands too (take the attacks on Byzantium for example).
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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TitaniumAlloy
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posted August 11, 2007 03:24 PM |
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Quote:
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If you attack someone because they are religious does not mean you are attacking because you are atheist.
Well by that logic, if you attack someone because they are atheists doesn't mean you are attacking them because you're religious
No, it doesn't.
But if you attack someone because they are a different religion to you, then it does. That includes atheism.
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If what you claim is true, then if religion were taken out of the equation, these would not have happened. Supposedly.
It supposedly wouldn't have happened either if atheism was taken out of the equation. I mean, if that's how we're going to look at it.
LMAO. take atheism out of the equation.
And besides. If Stalin were not atheist. So you've taken atheism out of the equation (as you've turned this back on me ).
And the Church was screwing with him, then he still would have got rid of them.
____________
John says to live above hell.
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baklava
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posted August 11, 2007 07:07 PM |
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No, it doesn't.
But if you attack someone because they are a different religion to you, then it does. That includes atheism.
Then atheism must be included in both ways. Attacking those who are religious because you're atheist is also a pure religion-based attack. Such as Stalin's.
Uhm I didn't quite understand the second part of your post
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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BrennusWhiskey
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posted August 12, 2007 12:01 AM |
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Reading that thread I start wonder how it is full of quotes (and face ) But conclusions are about complete other things than quotes words...
To Baklava: You quoting my every word but your conclusions are wrong.
I never said any word about liking or disliking Christ or Bible; or which son he was...
I said only about things are important for me; which should be important for others too; for just a while of thinking...
I said Think about this, Open your mind...
PS. Your words is based only on your believes, not mine...
Iam free for discussion but not for attacking by permament quoting...
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This thread is pages long: 
