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| Thread: Factions' Creeping Potential |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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sdfx
Famous Hero
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posted September 05, 2007 12:20 PM |
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a)It is unreliable in spell availability.
ans:Still, week 1 fodder(how else to call it?  ) is even more unreliable.
b)You'll almost never get phoenix+arcane armor by week 2.
ans epends on getting to Magic Vault(guards have to be big enough so that lvl5 spell is offered).
c)Pursuing mage guild 5 that fast means less units and high risk of getting the wrong spells too.
ans:Arcane armor is not that bad.
d)Even humans cannot always predict where the mines are and if they do there is little to be done about it. Units always move straight they can't go around because you told them.
ans:Well, by moving your troops you move AI troops - AI is not random.
e)Who has the mana to keep casting summoning? Only wizards and necros that are lucky to get knowledge quickly, motn is not enough with 1-2 knowledge.
ans: Poor necro.. Still, guild lvl4(+archer upgrade) ASAP is the best option. Elementals give infinite mana even with 2 knowledge.
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Sure summoning is cumulative but it has flaws and it is a gamble. Plus it is indirect so it cannot instantly curse or damage a high threat unit as a master hunter.
Too bad, for now they like shooting elementals so much..
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If you are sure to get expert in both schools by week 1.. I covered before why I think it a bad idea. A warlock with summoning?  1-2 firetraps -> out of mana. 1 summon elementals/phoenix -> damn mana over again. Only wizards can do taht because they have the mana and the mana regeneration due to high knowledge. Dark ritual consumes too much time.
Still, summoning uses way less mana than destructive. 1 summon is enough while 1-2 destructive spells are not. So, at creeping summoning>>destructive.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted September 05, 2007 12:50 PM |
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About haven I've used the ballista and it's not worth it unless you want to rush. By week 3 when you get the cavaliers your sheer defense can get you through everything so you just focus on those you can by then.
Hmmm, perhaps, if you get the ressources to build Cavaliers. You might be right, I'm not that skilled a [Haven] player either, it's just been my experience that War Machines was rarely a bad pick. And of course there's always several paths to choose.
Anyway, a well deserved QP has been applied for the thread.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted September 05, 2007 01:24 PM |
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@kermit
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On Versions: I was talking about version 1.5 of the game which I happen to posses. Behaviour of AI vs summoned/gated units is irrational, it simply ignores those units... Thus gating units in back line won't work on the other hand gates can be used as unpassable obstacles.
I thought as much. Based on the complaints I've seen I expect tote not to be that dismissive of gates and summons. Maybe I'm just too optimistic but it just makes summoning and gating weaker where creeping is concerned. Summon elementals is on the verge of uselessness as it is 
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On Inferno Balista: Balista is 1500 + 1000,
Balista damage is atack dependent, so in general inferno with it's high atack can make a good use of it, but far from always...
balista damage is ridiculous (10 damage or so) without war machines skill, Even with the skill, you still need your character to have very high atack fast, and this might not happen.
So it is only interesting to spend so much cash if you get both the war machines and balista skill AND high atack... prior to that your balista will be a moskito bite to any decent stack. You'll be better off buying another hero or saving the money for some costly castle upgrade.
I know, sometimes it may take until lvl 8-10 to get warmachines even if it is a common skill. That's why I pick only 1-2 skills to invest on by the time I get them. When you get them though they are always good. The reason? 75% of stats from level ups go to attack and knowledge that boost a ballista equally. Even better with enlightenment
@sdfx
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ans: Depends on getting to Magic Vault(guards have to be big enough so that lvl5 spell is offered).
That's what I had in mind but taking it week 2 may not be easy. If there is one around.
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ans:Arcane armor is not that bad.
Heck no but it's not really a creeping spell. That, earthquake, raise dead and fist of wrath won't help much there. At least lvl 4 with firewall or elementals works anytime.
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ans: Poor necro.. Still, guild lvl4(+archer upgrade) ASAP is the best option. Elementals give infinite mana even with 2 knowledge.
Hehe I delay that until week 3, motn and skellies can defeat most neutrals. Then I go for mage guild 5 to defeat the big tier 7 stacks.
Necro works pretty well with the MMR principles though
And I'm not so sure about the destructive requiring more mana. In many cases a firetrap can prove more effective than a few eldritch arrows but I'm not sure one summoning spell is enough usually. I never build guild fast with dungeon because I aim for dwellings, castle and capitol first.
Thanks Alc I just feel that strengthening your units is what haven is about, an exta skill as defense/luck/enlightenment is a shame not to have. I've faced a haven with ballista and it was barely damaging even on my frail inferno units.
When I gain more haven experience I'll tell if I still have the same opinion
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Azagal
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Smooth Snake
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posted September 05, 2007 02:22 PM |
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Oook so I just got 11 Paladins down.
3 stacks two 4s and one 3. I had 6 Mistresses, 30 Ceberi, 70 Familiars, and ehm something arround 50 demons. First of all these numbers are so because I had a Ceberi and Imp dwelling for me + Nebiros lvl 9 with MotD+Hellfire. I split the misstresses in 3 stacks and then I had a 4 Ceberi stack. The terrain was in my favor. The paladins only had 2 ways to get to my side and I block the first with a Imp, the second with a Ceberi gates.
Blablabla... To make the long part short:
Chainshot which triggered Hellfire did most of the dmg, Demons stole retal, Hero attacked like crazy, Imps and Ceberi also did dmg.
I lost all 6 Succubi, 30 Imps, and allmost all my demons. For fairness sake I have to mention that the healing thing did occur because the pala who couldn't reach my troops was healing his friend but as soon as the first stack was down he joined the fun.
Ok to do it this way my not be even close to your ressource efficency and I have relatively high loses and I had dwellings...ok... but it is possible I'll do some more experiments.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted September 05, 2007 02:30 PM |
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Excruciating strike should help a lot and succubi mistresses seem another good way to keep them healing each other, nice! But I doubt you'll have the gold to get capitol fast, many upgrades that may not allow you to build other dwellings and the terrain may be open another time. That said paladins are not easy for week 2 anyway, losses are expected.
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Azagal
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Smooth Snake
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posted September 05, 2007 03:20 PM |
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Quote:
Excruciating strike should help a lot and succubi mistresses seem another good way to keep them healing each other, nice! But I doubt you'll have the gold to get capitol fast, many upgrades that may not allow you to build other dwellings and the terrain may be open another time. That said paladins are not easy for week 2 anyway, losses are expected.
I allready said that the way I did it is not even close to your ressource efficency and yes I'll get capitol (too) late... And yeah if all 3 Palas would have been able to attack it would most likely have looked diffrent. I will most certainly have much less money/ressources than you when I creep this way buuuut I personally like it more this way. LoL btw I tried Lots of titans week 3 just to see if I would be able to give the ultimate proof that Inferno is not weak... OUCH i'll never try it again 40 Titans and I only managed 25 oO. But ja I'll still work on the Paladin thingy.
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sdfx
Famous Hero
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posted September 05, 2007 04:58 PM |
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Quote:
And I'm not so sure about the destructive requiring more mana. In many cases a firetrap can prove more effective than a few eldritch arrows but I'm not sure one summoning spell is enough usually.
I meant a "true" summon like elementals or a phoenix. Not always 1 summon is enough but compared to destructive much less mana is needed to achieve same creeping goals.
Taking summoning makes sense if it's mainly about reducing shackles gamble. More creeping means more relic hunting so oppenent has less chance to get shackles(or less chance to get enough money to get it).
Also, shackled warlock with destructive only is much vulnerable than a shackled warlock with destructive and summoning.
Such warlock can use destructive to cripple/kill annoying damage dealers fast and then summoning can start to shine: phoenix, arcane armor on hydras, even raise dead may be gamebreaking at some point.
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feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted September 05, 2007 05:52 PM |
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I totally disagree with it. I admit i never tried make a summoning hero with warlock but for me its just doesnt make sense.
First of all i agree with elvin that much more efficient in terms of mana is destructive magic cripping. But not only , with desdtructive you dont even need to build mage guild to creep everything on the map, you dont have to return to castle for spells.
Secondly In final fight summoming wont help you much coz you need to kill opposite creatures as fast as you can because your troops are very fragile. If you start casting summoning spells you wont keep up with the pressure they put on you. Doesnt matter if they got shacklss or no.
Thirdly ..or perhaps most important.. is that you cant do hit and runs with summoning hero. What kind of warlock is that if he cant hit and run? If you cant hit and run its like your opponent having shackless 100% of time.
Once i thought that it might be a good idea to use summoning but a second after i figured out that if i want to use summoning i better pick necro coz they have same spell power and much more defese and mana so all 3 things that are required for summoning hero to be successful. Wizards have litle bit lower sp and def but have other pros so they are great summoners to. Warlocks suck as summoners.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted September 05, 2007 06:27 PM |
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I totally disagree with it. I admit i never tried make a summoning hero with warlock but for me its just doesnt make sense.
Hmmm ... I've actually been wondering a bit about the Summoning Warlock myself - Dungeon has, after all, got Summoning as their major magic school along with Destructive [not that I trust Nival to have put that much thought into that specific aspect, but I think it's worth thinking through].
I guess the huge problem for Warlock will be Mana, but since the Destructive + Summoning Combo gives huge affinity for Sorcery, that might not be quite as much of a problem as one would immediately think - after all, Arcane Training and Erratic Mana will reduce spell costs a lot, and Mana Regenretation is not at all a bad skill for Warlock to have - particularly not, considering that Counterspell is more or less impossible to reach [with current skill requirements]. If you happen to get Enlightenment > Intelligence also, you will actually be pretty well off in most cases, particularly if you also manage to get Destructive > Secrets Of Destruction and build Altar of Knowledge in town(s). Obviously, we are not talking creeping here, but rather late-game survival.
I think it will become necessary to rething Warlock when TOTE comes, because Hit-n-Run will no longer be a viable tactic, as you will loose some of your Artifacts on fleeing. Summon Elementals and Phoenix can possibly be an important means of staying along much longer in combat, particularly Phoenix which will have incredible Hit Point due to Warlock overblown Spell Power [except against Necro, where Elementals will be a favored choice]. This, however, depends on whether you instantly loose if all regular troops are killed? If that is the case, you might have to fall back on Raise Dead, but suddenly, there is very little room for using Destructive. Arcane Armor on Hydras also must increase survival time tremendously, a SP 30 Armor will have 2400 HP and will protect you through 4800 damage, which is significant.
I haven't playtested this, but I believe Summoning might not be the worst means of securing Dungeon survival in longer games, where they will often be very vulnerable without Hit'n'Run.
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ismail222
Known Hero
The Cataclysm
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posted September 05, 2007 06:31 PM |
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Or...if u were lucky enuf to get the crown of sar-issus 
I mean,that solves the whole problem
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Ppl griveing,Ppl
Deceving,Ppl lying,Ppl dying
One Word : Life
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted September 05, 2007 06:35 PM |
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Summoning used to be less mana intensive back in 1.0  Anyways a warlock with decent spellpower can barely summon 2 phoenixes and start flinging empowered spells - at least more than a few of them.
How you survive can be accomplished by 2 things: How fast you can kill your opponent or if you can outlast him. And dungeon is not a faction to outlast others with that defense, once your dragons, furies and raiders are down you cannot keep dealing damage - you just have your hydras getting beaten for more time. If you had both phoenix and arcane armor maybe but there are counters for that.
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ismail222
Known Hero
The Cataclysm
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posted September 05, 2007 06:39 PM |
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A dungeon player will hardly get summoning anyways,at first he needs enlightment and intellgence and he needs luck and sorcery not mentioning destructive magic,dungeon has a few too many required skills little own get another skill,u need to like 20 to start thinkin about summoning ^.^.
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Ppl griveing,Ppl
Deceving,Ppl lying,Ppl dying
One Word : Life
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sdfx
Famous Hero
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posted September 05, 2007 07:40 PM |
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I mean a warlock with enlightenment, sorcery, destructive and summoning. So, it's basically dropping luck for summoning.
Summoning can creep anything very fast while destructive just can't. It can be an important difference..
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feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted September 05, 2007 08:12 PM |
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Quote:
Obviously, we are not talking creeping here, but rather late-game survival.
Ok so lets say that we start a midgame fight. Usually theres one creature to act before your hero goes and it kills your furies. then you cast armor on your hydras then rest of his troops kills 50% of your all troops other then hydras. Now you cast phoenix and he kills all your units except hydras. So you basically are left with phoenix and hydras vs 80% of opponents army. I think thats not very good situation. I think that those 2 castings would be much more effective if you cast 2 destructive spells and hopefully kill 2-4 enemy stacks.
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Summoning can creep anything very fast
Of course you can creep fast with summoning but i can creep 100 vampire lords on day 15 , 40 archdevils on day 17 and 40 titans on week 4 so i dont think i need even faster creeping.
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Cabreva
Tavern Dweller
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posted September 05, 2007 08:17 PM |
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Edited by Cabreva at 20:18, 05 Sep 2007.
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Nice thread, these posts just make me love this game a little bit more =)
I'd like so much to see all these strats in action. I'd like to a game between u guys.
40 titans on week 4 is a must see if it works every game without lost units.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted September 05, 2007 08:18 PM |
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Quote:
Anyways a warlock with decent spellpower can barely summon 2 phoenixes and start flinging empowered spells - at least more than a few of them.
How you survive can be accomplished by 2 things: How fast you can kill your opponent or if you can outlast him. And dungeon is not a faction to outlast others with that defense, once your dragons, furies and raiders are down you cannot keep dealing damage - you just have your hydras getting beaten for more time. If you had both phoenix and arcane armor maybe but there are counters for that.
There are always counters ... There are also counters for Destructive, and if you focus solely on Destructive and come up against someone who knows you're playing Dungeon and has made the appropriate preparations (most notably: Wizard) then you're in deep trouble.
I think it all comes down to an evaluation of time vs. mana for the Warlock. Empowered spells are a luxury because they only buy you 50 % extra damage for 100 % higher mana cost. That's not saying they may not be worth it, but depending on the gain (how many extra stacks will you take out?), they are not always the only path ahead. Fact is that post-TOTE, I think it will be very difficult for Warlock to survive by focusing only on Destructive, simply becase hit'n'run will be much less attractive. How many of those artifacts can you afford to, and dare you, give up to the opponent?
That means Warlock has to find another horse to ride along with Destructive. They might go Might - certainly, a lot of the new units favors that - but will that be enough? Luck is a nice skill in combination with Destructive for the Warlock, but once you've given up on your army as a might force, you have very little gain of this skill other than as a booster for Destructive, and as an unreliable one at that. Sure, it might save your life, but question is whether Summoning would be just as usefull, and perhaps offer a more diverse aim in its uses?
I'm not sure myself, but I think TOTE will force a lot of players to rethink some factions, and I think Dungeon is top of the line due to the blow they receive with the Artifacts. And I think this is worth considering.
EDIT > Also, I must admit that I'm intrigued by the thought that Dungeon perhaps can represent a faction that will receive a late-game benefit from Summoning Magic, which is normally considered mostly a means for power-creeping (Academy, Necropolis).
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What will happen now?
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted September 05, 2007 08:26 PM |
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Edited by Elvin at 20:27, 05 Sep 2007.
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@Felunio
I can guess where the archdevils come from but I have a question. What if you get chain lightning and armageddon. On bfh you can get meteor shower from the vault but if there isn't one what do you do? Normally I'd attack with a few furies, cast and cover the bodies to prevent pitlord summoning but I'd have to get a lucky spell too.
Never tried a phoenix(wizard) on them, destructive and puppet are my usual ways.
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feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted September 05, 2007 08:27 PM |
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Hyhy wait a sec does it mean artifacts will be lost each time you run? That was my idea and i wrote it somewhere here on the forum, i think its great coz some situations were really unfair for other factions but on the other hand banning hit and runs would be unfair for warlocks . I think thats the great balance rule.
I dont think there will be a need to rethink a lot. Dungeon will get a lot of new decent units and i think it will be in good shape. Well.. i dont know about large maps, probably they will still suck there but i dont think that it will change a lot to small medium maps.
My favorite spell of all times is meteor shower. If i cant get that i want fireball. If i cant get that i want implosion then circle of ice.
I just hit devils with whatever i got i take sometimes matriarchs to cast slow. I just make sure i got at least 500 dmg area spell. I like circle of ice more than chain lightning..unless i got trident. Generally i use a spell i got boosting dmg artifact for.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted September 05, 2007 08:38 PM |
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Yeah probably the witches can make a difference. Something else then, with haven do you use marksmen and fodder with buffs only or do you take other units too? I know that can work with Dougal but did not try other heroes.
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feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted September 05, 2007 08:45 PM |
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I havent tried other heroes either
I just play dougal and vittorio. Why play worse heroes if you can play better ones? I always use marksman peasants as a meatsields and squires as damage reduction and a meat shield.
Tts enough to have 2x1 witch. You dont want to lose a lot. Just cast 2 times slow with each.. it lasts 2 turns so its enought to slow them down a litle bit. Exp sorcery is needed and enough mana. Once i forgot to check my mana and i casted 1 empowered imposion too much and i was left with 1 scout against 3 devils and no mana to cast any destrctive spell
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Empowered spells are a luxury
I wouldnt say they are a luxury. I always cast it by default (as Doomforge said) Sometimes just when i can kill something with normal spell then i use normal. When you pay attention to your mana lvl and use it wisely you usually wont have mana problems whether you cast empowered spells or not.
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