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| Thread: Do you use artificer and is it effective? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · NEXT» |
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phoenixreborn
Promising
Legendary Hero
Unicorn
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posted October 02, 2007 04:37 PM |
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Poll Question:
Do you use artificer and is it effective?
I'd like to see a discussion here in this thread of artificer and whether or not it's useful.
I'm particularly interested in people who play multi online but anyone is welcome.
You can consider it by itself or in comparison to other racials like necromancy and avenger. You should also consider difficulty level. I'm guessing most people play on hard, at least that's what happens on TOH.
Poll prompted by this thread:
http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/1851065692/m/9091084395
Elodin is arguing that the resource demands are too high.
Chuckles is arguing that it is feasible to use and that you can break down the artifacts to use the resources for building.
In the thread Elodin suggested that many people around the forums think that artificer is useless (at least you can't get significant use out of it). I wanted to see if people really think so.
I don't care so much about the poll but I would like to see some discussion. Especially since we are nearing the end of the heroes v cycle so if there are changes to be made there isn't much time.
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kermit
Known Hero
Soul hunter
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posted October 02, 2007 04:42 PM |
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It's not of much use in creeping, but it definitely is a good idea to have mini artifacts in a hero fight.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted October 02, 2007 04:47 PM |
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I find it necessary to survive after week 3-4, especially against factions that rely on their army or on crazy destructive power - cough*dungeon*cough!
I just do not bother to build it on week 2 mainly because I'm not sure if I can be back in time to dismantle them should I get a short supply in something.
Yes it is possible to do but I creep with magic anyway and along with master gremlins I see that I don't really need it. Not that I'd get much of a bonus out of it on week 2.
Normally I'll start getting an artie or two on week 4 when I have built my dwellings and mage guild 4-5. But I skip rakshasas until then.
On tote it will be different because the arties will grow in power as you increase your knowledge so it could be very beneficial to get one early.
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phoenixreborn
Promising
Legendary Hero
Unicorn
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posted October 02, 2007 04:52 PM |
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Unfortunately:
Quote:
Originally posted by Jolly-Joker:
Since I switched arties around between Faiz and Nur and nothing happened, but I got a message in another game when entering town again that my arti was strengthened I think that this is working only when you enter a town (in which case things are upgraded). I can't say for sure, though.
That doesn't make much sense though because you could just improve it manually.
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George
Adventuring Hero
Dragon Lord
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posted October 02, 2007 05:21 PM |
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Mini artifacts are very nice but I found it very difficult to equip an entire army with these things  . Of course, if you can get the necesary resources they are a must  .
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted October 02, 2007 05:31 PM |
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Edited by Elvin at 17:31, 02 Oct 2007.
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Yeah but they are not to make a 3lvl artie per unit  That would be ideal but you won't have the resources so you must pick your key units to have a better artie and maybe a lvl1 at the others. I rarely build lvl 3 arties.
There are some funny combinations as armour breaking artie on all units Someone had tried that on toh and unless you pay attention to the unit stats you'll have no idea why your units die so quickly 
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skullman
Famous Hero
banned
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posted October 02, 2007 05:56 PM |
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I rather use artifacts on the 1-3 tiers. The others are good enough so they don't need artifacts.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted October 02, 2007 06:27 PM |
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But it's the others you care about in a good battle. If your titan's/genies/rakshasas attack, luck or initiative is not boosted what do you get out of artificer then? More decent lower tiers?
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emilsn
Legendary Hero
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posted October 02, 2007 07:01 PM |
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If you can effort it, yes sir! Some Ini. is very useful. But else use your time on something else.
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Don't walk behind me; I may not
lead. Don't walk in front of me;
I may not follow. Just walk
beside me and be my friend.
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dschingi
Famous Hero
the guy with the dragon golem
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posted October 02, 2007 07:06 PM |
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Edited by dschingi at 19:07, 02 Oct 2007.
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I think everyone agrees if I say Artificer is a very map dependent special. In some games you may not use it at all, e.g. in maps like Former friends. In longer games and rich maps it can be a different story. Like many toh maps are rather rich on resources so if the game lasts long enough you can make quite a lot artifacts. Then again the top players break garrisions very quickly so they don't have so much time for getting the required resources.
I would prefer lvl1 mini arties to have a lower resource cost, like 2 or 3 instead of 5. That would get you at least some bonus for quick games. The lvl2 and 3 costs could remain at their current costs 
Quote:
That doesn't make much sense though because you could just improve it manually.
Well at least you don't have to do it by yourself anymore. Re-making lvl2-3 artifacts on your army takes a very long time, which is something that definitely needed an easier to use interface. That's similar to choosing favoured enemies but even worse. Now imagine you finally step out of castle after you re-made all of them just to notice that you forgot to equip the knowledge bonus arties 
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted October 02, 2007 07:25 PM |
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I'm sorry, but you misunderstand what I believe about the artificer skill. Here are the questions that I would propose for a more detailed discussion of the artificer skill. If I knew how to make a multiple question poll I would do it, but it is probably to have it discussed in one thread anyways.
A. In the first 2 weeks:
1) is the artificer skill consistantly of significant use on most maps on heroic difficulty?
2) is the artificer skill of roughly the same value as the racial abilities on heroic difficulty?
3) will using the artificer skill delay building dwellings, mage guild levels, or other town structures on heroic difficulty?
4) is the artificer skill roughly as easy to use as other racial specials?
B In weeks 2-4:
1) is the artificer skill consistantly of significant use on most maps on heroic difficulty?
2) is the artificer skill of roughly the same value as the racial abilities on heroic difficulty?
3) will using the artificer skill delay building dwellings, mage guild levels, or other town structures on heroic difficulty?
4) is the artificer skill roughly as easy to use as other racial specials?
C As map size increases does it become harder for a wizard to travel back to his starting town to make and upgrade artifacts?
D Should anything be changed to make the artificer skill more convient to use?
E Can you think of anything else that you would like to see addressed related to artifacts?
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Revelation
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Nirual
Famous Hero
Imbued Ballista
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posted October 02, 2007 07:45 PM |
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Arties are great, but it takes a lot of management to get a good use of it. And like Avengers, it makes you very dependant on your towns.
And I personally hate how those skills have no effect at all in those campaign missions where you have no towns. Gating works just as well, Training still gets you the retaliation bonus, Necromancers DE pools are mostly dependant on heroes now, Runes work even better since you need no resources for building, and Blood Rage also works nicely, but those two racials don't do anything without a town.
I think their effects at least will change outside of towns as your knowledge increases in TotE, which helps one of the issues. But on large maps, you'd still have to do a lot of backtracking to use your resources well.
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In ur base killing ur doods... and raising them as undeads.
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sdfx
Famous Hero
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posted October 02, 2007 08:15 PM |
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First of all artificer(skill itself - not perks) is purely MIGHT - it has nothing to do with magic. It's a skill that allows academy to develop "might superiority" vs magic heroes - necromancers, warlocks and even demonlords(weak defense vs artificered initiative).
So simply put: artificer > magic heroes and demonlords
Might heroes should be killed by rushing. Later in the game there is no way that artificer will compensate enough the lack of might stats. So, vs might heroes, artificer is not so gamebreaking - rushing while magic stats dominate is.
Early game rush: magic heros(+stupid hit and run..) > might heroes
Wizards don't get might stats - they get magic stats. That's why their troops are pathetic at the beginning, they can't fight as effectively as they would under might hero's command, not really a lot artifacts/resources/troops/... may be gathered this way. Fortunatelly, building guild lvl4(maybe lvl5) and library ASAP helps A LOT. Then, the spells will determine how the game will look like. If frenzy is in then a wizard should get dark, if arma then destructive etc.
If a phoenix is in guild then, depending on the map, it may get pretty ridiculous because a lvl4-5 wizard(with summoning) can cast a phoenix.. That means he can kill/break things on the map that a lvl4-5 hero really should not. So, a simple scout can creep/spam magic like mad and that will result with:
-more resources(more powerful artificer)/troops/artifacts/everything..
-owning enemy scouts
-later may mean biting enemy main hero with(for example) arma
Still, it's VERY map dependant. Academy is most effective on open maps with multiple paths and creeping areas where a lot of scout wars will happen - wizard scout > non-wizard scout
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GenieLord
Honorable
Legendary Hero
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posted October 02, 2007 09:15 PM |
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Artificer is one of the most useful racial skills in HOMM5. You can give every creature what it's missing. I like to give the Gremlins and the Djinns extra HP, Speed and iniative for the Golems and the Rakshasas, etc.
On the beginning, when build buildings, it's quite hard to afford the costs of creating artifacts. I wait a bit with them, and create them only when I don't save my resouces for buildings anymore. By that time, I'll probably need to use the artifacts anyway.
Quote:
First of all artificer(skill itself - not perks) is purely MIGHT - it has nothing to do with magic. It's a skill that allows academy to develop "might superiority" vs magic heroes - necromancers, warlocks and even demonlords(weak defense vs artificered initiative).
I can't see how Artificer is a mighty skill; Magical artifacts that increase the creatures power. It sounds pretty magical to me.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted October 02, 2007 09:27 PM |
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I think he was referring to the practical application and benefits.
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sdfx
Famous Hero
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posted October 02, 2007 09:36 PM |
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Edited by sdfx at 21:41, 02 Oct 2007.
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Yes, I consider artificer as might because of its direct effect on troops - it doesn't help wizard to cast spells better. Also, it fits the "general" might vs magic philosophy:
might = strong with many troops later
magic = strong with not big armies early
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aulfgar
Hired Hero
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posted October 02, 2007 11:46 PM |
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I think however that Might vs Magic is wrong in that context.
Might is X army where the hero Massively boosts the stats of their critters.
Magic is X army where the hero boosts the critters with spells and is a massive damager or CC by himself.
Basically a magic army is not necessarily smaller, but the critters typically get more of a benefit from Might than Magic. Magic however comes into its own with Puppet Master, Blind, Frenzy, Slow, Haste, Resurrection and the like to counter balance the mightiness of the opponents hero.
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phoenixreborn
Promising
Legendary Hero
Unicorn
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posted October 03, 2007 04:51 AM |
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My questions in return are what is the point of using artificer in the first 2 weeks? Why is that so important? Are you having problems creeping? If not then why do you need that boost? It's a rare map that is going to be over in 2 weeks.
Chuckles gave examples where he was using them in the first 2 weeks. You said it wasn't significant. What would be significant? Probably something overpowered.
Are we including subskills in the discussion? MOTW is important and counterspell can be. Those are arguably better than deadeye shot or hellfire in the first 2 weeks.
And if we are discussing other racials why are fortress runes so damn cheap?
Another question is should balancing decisions be made around the heroic difficulty? Why not around hard difficulty if that's what most online matches are being played at?
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted October 03, 2007 06:59 AM |
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Quote:
My questions in return are what is the point of using artificer in the first 2 weeks? Why is that so important? Are you having problems creeping? If not then why do you need that boost? It's a rare map that is going to be over in 2 weeks.
Chuckles gave examples where he was using them in the first 2 weeks. You said it wasn't significant. What would be significant? Probably something overpowered.
Are we including subskills in the discussion? MOTW is important and counterspell can be. Those are arguably better than deadeye shot or hellfire in the first 2 weeks.
And if we are discussing other racials why are fortress runes so damn cheap?
Another question is should balancing decisions be made around the heroic difficulty? Why not around hard difficulty if that's what most online matches are being played at?
I don't use it in the first 2 weeks. Examples were made of use in first 2 weeks on official board and my question is is that use significant? Isn't it more significant to build another mage guild level instead? Also, do other factions get to use their racial in first 2 weeks? No, I don't want any overpowered thing. I always call for balance between factions.
Your poll was about artificer skill, so I thought that was what we discuss here? Counterspell is not part of wizard's racial skills BTW. He has MOTW, magic mirror, and consume artifact.
The racials should be equally balanced for all factions for all difficulties IMHO. If artificer becomes harder to use on heroic then necromancy, gating, ect should be harder to use also for balance purposes.
I agree that runemage racial is too cheap for the power it gives.
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Duncan
Famous Hero
The Pathfinder
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posted October 03, 2007 07:13 AM |
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I use it especially in the later part of the game (mostly large maps) when you don't need much of resources anymore and preparing for a large battle. Equipping Titans with Amulet of Haste is never a bad idea.
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But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it.
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