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friendofgunnar
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able to speed up time
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posted December 17, 2007 08:26 PM |
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Scamz
I find scams fascinating. This thread is to inform people about the latest scams. If you find anything interesting on the net, or even better, if you have a personal scam story, please share it.
I just ran across this article by Peter John White. (I'll cut and paste in case the link dies...)
What got me thinking on this topic is I recently ordered something but they wouldn't give out the tracking number due to "increased fraudulent activity with tracking numbers". I have no idea what that means. (it's a 19,000+ ebay merchant)
The only time I've been scammed I think is when I bought a posture improver from an ad in the back of Parade magazine and it never came. 
and there's that one time I lost 2 dollars to the 3 card monte guy on the street.
also
I just remembered, I gave 10 bucks to this one smooth-talking dude who said his car had broken down. hahaha, that's the last time that happened.
Anyway, here's the article:
Credit Card Scams
by Peter Jon White
Having had a web business since 1997, I've gotten used to scam artists trying to extract cash or free products from me. Most of these scammers are from Nigeria and Indonesia, where credit card fraud is considered a sport, much like soccer, only the participants get paid better. Their most common ploy is to place a large order for bike parts. One guy ordered 14 sets of Mavic wheels from us. He sent me three credit card numbers and asked me to split the charge amongst the three cards. All three cards had the same first 12 numbers. Only the last 4 numbers were different. Of course the cards were not his.
What he does is start with a Visa number that he knows is good and then finds a Visa/Mastercard vender who will cooperate with him. He has the vender try a series of numbers and expiration dates starting from the good number that he already has. So if the good card has 6335 as the last 4 numbers, he tries to run a small charge using 6336 as the last four numbers. He also has to try many expiration dates. It's a time consuming process, but potentially very profitable. If that works, he just voids that charge and he knows he can use that credit card number for a scam. He just keeps repeating the process until he has a whole pile of CC numbers that he knows is good.
Next, he needs to find a sucker to take his order and ship it. Since the card numbers are good, a vender in the US might just run the charges, (let's say it's a $12,000 purchase spread over 4 cards) and ship the goods via Fedex or UPS. It could be three weeks before the US vender gets a notice from his bank that the charges have been disputed by the rightful card owner, who, it turns out lives in Illinois, not Nigeria. But by then the goods have arrived in Nigeria, and there's simply no way to get them back. The vender is out not only the cost of the goods, but the shipping charges as well. And the rightful owner of the card is out some $50 or so, plus a lot of time dealing with the issue and getting a new account number.
What this means to the average consumer, is that in order to have a crook use your credit card number, the crook never has to actually see your card. The crook doesn't even have to know who you are or where you live. He doesn't care. He doesn't need to care, because lots of venders just type in the credit card number given by a customer and never check that the customer's address is correct, or ask for the "V" or "VCC" code on the back of the card (the last three numbers in the signature box on the back). So anybody with a credit card can become the victim of a scam, even if you never even use the card.
My advice is to regularly check your credit card balance online to see if there are any charges that you didn't make. And if you accept credit cards in your business, I recommend that you never ship outside the USA to any address other than the billing address of the credit card. Confirm with your CC provider that the address the customer gives you is correct, and be sure to get the "V" code from the back of the card. And, never, ever, ship to Nigeria or Indonesia without first being paid in full via Western Union. Don't ship until you have the cold cash in your warm hand! Don't accept foreign cashier's checks either, they can be forged easily, and it will be weeks after you have deposited the cashier's check before you find out that it is no good. You can take a Western Union money order and once you cash it, if it's bogus, it's Western Union's problem. They're pretty good at knowing if their own money orders are OK.
The risk of dealing with people from Nigeria and Indonesia is very high simply because the governments there are so corrupt. If you were able to contact the police in either country, chances are they know the scammer already. The scammer may well be related to the local police chief. So don't waste your time trying to contact the government to report the problem. I've sent faxes to local police depts in both countries detailing the activities of credit card scammers in their towns. I've never heard back. And be careful about other countries as well. I've had a scammer tell me he was in Singapore, but when I tracked down the address he gave me, it was in Indonesia, not Singapore. I'm now getting lots of these scams claiming to be from Singapore.
But you can have some fun with these jerks, if you have time to kill. The first time this happened to me I called the issuing bank and reported the card numbers. Then after a few hours, I emailed the scammer back, saying that one or more of the card numbers he gave me were declined by the bank. Within a few hours I received another email from the crook, giving me several more credit card numbers, all with the same first 12 digits. I called the bank and give them those numbers as well. Of course, as soon as I called the numbers in to the bank, the accounts were closed and the true card owners notified.
Then I emailed the scammer again and said that the new card numbers had also been declined. What would he like me to do? Would he like to pay via Western Union, or a cashier's check? Or does he have another credit card he would like to use?
Well, another email came in with several more card numbers and the process went on. Eventually, I told the crook that everything is now fine and the order has shipped. He got very excited and wanted to know the tracking number for the order. Emails arrived every hour or so asking for the tracking number. If I replied, it was to say that the computer we use for shipping is out of order at the moment so I can't give him the number, but perhaps if he calls me later in the day I can give it to him.
A few hours later the phone rang. It's the scammer, wanting the tracking number. But the line seems bad and gosh but I can't hear him very well. Could he perhaps call back? He calls again. I repeated several times until I get bored and asked him for some more credit card numbers so I can call the bank and have those accounts closed, like I did with all of the other numbers he sent previously.
Click.
As of June 2005, these scams are so common I'm getting 3 or 4 large orders a day from these creeps. As you can well imagine, I don't have time to spend wasting their time. I just delete every email that comes in. I've also been getting emails from people who have either been scammed, or been targeted by scammers. And I've learned about a few more scams. One that is slowly catching on is the wire transfer scam. A Nigerian will place a large order and ask to pay via wire transfer. You might think this is pretty safe, since nobody but you can do a transfer from your account to another. But the internet is making life very easy for thieves these days. You know how you can set up with your fitness center or whatever to have them automatically get their monthly fee transferred from your bank account to theirs? Somehow these scammers can set up with your bank to do the same thing, or at least something similar, as long as they have your account number and the identification number of your bank. What happens is, you give the scammer your bank account number and any other info that he would need to wire you money. And then he can go to this web site, http://www.qchex.com. From there he pretends to be you. He creates an account with QCHEX and places an order with some other vender promising to pay with a QCHEX check. The unsuspecting vendor receives the QCHEX check, and ships the order. You never see a wire transfer to your account from the Nigerian. What you do see is a QCHEZ check drawn on your account. You call your bank and say, "What's this?". The bank explains it to you. You tell them you have never heard of QCHEX. The bank returns the QCHEX check to the unsuspecting vendor, who is out the value of the check since he has already shipped the goods to Nigeria.
Bottom line. Never give your bank details to anyone you are not absolutely sure is a legitimate business.
Lastly, I am not a clearing house for internet scams. Nor am I here to give you advice on what to do if someone attempts to scam you. I can't respond to emails about this subject. I offer this article simply to help others. It's all I can do. Deleting these email scams takes up all my time! ;-)
Peter White
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russ
Promising
Supreme Hero
blah, blah, blah
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posted December 17, 2007 11:01 PM |
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Aside from the good old violent crime, there are a LOT of scams in Russia. Here are some interesting street scams:
For example, you walk and the gentleman ahead "accidentally" drops a big juicy roll of money. A guy walking next to you looks at you with a deep look and suggests to split it 50/50 since noone is around. You agree, the guy leaves, then the original guy realizes that he lost the money. Someone shows up who saw you taking it. They start to make noise and a "cop" shows up (the scariest thing is that he actually MIGHT be a real cop with real handcuffs and the authority to use them). You get scared and give him the money, but obviously, a half of it is missing and quite obviously noone have seen the other guy. Congratulations, you now owe the guy a couple thousand of dollars that he is missing.
Or how about being in a hurry and following closely some well dressed lady who is also in a hurry. Suddenly she stops and due to Newton's law of inertia, you end up slamming into her, "breaking" her very expensive shoe. She starts complaining, telling you how much it'll cost to repair the damage you've done, then some knight in shiny armor appears to defend the lady against a mean villain.
And those are the least harmful ones. There are some that are just MEAN.
As for my personal experience, I've been scammed twice in my life. Once it was PAYPAL who nearly stole my $750 from me. Yes, they CAN do it. It is in the contract you've accepted. They can freeze your account indefinitely for "security reasons". I was one of the lucky ones who ended up getting it back after a year (thanks to the class action lawsuits that made them slightly more ethical). You might say not getting back $750 for over a year is nothing, well... imagine yourself as a small business owner who had his/her $100,000 account frozen for a few years not being able to use the money again for his business. Not to mention that some people NEVER got anything back from them!
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kookastar
Honorable
Legendary Hero
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posted December 18, 2007 01:39 AM |
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My dad has a very big heart, is extremely intellegent but also commonsenseless alot of the time. He is the perfect target for scamz.
There have been lots but here are the two most prominent in my mind.
First, of course,is TIME SHARE.
Ohh yeah uhuh, as far as I know he only has THREE. 
If anyone is interesting in purchasing two of them please contact me via hcm
The other scam that I experienced with them was in the US. Along the highway between Vegas and Utah, at some secluded service station {gas}. The scam was basically this: As you go inside to pay for your fuel, one of the "mechanics" looks at your tyres and appoaches you because they are so "unsafe". It can be a dangly bit, or a bubble, or whatever. Then they of course offer to sell you new tyres and replace them then and there. Ohhhh and if you are really kind and trusting, they then tell you that you can't have an "odd" tyre because of blah blah. So you have to buy 2!
Anyway... I was sitting in the snow, angry and upset that these people were ripping off my dad, I voiced my opinion very loudly but he just believed them 
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uhuh
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Binabik
Responsible
Legendary Hero
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posted December 18, 2007 01:50 AM |
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Quote:
As you go inside to pay for your fuel, one of the "mechanics" looks at your tyres and appoaches you because they are so "unsafe".
That's a very old scam, and it happens mainly in the western US in more remote areas. The problem is that much of the time it happens in small towns and the entire town is probably doing the same thing. So it doesn't do any good to go to the next station to get a second opinion.
Oh, btw, when I was 17 I fell for that scam in New Mexico. Only it was shock absorbers, not tires. I know WAY too much about cars to fall for it now.
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Trogdor
Legendary Hero
Words in a custom title
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posted December 18, 2007 07:22 AM |
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I heard that in Adelaide that there are a few scam artists who pretend to be homeless in order to fuel their drug habits. I've come across a few personally. There is one guy the other month who had a shopping trolley and I presumed he was homeless until I suspected that he had earphones on. That's when I knew he was scamming. I'm not sure what happened with this other guy earlier this month on the last day of TAFE (I had finished my lessons earlier). who said he was moving out and I gave him change because he looked like he had a likeable personality, but you have to be very careful.
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"Through the power of the dollar you can communicate with the dead." - Artu
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friendofgunnar
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able to speed up time
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posted December 18, 2007 10:02 AM |
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Quote:
As for my personal experience, I've been scammed twice in my life. Once it was PAYPAL who nearly stole my $750 from me. Yes, they CAN do it. It is in the contract you've accepted. They can freeze your account indefinitely for "security reasons". I was one of the lucky ones who ended up getting it back after a year (thanks to the class action lawsuits that made them slightly more ethical).
it's funny, I just ran into this place today. I've had no problems with Paypal but I'll be more careful in the future...
EDIT
heheh I just found these smileys:
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friendofgunnar
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posted December 18, 2007 11:34 AM |
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WOW
I just found a post that pretty much explains everything.
It's at paypalsucks.com
explains how things came to be the way they are.
copypaste:
January 19th, 2003
Post by former PayPal employee #1
I was a "middle management type" with Pay-Pal until leaving recently- partially due to my disgust over their internal security policies which have led to the mountain of complaints seen on this and other similar boards. There aren't many PP whistleblowers; during your "exit interview" a soon-to-be-former manager is warned, intimidated and threatened against doing the very thing I'm doing right now. But since I left to start my own business, there's not a thing they can do to me.
Pay-Pal DID start as an honest, legitimate company with an innovative service concept. However, in my opinion, this concept can never actually WORK in the real world because there are legions of scammers all over the globe with reams of stolen credit card info and identifications just WAITING to swoop down on any new "payment service" like this that comes along. Credit-card transactions where the "card is not present" and thus personally examined by a clerk account for the overwhelming majority of fraud transactions. Comparitavely, there's very LITTLE credit card fraud at Wal-Mart, because the cashier actually sees both you and the card- and can ask for supporting identification at the point of sale. Unfortunatly, the high-risk, "card not present" transactions are the ONLY kind of transaction a company like PP can do, and boy- did the con artists find them in a hurry! The basic con was (and is) to use stolen identification information to open new PP accounts, funnel money into them with stolen credit card numbers, then transfer the money OUT of the account before PP gets the charge-back and can freeze it. Unfortunately, despite PP's claims of having a "tough anti-fraud program", these people are mostly impossible to catch, because when opening a new PP account, they DO have all the proper-appearing ID information (which was stolen or conned out of unsuspecting individuals, most of whom have never HEARD of Pay-Pal). When fraud is uncovered and the account is checked out, the perp is almost never caught, since it was almost always opened under a stolen identity, and he's long abandoned the mail-drop.
Yes, the application process COULD be made more stringent, but it is felt (probably correctly) that a brand-new customer would certainly balk at doing things like sending in notorized copies of their driver's licence and so forth. So an "alternate strategy" for offsetting the charge-back losses slowly evolved at PP. It's the perfect scheme really; since PP can't usually catch the scammers and dosen't want to loose customer base by making things more stringent to start with- they decided to simply re-coup their chargebacks from the pockets (and accounts) of good, solid people under the easily-defensible and impossible-to-criticize guize of "Fraud Prevention and Enforcement".. Simply put, if you're a seller and somebody pays you with a stolen credit card, you're targeted by PP security and might very well have your account siezed, "investigated", closed- and the money retained by PP. (Yes... they simply "add" it to their revenues and spend it like any other income. You basically gave them permission to do this under the "terms and conditions" you originally agreed to. No, I KNOW you didn't really read it, but I bet you will the next time!). Even if the person paying you has NOT used a stolen credit card, he could have been been flagged by PP as "somebody to keep an eye on" for any one of numerous reasons. If he does business with YOU, especially multiple times- you're frozen. OCCASIONALLY some lucky soul will complain about the siezure, and when the case is "investigated" by PP he is "cleared" and the money unfrozen. This good fortune has nothing to do with an actual "investigation" (there aren't any, really). Pay-Pal WILL unfreeze a small percentage of the accounts (as a future defense against a potential class action), so you MAY benefit from a simple luck of the draw. See, if it ever comes down to a massive class-action lawsuit, or even testimony before the SEC or other regulatory body, PP wants to be able to stand up in court and say "But your honor, we DON'T just freeze accounts and pocket the money. We really DO perform a painstaking investigation. Here's the proof... look at all these people who WERE suspected, but were then cleared by our "crack security staff"! If this was really a scam, why would we have given all of THIS this money back?"
I'm amused by the posts that say, "But I've been a good customer of PP since the beginning and have paid thousands in fees.... why would they have done this to ME?" Let me answer that with a hypothetical question: If you were an unregulated financial services company so embittered by fraud losses that you, yourself, had completely lost whatever moral compass you might have once possessed, what would YOU rather have: a happy, content customer whos business might account for $5000 worth of fees over the next 10 years, or a person who's pissed off and will NEVER do business with you again, BUT you've got his $5000 up-front, TODAY- siezed directly out of his account with no appeal possible. Believe me, it's a no-brainer to these people. They have sort of developed a wierd corporate mindset wherein their past (and ongoing) victomization at the hands of con-artists somehow gives them license to "pass it along" to others. Think the E-Bay purchase will make it all better? Guess again. If ANY company knows the reality of on-line schermes and scams, it's E-Bay. While they certainly know that a nice chunk of their fees come from people who ultimately turn out to be thieves (but hey... their money is just as green as that of the honest folks) do you think E-Bay wants to open THEMSELVES (or a subsidary company) up to the same risks as their bidders are exposed to? No way.
On another issue, I see lots of complaints from those who have BOUGHT things and paid through PP who find their credit cards suddenly drained and/ or billed multiple times for the same transaction. The answer is simple; PP has very lax hiring procedures, ESPECIALLY compared to the standards any bank would impose on anybody employed in a similar position of trust. But don't forget- PP ISN'T a bank, so they feel no obligation to hire (and, of course, compensate) people as if they were. Unlike the "account freezing" thing, the scams pulled on buyer's credit cards aren't a part of any "master plan" by the company, but simply the work of some dishonest employees who nonetheless have access to ALL of a customer's personal information. Yes, it's scary. Schemes are rampent where a PP employee has a cousin or friend set up an account to receive payments in another name. Since it's an "inside job", these "phantoms" will, of course, sail through the PP application process with flying colors- even if all of the infomation was simply "made up". Then your easily-accessable credit card number is used as payment for phony "auctions" and so forth done through the phantom account. The PP employee who actually approves this transaction might very be the one running the scheme! Given their system and the way the computers are networked together, this is pretty simple for almost any employee to do. Even if you DON'T have access to the PP customer database, you almost certainly have lunch in the break room or visit at the water cooler with someone who does. Many people have been quietly terminated for this (rarely, if ever prosecuted- since this would be a huge black eye for the company), and in reality, THIS is where the majority of PP security and investigative resources go: to policing their shoddily-selected workforce.
So, If you STILL want to use PP- here are a few tips for merchants to avoid being taken by them. But really; from a moral and ethical point of view- would any decent person want to be in a position of supporting this ongoing Ponzi scheme- even if it COULD be guarenteed that you, personally wouldn't be ripped off by it?
1. Give PP only ONE account to access, then make sure that the monies are cleaned out the moment deposited funds become available- and transferred to an account that PP can't touch.
2. After somebody has paid you through PP, NEVER do business with that individual a SECOND time- at least not through Pay Pal. This is a huge red flag to them, since scammers who get hold of a good credit card number but don't know the spending limit will "hammer" it through the same PP account several times until it's maxed . Don't forget- they're looking for ANY remote justification for siezing your money- since under the "terms and conditions" you agreed that this was OK with you.
3. Never, ever, do business with anybody from Asia or Africa. ESPECIALLY Nigeria. With PP "security", you're venturing onto slippery ice even if you deal with a bona-fide American with an African or Asian sounding name. No kidding. I don't mean to sound like a racist here- but that's simply the way it is: an automatic "guilty until proven innocent" red flag.
4. If you ARE frozen, accept the reality that this isn't some mistake that can be corrected by an e-mail or phone call to a nice customer service person; you've been SCREWED, and it's NO accident or misunderstanding. This company is now your enemy and is probably not inclined to do anything to help you, unless you're one of those unfrozen for "show" purposed as described above- but I'll bet they don't even account for 2%. So don't waste your time with "customer-no-service" e-mails and phone calls. Yes, most of the contact numbers listed on this site are accurate and the people listed are real employees- but believe me; they generally have NO power to say anything but "NO." If you've been frozen, your "case" goes to a special group within "customer service" who's entire mission statement could be summed up as "we've got the money, we're going to keep the money, so explain this to the customer in any plausible fashion- as long as the final answer remains ''we get to keep the money'." Also, these folks will oftern be extremely rude to you- which is all part of the plan; you weren't really supposed to call them in the first place, and they don't want you to even THINK about calling back. Those repeated requests for copies of drivers licences and so forth are simply a ruse and a stall tactic. Believe me... they KNOW who you are, and this information does NOT keep getting misplaced. They're wearing you down, and it usually works. By the THIRD request for you to gather and send the same information, they most people will simply give up and say "it's not worth it." Don't threaten to sue or waste your money having a lawyer send PP a threatening letter, 'cause it dosen't work. People who SAY "I'm gonna sue" DON'T 99.9% of the time, and PP knows this. What DOES work is to hire an attorney and actually FILE SUIT. When they're hit with requests for discovery and are faced with having to send executives to depositions and so forth- most of the time your case will be "re-investigated". You'll then be cleared and your money will be returned. If that dosen't fix it, then, for some reason Pay-Pay must really, really feel that you ARE scamming. Most people simply won't go this far, since hiring an attorney, filing suit and so forth actually exceeds what PP has taken from you- and believe me, they DO know this.
For buyers the answer is real simple: NEVER use PP under any circumstances. Ever. You simply have NO control over who has access to your information, and your bank wouldn't touch some of these PP people with a ten-foot pole. Want to use a credit card to pay for an auction item but don't want to get double and fraudently billed? Go down to the bank, use that same credit card to buy a cashiers check, then mail it to the seller. You have the exact same protection doing business that way as you do through Pay Pal, but you avoid the numerous risks of involving yourself with them- which, of course, go WAY beyond having to eat a thousand dollar loss because some guy didn't send your merchandise.
Looking for an alternate payment service? I can't honestly recommend one, since all of the others are prey to the same vultures that hit PP so hard. So I guess the system that works the best is one I'd simply call "pay, pal... "; you simply do business the old fashioned way: check out the seller as best you can, write a check and hope for the best- or simply deal locally. Given the realities and risks of "card not present" credit card transactions, I can't honestly see how any company who tries to do what Pay-Pal does could avoid becoming just like them, or else find themselves forced out of business under a mountain of chargebacks.
Any attorney who has a pending class-action suit against Pay-Pal and could benefit from my testimony can contact me at: expay-palguy@wildmail.com. Similary, I'd love to hear from any former Pay-Pal managers who also feel morally obligated to "come out of the closet". I KNOW you know what this company is all about- and perhaps it's time we did the right thing by the people we unwittingly helped them loot. It would help me sleep better at night- how about you? Sorry, as much as I feel for you individual victims, I won't deal with individual court actions against PP- as to do so would doubtlessly consume ALL of my time, since there are so many. Similary, I also can't intervene with the company on behalf of somebody who has been wronged. Follow my suggestion for getting your account unfrozen, and that would truly be your best shot.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ex Pay-Pal manager
Originally posted: http://www.paypalsucks.com/forums/showthread.php?fid=6&tid=1529&old_block=0
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russ
Promising
Supreme Hero
blah, blah, blah
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posted December 18, 2007 05:29 PM |
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Quote:
I've had no problems with Paypal but I'll be more careful in the future...
Just because nothing has happened to you in the past when you've played Russian Roulette doesn't mean you should continue playing it.
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kookastar
Honorable
Legendary Hero
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posted December 18, 2007 08:33 PM |
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There are sooo many credit card scamz out there too though - I would suggest more than paypal issues... My card was frozen after using it at a supermarket in the US, because the company they used to process the transaction was identified as unsafe. I had to wait for a new card etc etc. It seems in the US these non-banks do process our financial information often. Capitalism at its best huh .
I feel anxious about using my card, now paypal. Really though, if purchasing online there isn't really another viable option... I guess, like gambling, we just have to ensure that what is available to lose is something we can live with losing :|
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uhuh
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Binabik
Responsible
Legendary Hero
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posted December 18, 2007 09:35 PM |
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That thing about PayPal is pretty old. There's probably some small amount of truth to it, but it's also a pissed off ex-employee with an obvious bias who might be outright lying.
The way I look at it,we just need to use common sense. Beyond that, there's not much we can do about some of this stuff, unless it gets to the point of dropping out of society.
Kooka, I'm not sure what you ran into when they froze your account. I would consider that rare though. It may have something to do with being a foreign account. I hear the same type of thing with Americans using credit cards in other countries (I especially hear this about Europe).
I don't know how the banking system is in Aus, but I know a lot of countries have national banks (i.e. Bank of England). In the US, all banks are private (and there are hundreds of them, maybe thousands). Credit card companies are also private, but not owned by banks. Banks have agreements with CC companies to issue CCs under the bank name, but the card itself is not "owned" by the bank. I "think' most of the CC transactions are handled by another private company whose sole business is to do this.
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russ
Promising
Supreme Hero
blah, blah, blah
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posted December 20, 2007 04:56 PM |
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Edited by russ at 16:57, 20 Dec 2007.
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That thing about PayPal is pretty old. There's probably some small amount of truth to it, but it's also a pissed off ex-employee with an obvious bias who might be outright lying.
SOME amount of truth? Pissed off ex-employee? Outright lying? WTF? What about the thousands of people who got scammed by them (with me being one) and all the class action lawsuits against them? Or you won't belive it until it happens to you?
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Binabik
Responsible
Legendary Hero
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posted December 21, 2007 09:15 PM |
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Russ, I'm just trying to put it in perspective. I don't know how many people have been screwed by PayPal, maybe thousands. But there are millions and millions of transactions through PayPal that don't have any problem.
When someone like this guy makes a blanket statement "don't use PayPal, period", I become a little skeptical. It just sounds like over-reaction to me.
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friendofgunnar
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able to speed up time
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posted December 21, 2007 10:19 PM |
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There's an ocean of PayPal blowback on the internet. I spent 3 hours reading and I only dipped my toes in it.
That post that I quoted above for example (the one from the insider) got like 300 responses.
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