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| Thread: What faction do you hate most? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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darkprince
Adventuring Hero
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posted November 16, 2013 05:48 PM |
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nickelprog said:
Path of war is overpowered skill, of course. But you CAN beat player with it if you find another overpowered skills/combinations.
About relics... Academy town has a artefact market inside, right? So you have some alternative... For fortress it's harder but if you have many runes your army doesn't need any relics. With rune magic your troops are twice stronger than without them ) To be honest, these two fractions have very useful race skills, more useful than many others.
About opponents with the same skills... If your opponent has the same skill it is normal that you can win only with good luck... Or with better heroes' skills. But... You still have chance to get skills like logistics. If you NEED this skill why you can't train two or more heroes at the same time? With more heroes you CAN get logistics for one of them and make him main hero. Of course, if map is big enough, but you said that you have those kind of problem exactly on big maps.
So, like that. Of course, there are some uberstrong races in game, like Strongold (orcs are very strong because they easily can get all best skills in game: logistics, attack, defence, education; and their racial skill is very powerful too). But in other cases Academy and Fortress are strong enough. I know one good guy, one day he told me: "People are afraid to play Academy because they don't know how to. But I know so I play and I like it." So it goes.
Of course you CAN beat player with Path of War if you find another overpowered skills/combinations. But at the same time, your opponent has equal chance of finding other overpowered skills/combinations. In contrast, choosing Path of War vs. Swift Mind is a decision (not really based on chance)--these two skills are mutually exclusive. This is just an example to demonstrate how important being fast on the map is (e.g., with Logistics), even a tiny difference between two subskills can determine your chance of winning on a big rich map.
You missed my point about relics. I said that "my opponent took most relics ...most of these relics were sold to buy more troops." This is not just about artifact market, but about the difference (often huge) in number of troops (as well as ADPK). Such difference in resources is often neglected if you play duel maps.
Training a secondary hero with Logistics is a nice thought, but what's the chance? Assume you start with either Academy and Fortress, two heroes on Day 1 belong to your own faction and potentially one hero from a different faction. The chance of getting a hero from either Haven or Sylvan is only about 25%. Heroes from other factions will reduce your Morale by 2 and you don't really want that to happen during early game creeping.
We are talking about balance here. If two players are equal in skills, they should have 50/50 odds of winning (Luck, as you said). The problem with Logistics is that it shifts the odds ratio greatly. You can choose what skills to take (given some randomness) but you are forced to lose most resources on a map without Logistics (when your opponent has it), which is usually big enough to trump other random factors (racial skills, hero skill combinations, etc.).
I and a few others I know spend quite some time playing Academy and Fortress (more than any other factions because we love Wizards and Rune Mages) and we consider ourselves capable players of these two factions. However, we all believe that we will easily lose to other factions on big maps (without Logistics) if we play against ourselves (on hot seat)--a sad reality. If you have never been a good Academy/Fortress player, you don't really understand how big a difference Logistics can make on big maps.
What makes a capable Academy/Fortress player?
I would consider an Academy player who can break the garrison on Mystic's Vale (H5 official map) before D6 (Hard Mode) or D8 (Heroic Mode) with minimal casualty to be capable (note: Havez banned). You can try it yourself.
Fortress tend to struggle on small maps (they are best on duel maps). A Fortress player who can pass the wolfs before D10-11 on Genesis 2.0 (Hard Mode) should be considered capable.
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SKPRIMUS
Promising
Supreme Hero
The One and the Prime
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posted November 17, 2013 02:15 AM |
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darkprince said:
...What makes a capable Academy/Fortress player?
I would consider an Academy player who can break the garrison on Mystic's Vale (H5 official map) before D6 (Hard Mode) or D8 (Heroic Mode) with minimal casualty to be capable (note: Havez banned). You can try it yourself.
Fortress tend to struggle on small maps (they are best on duel maps). A Fortress player who can pass the wolfs before D10-11 on Genesis 2.0 (Hard Mode) should be considered capable.
Nice words darkprince, maybe you'll continue posting here more on HC
I actually find actual map challenge examples like you wrote above more better guide to what's better or not - not just the theoretical scenario "can move further with logistics -> therefore win".
Haven't read too many complaints about academy being weak in
wk4-5 maps that don;t have the ability to get automatic logs via quest etc.
But then, I don't play competitively & don't know the creeping exploits that allows one to creep with only logs and crappy skills. When everyone gets logs, then not stuffing up level-up skill choices & lucky weak creeps makes more difference?
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Hope defeats despair - "a blatant clue"
too many idiots in VW
"to lose is to win, and he who wins shall lose"
bashing orcus 
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darkprince
Adventuring Hero
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posted November 17, 2013 04:44 AM |
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SKPRIMUS said:
I don't play competitively & don't know the creeping exploits that allows one to creep with only logs and crappy skills.
One crucial difference between playing competitively and noncompetitively is speed. Totally different mindset we are talking about here.
When playing competitively, you will keep thinking: Where is my opponent now? What is his/her level? Has s/he reached the artifacts area yet? What if s/he got Shackle? ... Then you figure, I have to be fast!
To get speed, it usually means that you will have to pay a heavier death toll. Especially "creep with only logs and crappy skills," as you said. When thinking strategically (getting relics that can turn the battle), the casualty is usually worth it.
For example, I wanted to get on the middle island on map Double Confrontation as fast as I can (in silentQ's thread). If that means losing all my Crossbowmen, so be it. Vitto only need a couple of Squires and fodders to creep for all relics in the middle. My lieutenants will bring more troops very soon. If I can get one of the tomes, I will be able to fend off intruders easily.
These MONSTERS were guarding my dock:
I brought 50+ Crossbowmen and sacrificed 20+ to get my boat. If you were me, how many days would you wait before attacking these?
To your comments about crappy skills:
For Haven, Inferno, Stronghold, you can creep 80%+ resources with First Aid alone. With 6 points in War Machines, you can creep almost anything on regular maps.
For Dungeon, Expert Destruction + Enlightenment combo allows you to creep 90%. Lethos is unique, Corrupted Soil helps a lot.
For Necropolis, Expert Summoning + Spirit Link combo allows you to creep 90%. With Fire Warriors, you can creep almost anything on regular maps.
For Academy (banning Havez of course), Expert Summoning/Destruction + MotW combo allows you to creep 90%. Faiz can go Corrupted Soil as well.
For Sylvan, Arcane Archers allows you to creep 80%. With Treants, 90%. You don't need any hero skills. Logistics for the win!
For Fortress, War Machine is usually more efficient than Destruction. Ingvar doesn't need any skills.
In summary, a hero can be formidable as early as lv 2 (Deleb with First Aid) and typically around lv 8. Therefore, take experience instead of gold from chests to make your hero grow faster. For most factions, if Logistics pop up before lv 8, they can wait. However, Academy and Fortress cannot wait, they just have to sacrifice more troops during creeping because of their undeveloped skills--it is definitely worth the casualty as long as the 2% pops up.
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darkprince
Adventuring Hero
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posted November 17, 2013 05:30 PM |
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@SKPRIMUS
Would you consider the trick shown in the following replay some creeping exploits you don't know?
http://www.mediafire.com/download/gzkcfb44rd7h215/imperfect.sav
To me, this is "Competitive H5 101". Those who can't use this skill effectively won't really be able to play Dungeon/Academy/Fortress(Destructive Magic build)/Inferno(without Deleb) competitively.
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Sandman
Known Hero
Fearsome Warrior
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posted December 14, 2013 09:37 PM |
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Gota say i dont really hate any faction but i would say the worst is academy the gremlins are pretty good for lvl 1 but the gargoyles are useless - too weak. The mages have good spells but they are canon fodder and wont last long. Golums are too slow. Djinns deal good damage but again are quite weak and as a spell caster they aint good as you cant pick spells. Rakshasas are a good unit and i like titans too - just wish they had more HP.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted December 15, 2013 12:17 PM |
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Sandman said:
but the gargoyles are useless - too weak.
You are using them in a bad way then. Try armageddon strategies or spam firetraps all over the place with motw as they fly around. Guaranteed results. The gargoyles are the only unit that can save your @ss when everything else is dead.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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SKPRIMUS
Promising
Supreme Hero
The One and the Prime
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posted December 15, 2013 01:27 PM |
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darkprince said:
@SKPRIMUS
Would you consider the trick shown in the following replay some creeping exploits you don't know?
http://www.mediafire.com/download/gzkcfb44rd7h215/imperfect.sav
To me, this is "Competitive H5 101". Those who can't use this skill effectively won't really be able to play Dungeon/Academy/Fortress(Destructive Magic build)/Inferno(without Deleb) competitively.
@darkprince: OOPS, I didn't even realise you posted in this thread a month ago .
Nice one, the words "creeping exploits" & "crappy skills" were references to zaio's crystal non-alt big flyers & xbows vs patriarchs creeping posts.
What you had in replay wasn't creeping exploit I agree, but I think good knowledge of minimum requirements to beat an amount of creeps?
Is it really just "Competitive H5 101"? Would more than 50% MP competitive players would know basic dest ice bolt 60 mana 29 stalkers vs throng of overseers? (Lvl 2 Yrwanna with 3/2/4/4 with 1 morale & 2 luck not from skills & basic destructive icebolt & 113 overseers is nice!) Was number of overseers scouted before battle?
darkprince said:
Those who can't use this skill effectively won't really be able to play Dungeon/Academy/Fortress(Destructive Magic build)/Inferno(without Deleb) competitively.
I would say the skill shown in replay is knowing minimum requirements to beat a certain amount of a neutral creep.? {I'm assuming basic knowledge is a creep stack will attack/go towards closest stack, and looking at init/speed of various creatures to try to get more than 1 move in - that basic part I know, not the trying various permutations with various factions to know the minimum requirements (I'm only Haven player}
Anyway, I also believed
better creeping skills,
knowing minimum requirements to beat a certain amount of a neutral creep,
knowing speed of map clearing vs casualties like you said,
and lucky creeps
are important too. All I really meant before was that some good competitive MP players used to like playing academy & some said fortress was quite strong {oops probably tl;dr}
____________
Hope defeats despair - "a blatant clue"
too many idiots in VW
"to lose is to win, and he who wins shall lose"
bashing orcus
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Sandman
Known Hero
Fearsome Warrior
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posted December 15, 2013 08:52 PM |
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Elvin said:
Sandman said:
but the gargoyles are useless - too weak.
You are using them in a bad way then. Try armageddon strategies or spam firetraps all over the place with motw as they fly around. Guaranteed results. The gargoyles are the only unit that can save your @ss when everything else is dead.
You are right Elvin i haven't really used their good qualities to my advantage, i usually use them to guard my towns or mines. I suppose all of the creatures are good if used correctly. Thanks for your kind suggestion.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted December 15, 2013 09:53 PM |
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The tricky part about academy is that the units are not always better off attacking Sometimes you want them to protect your shooters, others to block path of enemies, others to hide behind obstacles. Since academy gameplay is mostly creative than standard, I'd say plan ahead what you want your hero to do and then have his units assist in that plan. Things always change depending on what kind of spells you have.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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darkprince
Adventuring Hero
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posted December 16, 2013 05:59 PM |
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SKPRIMUS said:
I'm assuming basic knowledge is a creep stack will attack/go towards closest stack, and looking at init/speed of various creatures to try to get more than 1 move in
This part is closest to the basic I was talking about.
Given the init/speed discrepancy between your troops and the opponents, it is often possible to creep an infinite number of monsters with normal hero attack (without using destructive magic and mana at all).
Is this an exploit? It depends on how you define the word "exploit." I would consider this as an exploit of AI. However, this exploit does not affect the balance much. Therefore, I think it is more useful to agree on the degree of exploits both players can tolerate before the game starts than to just say "ban game exploits." For me, banning specific things like goblin knights and arcane crystals on most maps are probably sufficient (everything not being mentioned will be allowed)--you don't even need to ban goblin knights for maps that heroes have max lvs around 10.
I picked a random battle during my play to illustrate my point above. The mana, status, magic, number of overseers don't really matter much. For your question "was number of overseers scouted before battle?" No, I didn't. But I know that the stack was supposed to be lots lv 3--and by turning themselves into lv 2s, the number is increased to 100+.
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Markus404
Tavern Dweller
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posted January 18, 2014 07:44 PM |
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1/ Fortress, totally unbalanced (creatures, skills, buildings...).
2/ Sylvan, I never liked the elves, they are too arrogant.
3/ Academy, they are ugly... and too pretentious. ^^
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TheSound
Tavern Dweller
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posted January 20, 2014 01:22 AM |
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I think the same as someone here, the Elves are a bit overpowered, especially the 6th creature in almost aspects
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Bigpawz83
Hired Hero
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posted February 01, 2014 11:35 AM |
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without a doubt, I HATE the Sylvan faction. I lost to my cousin during a hotseat game because of the ungodly amount of Tree guys (H5 TotE) I had 2 hero armies double his size...well Inferno double his size and one undead army about even, it was day 7 when I got to his castle, and we had a time limit so I couldn't attack with my 2nd army after the initial fight because he took to long to make his moves on purpose so I couldn't finish his castle off witht he 2nd army.
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Doomhammer
Known Hero
Smasher of pasties
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posted September 25, 2014 01:11 PM |
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I don't hate anything from this game really but the faction i find most annoying is dungeon. Don't like the dark elves idea and I'm not really fused on the s&m style blood maidens 
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TD
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted September 25, 2014 04:13 PM |
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Edited by TD at 16:16, 25 Sep 2014.
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Teams from worst(1.) to best(8.):
1. Fortress. The units were basically copied straight from existing ones with new skins and more def/hp based stats. The line-up felt so boring, only nice unit was Thane that felt original and runes weren't that interesting(though runes would've had great potential).
2. Dungeon. I just always disliked the faction, it felt so abnormal to me in bad way. Great skills and ultimate skill though.
3. Haven. Boring line-up with no imagination whatsoever.
4. Inferno. Too reliant on gating especially.
5. Necro. After the necromancy got fixed so you didn't have legions of archers it was nice team. Pretty much the average team for me. Hated fighting against them though(AI).
6. Sylvan. Very diverse units and it could be played in so many different ways. Low magic for heroes was a downer.
7. Orcs. Totally different from all other factions in a good way. Not my THE favourite team, but always my wild-card when choosing faction. Lots of fun to play if you master using the blood-rage well.
8. Academy. I liked the ranged units and overall great synergy between units. Town had item-shop and the ultimate skill was among the best ones in the game.
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taavidude
Tavern Dweller
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posted September 26, 2014 04:21 PM |
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Stronghold, because indesctructible centaurs.
Inferno, because of gating.
Haven: Those f##king griffins never die!
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Saurya
Tavern Dweller
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posted March 11, 2015 08:26 AM |
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Reading Dark Prince's posts, it seems I may be better than I imagined...
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dredknight
Honorable
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
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posted April 12, 2015 01:11 PM |
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speaking for original 3.1 Tote.
Number 1 faction on my hatelist is definately sylvan.
So noob it can turn NWC out of the grave!
Archers, trees and dragons - super strong. THan you see the other units which are like near the super strong level - War dancer and their combo is just not real...
Second hated is Heaven - they are super strong again... crusaders, archers, griffins, champions - just name it. And with that Dark + light magic you can just call off the game...
I really like necropolis, dungeon, inferno, fortress, Academy - though the synergy of some of their skills and/or units is not so good.
Inferno you must get deleb just to survive... and be competitive in PvP.
with fortress you struggle hard and sacrifice till you get the thanes and some runes, if you manage to get that far.
Necropolis are not that bad if due to the Dark magic magic for PvP and summoning for PvE. But still the units are not that strong (besides the wraith but on the other hand he is slow...).
Dungeon - good idea but somehow you must hit the enemy till month 2 at most, otherwise destruction is not viable.
Academy - love em! quite balanced comparing to the other races. a little bit expensive but it all worths it! Late game they can really pawn almost everything with those artifacts.
thanks god there are some mods that fix those issues ;].
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Saurya
Tavern Dweller
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posted May 02, 2015 08:38 AM |
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Sylvan...Imbalanced...Overpowered... I see. Have you ever noticed the attack rating of the heroes? I believe, Balancing Sylvan was a piece of magic in the real world. Counting the war dancers, master hunters, unicorns, avenger, etc... Sylvan is the OPest faction... if they have enough attack to use them! Sylvan has numerous factors increasing the creature's attack, but the attack itself is seriously low!
Overpowered things I notice are gating Firehounds and Mass Confusion. They both can be dealt with relatively easily though...
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PandaTar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Celestial Heavens Mascot
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posted May 02, 2015 04:22 PM |
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Vote for Dungeon. My experience with this Ashan Dungeon is only H5. It was the faction I least wanted to play with, for a number of reasons, but mainly because I didn't like the overall result. Also, the dark elf concept displeased me so much that I often overlooked I had Dungeon as option to play.
As I'm not a multiplayer player, can't say if it would change if I played against other humans.
I also didn't play much with Necropolis.
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"Okay. Look. We both said a lot of things that you're going to regret. But I think we can put our differences behind us. For science. You monster."
GlaDOS – Portal 2
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