|
| Thread: Serbia chooses a new president, and a new way... |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV / NEXT» |
|
Vlaad
Admirable
Legendary Hero
ghost of the past
|
posted January 13, 2008 12:32 AM |
|
Edited by Vlaad at 07:51, 13 Jan 2008.
|
@ baklava:
Quote:
My people has a history of pushing itself into deeper and deeper sh*t every minute for some ideals, honor, bravery and whatever. Alas, that leaves no room to common sense  So anything can happen.
To quote Alice in Wonderland, "we're all mad here".
I am not. 
As for your national romanticism... Serbs were also turncoats (Second Battle of Kosovo, 1448), enslaved (1494-1882), attackers (Serbo-Bulgarian War, 1885), conquerors (Second Balkan War, 1913), neutral (communist era, 1945-1990) and war criminals (Civil War in Bosnia, 1992-1995) - just like most nations were at some point in history. I'm moralizing again, *sigh* but such oversimplification borders on populism. You, for one, should be able to see beyond that. The point is "we" are neither this or that; each individual is responsible for his/her deeds and each generation has made their own choices, which brings us back on topic:Quote:
Choosing between joining the EU but letting Kosovo go, or delaying our entry into EU for some 20 or more years but making Kosovo independence as hard as possible, is for a large number of Serbs no choice at all, I'm afraid. :\
But I can't do anything about it.
In two years you'll be able to vote - hopefully that's all it takes.
____________
|
|
Vlaad
Admirable
Legendary Hero
ghost of the past
|
|
posted January 13, 2008 12:55 AM |
|
Edited by Vlaad at 01:03, 13 Jan 2008.
|
@ Vidoja
Quote:
Ah, you are Romanian. You don't like these pictures because you banned such a picture in some museum on some exibition, did you?
You are generalizing again. I doubt he is responsible for the ban or whatever it was, and I don't think Romanians "don't like these pictures".
Quote:
But the EU and UN did nothing. But when Milosevic said to the Serbs in Kosovo: 'Who hit you, nobody can hit you!' (I'm not a supporter of Milosevic) the same EU and UN started to bombard the people of Serbia. Hello!
You have skipped 10 years in between and the reasons of the conflict. If interested, see my post in the Kosovo thread.Quote:
Boris Tadic is by all means not corrupt, and Tomislav Nikolic seams also that way. But, the question is: Will Nikolic be more effective than Tadic? You can't say.
Oh, Nikolic WILL be more "effective", believe me.
For those who are not familiar with the topic, Mr. Nikolic is the deputy leader of Serbian Radical Party. He is well-known for saying that Tadic, his opponent in the upcoming elections, is Ustasha (Croat WW2 war criminals - today the expression is an insult). Earlier, he noticed that Tito, the communist leader of former Yugoslavia, "also had problems with his leg right before his death - just like Djindjic". A few days later, PM Djindjic was assassinated. A few years before that, Nikolic stated he didn't feel sorry for Curuvija, an independent journalist shot dead by Milosevic's secret police.
Nikolic's boss, Mr. Seselj, is currently awating trial for war crimes in the International Crime Tribunal. Seselj was well-known for his harsh rhetoric, e.g. "Croats should be killed with rusty spoons", "We're just chauvinists who hate Croats", and also organizing paramilitary troops, pointing his gun at his opponents, threatening to independent media, and swearing in the Parliament. Nikolic has been his right hand for 15 years. And you are wondering whether this man would be an "effective" president?
Finally, it seems you have missed this thread.
____________
|
|
Shai-Hulud
Known Hero
Sicomor
|
|
posted January 13, 2008 06:52 AM |
|
|
Ah.. Vlaad. I've always loved your style of understanding and patience you have in your posts. Back from the days when you asked people how to propose for marriage .
"We" salute you (for those about to rock).
____________
~~~Azzy~~~
|
|
Vidoja
Bad-mannered
Known Hero
Checker for Heroes Competiton
|
|
posted January 13, 2008 12:06 PM |
|
|
@Vlaad: You've gone to the dark side, that is for sure, no matter how many times are you going to quote this, I have so many things to reply to your posts, but I haven't the heart. You can't spill blood from a stone. Sheshelj is going to show them in Hag, they occuse him of something they don't even know, whatch it. This thread is about the PRESIDENT OF SERBIA please don't go off subject. And, yes Romanians have proven their dislike of facts.
____________
|
|
antipaladin
Promising
Legendary Hero
of Ooohs and Aaahs
|
|
posted January 13, 2008 01:02 PM |
|
|
note my question reedemed unanswered,why is joining the EU is so bad?
You notice generlising,He is not fault that romania banned this,maybe they want out of the conflict? it seems to me viojdolia,your patriotism,is somewhat too fierce,all in good nature but try to not to escalate,i have a feeling this will go out of hand.
____________
types in obscure english
|
|
baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
|
|
posted January 13, 2008 01:31 PM |
|
Edited by baklava at 13:38, 13 Jan 2008.
|
Quote:
I am not.
Well, you're not here You're in Wyoming.
I am talking of those of us who did remain here.
Either by choice or cause they had nowhere else to go.
Quote:
As for your national romanticism... Serbs were also turncoats (Second Battle of Kosovo, 1448), enslaved (1494-1882), attackers (Serbo-Bulgarian War, 1885), conquerors (Second Balkan War, 1913), neutral (communist era, 1945-1990) and war criminals (Civil War in Bosnia, 1992-1995) - just like most nations were at some point in history. I'm moralizing again, *sigh* but such oversimplification borders on populism. You, for one, should be able to see beyond that. The point is "we" are neither this or that; each individual is responsible for his/her deeds and each generation has made their own choices
Sorry. Have to make a few counter arguments here...
At the second battle of Kosovo, only Djuradj Brankovic with his men participated on Turkish side, because he was their vassal. Many Serbs who resisted Ottoman rule fought at the Christian side in that battle.
I don't see how we had any choice when we were enslaved? Besides, I don't have to remind you of how many Serbs rebelled, joining Hajduk or Uskok squads, and later making two revolutions against Ottomans.
Attackers and conquerors. Yes. Was that such a shameful thing back then? When everyone warred with everyone? Territorial wars were led by all sides then. Bulgarians attacked us in both world wars. I never said this region was peaceful.
Neutral. Of course we were bloody neutral. Why would we interfere in the cold war between Stalin and USA? For chrissakes... Not like we'd make a difference anyway.
And the war crimes in Bosnia... Do Milosevic's paramilitary formations count as the majority of Serbs? Besides, it was an open war there. War crimes were committed. But what about all the protests against Milosevic and his administration during the following decade? I am pretty sure that the majority of the Serbian people didn't support him or his policies.
Alright, maybe I got a bit carried away, but my point remains that we are an overwhelmingly stubborn people.
Quote:
In two years you'll be able to vote - hopefully that's all it takes.
Hopefully
Quote:
note my question reedemed unanswered,why is joining the EU is so bad?
It isn't. It's just that some Serbs view it that way. Mostly because USA strongly influences the politics of the EU, and most of my countrymen aren't quite fond of USA.
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
|
|
antipaladin
Promising
Legendary Hero
of Ooohs and Aaahs
|
|
posted January 13, 2008 02:06 PM |
|
|
and for what reasons is that?
____________
types in obscure english
|
|
baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
|
|
posted January 13, 2008 02:44 PM |
|
|
Several reasons, one of the main is the bombing of 1999, which they called "operation Angel of Mercy".
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
|
|
antipaladin
Promising
Legendary Hero
of Ooohs and Aaahs
|
|
posted January 13, 2008 03:18 PM |
|
|
and why arethe russians better?
____________
types in obscure english
|
|
baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
|
|
posted January 13, 2008 03:29 PM |
|
|
Cause they showed open support for our cause and they have a history of friendship with Serbia.
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
|
|
Shai-Hulud
Known Hero
Sicomor
|
|
posted January 13, 2008 05:22 PM |
|
|
Quote:
@Vlaad: You've gone to the dark side.
[Darth Vader-like voice by Vlaad]: Vidoja... I am your father!
P.S. Sorry, I just really had to say this!
____________
~~~Azzy~~~
|
|
Vlaad
Admirable
Legendary Hero
ghost of the past
|
|
posted January 13, 2008 07:46 PM |
|
Edited by Vlaad at 20:23, 13 Jan 2008.
|
@ baklavaQuote:
Quote:
I am not.
Well, you're not here You're in Wyoming.
I am talking of those of us who did remain here.
Either by choice or cause they had nowhere else to go.
Good point! There's more than meets the eye here (Serbian emigration in the wake of recent conflicts etc), but - although closely related - it is a separate topic. Let's just say I've been here for five months only. In addition, my reasons are personal, not financial or ideological. Quote:
Sorry. Have to make a few counter arguments here...
All your arguments are valid, so I won't go nit-picking (n.b. not Milosevic, I meant Karadzic and Mladic). My point was to avoid generalization and national romanticism. Both are breeding grounds for populism. I hope we agreed historical occurrences are relative, dependant on given set of values.
Values change as well. For example, Serbs who abandoned their faith and accepted Christianity are viewed differently from those who later accepted Islam. Stefan Nemanja was baptized in a Catholic church, while his son, king Stefan, was first crowned and recognized by the Pope. Finally, religion in Serbia was marginalized altogether for half a century. Can you imagine any of it in present-day Serbia? 
Why am I throwing random facts at you? Because this topic is not about simply circling the number in front of the name of your candidate, but about choosing a set of values. You have made a clear distinction in your previous posts.
No matter how attractive nationalistic rhetoric might be, please keep in mind who is using it. The right-wing demagogy is a far cry from reality - "a loaf of bread for 5 cents" spells "government control".
Speaking of which...
@ Vidoja:
Quote:
@Vlaad: You've gone to the dark side, that's for sure. no matter how many times are you going to quote this, I have so many things to reply to your posts, but I haven't the heart. You can't spill blood from a stone.
Am I drug addict, too? But I am not the topic here.Quote:
Sheshelj is going to show them in Hag, they occuse him of something they don't even know, whatch it.
I can't wait for the trial to finally begin. Frankly, I haven't heard much from him so far, aside from comments like this one (copied from the official transcript of the International Tribunal):
Quote:
Vojislav ŠEŠELJ: Why didn't you read it all out? You read more beautifully than I do. At the end I said: "... all you members of the Registry office of The Hague Tribunal can only suck my ****." But that is not my article. It is my submission to the secretariat of The Hague Tribunal, which for a full two and a half years is preventing my Defence and refusing to register my legal advisors and in other ways violating elemental rules and regulations with regard to my status and rights.
Prosecutor NICE: Read the last short paragraph on this page.
Vojislav ŠEŠELJ: No, I can't do only the last one. I have to do the penultimate one and the last paragraph together because you can understand the last one only if I read the one but last paragraph as well. "My legal advisors are not my Defence counsel and that is why they need not fulfil the conditions stipulated by the Rules of Procedure and Evidence for Defence counsel. All they have to do is to fulfil those conditions which I prescribe for them. And you can go on hampering my Defence and then ultimately you're going to have to eat all the **** that you excreted. "**** you all, beginning with Hans Holthuis, and so on, including that Tjarda van der Spoel, who is a crook."
It speaks volumes though.
____________
|
|
Vidoja
Bad-mannered
Known Hero
Checker for Heroes Competiton
|
|
posted January 13, 2008 08:48 PM |
|
|
@Vlaad: I don't like Sheshelj but his argument is very very acceptable because he is waiting trial for 5 years + he gave himself up. But, really, if he gets occused of something it is going to be the end of the world.
ONLY SERBA'S PRESIDENT-RELATED REPLYS HERE PLESE
____________
|
|
mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted January 13, 2008 11:31 PM |
|
|
Is it just me, or is this a lot like this year's Russian Presidential election?
Nikolić=Zhirinovsky
Dobričanin=Some minor unimportant guy
Tadić=Medvedev
Ilić=Limonov
Pastor=Some minor minority leader
Rističević=Some peasant leader
Jovanović=Yavlinsky
Mrkonjić=Zyuganov
and so on.
____________
Eccentric Opinion
|
|
antipaladin
Promising
Legendary Hero
of Ooohs and Aaahs
|
|
posted January 14, 2008 12:19 AM |
|
|
Quote:
Nikolić=Zhirinovsky
where is the truth in this? i do not think its right.
____________
types in obscure english
|
|
baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
|
|
posted January 14, 2008 02:06 AM |
|
|
Quote:
No matter how attractive nationalistic rhetoric might be, please keep in mind who is using it. The right-wing demagogy is a far cry from reality - "a loaf of bread for 5 cents" spells "government control".
Entirely true. I couldn't agree more on this one.
That's why I'd never vote for the Radicals.
But if patriotism can be misused, it doesn't mean it's bad by itself. Same as with religion. Patriotism actually comes as a second religion for a lot of people. It does give hope and a sense of unity, and can be rather beneficial, in right doses. The problem is fanaticism - again, as with religion. But fanatics will always exist; it's just crucial to stop them from getting in charge of things.
I like my people, and I don't see anything wrong with stating that openly. I neither support right-wing politics, nor the Radicals, nor war criminals, nor anything like that. I dislike overly nationalist people and despise national hatred. What I hate the most are political scumbags with their demagogy and pathetic speeches. Heck, I'm an anarchist, I'm not too fond of the national idea itself.
I just like my people.
Marilyn Manson once said, "I'm both left and right wing, that's what allows me to fly"
About Vojislav Seselj... He's a... special case. He's a scumbag, but on the other hand, they accuse him of something that they have no proof about. It is fun to watch him "address" the court and his trial, though But there's simply too much real injustice in the world for me to pity someone like him being held for a few years without evidence.
The only problem with him is that he's still a potentially powerful figure among many nationalists. Whatever happens to him will certainly be used by the Radicals to the best of their ability.
So it's probably best the way it is.
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
|
|
Vlaad
Admirable
Legendary Hero
ghost of the past
|
|
posted January 14, 2008 02:08 AM |
|
|
Actually, that's a good comparison, mvass. Mr. Ilic is as troublesome as Limonov, but has the support of the current government. Go figure.Quote:
Quote:
Nikolic=Zhirinovsky
where is the truth in this? i do not think its right.
Both are nationalists and populists. Nikolic is an advocate of Greater Serbia, while Zhirinovsky wishes Russian soldiers could wash their boots in the warm waters of the Indian Ocean. The former has promised bread for 5 cents, while the latter promised free vodka had he won. In brief, both cater to the poor and uneducated - but the problem is Nikolic has a significant number of supporters.
Zhirinovsky is even more similar to Nikolic's boss, aforementioned Seselj (leader of Serbian Radical Party, currently awating trial for war crimes). See one of my posts above.
____________
|
|
mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted January 14, 2008 02:36 AM |
|
|
Quote:
Nikolic is an advocate of Greater Serbia, while Zhirinovsky wishes Russian soldiers could wash their boots in the warm waters of the Indian Ocean.
He also wants a Greater Russia, consisting of all of the USSR's republics and Poland.
____________
Eccentric Opinion
|
|
Vidoja
Bad-mannered
Known Hero
Checker for Heroes Competiton
|
|
posted January 14, 2008 02:41 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Both are nationalists and populists. Nikolic is an advocate of 1Greater Serbia, while Zhirinovsky wishes Russian soldiers could wash their boots in the warm waters of the Indian Ocean. The former has promised 2bread for 5 cents, while the latter promised free vodka had he won. In brief, both cater to the poor and 3uneducated - but the problem is Nikolic has a significant number of supporters.
Zhirinovsky is even more similar to Nikolic's boss, aforementioned Seselj (leader of Serbian Radical Party, currently awating trial for war crimes). See one of my posts above.
I, personally, don't admire the radicals, but...
1. Nikolic is not for the idea of Greater Serbia, he doesn't want any nation to suffer just as we did (if by Greater Serbia you mean current Serbia, than everybody is for it). Nobody comments the 'Big Albania'
2. This is possible, but Serbs aren't optimists. If we increased our industry this would be totally possible (Aleksandar Vucic said that, not Tomislav Nikolic)
3. Nikolic wrote 13 books. They aren't stupid, they are quite neutral and truthful.
But, does it take education to be a good man?
____________
|
|
antipaladin
Promising
Legendary Hero
of Ooohs and Aaahs
|
|
posted January 14, 2008 03:30 PM |
|
|
the fact that he wrote books that you think are truthfull,not making them TRUTHFULL.
Infact i think that he is more like any other redical,like zherinoskfy or our Avigador Liberman. reminds me abit of hilter,as well of musalini.
____________
types in obscure english
|
| |
|
|
