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| Thread: Heroes VI - Battlefield Issues |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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TDL
Honorable
Supreme Hero
The weak suffer. I endure.
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posted January 24, 2008 05:31 PM |
bonus applied. |
Edited by TDL at 17:46, 28 Jan 2008.
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Heroes VI - Battlefield Issues
Days when we were eagerly awaiting for a sign of a sequel to Heroes of Might and Magic IV are long since over. Nival and UbiSoft managed to provided us with a product somewhat different from our expectations, yet, despite the fact that we were given an enjoyable game, we were always swift to find even the smallest flaws. Some found the gameplay lacking, others were disappointed by the graphics' system, but before we were handed the product, we would discuss every single detail revealed by the creators and one of the most controversial issues at first was the battlefield.
The Battleground:
The battleground (the "surface" on which the combat takes place in a battlefield; combat field) is the most discussed part of the battlefield. Despite many guesses, many different opinions and many wishes, the battleground would be shaped differently in each installment.
The battleground as of yet had three variations. The first three installments in the series had a 2D hex-based battlefield, comprised solely of hexagons. Creatures would use up 1x1 or 1x2 hexes, depending on their size, random obstacles would be placed accordingly to the terrain on which the battle took place. The fourth installment converted the existing 2D battlefield into a somewhat new tile-based battlefield, viewed from a slight angle. While there was no definitive amount of tiles for a creature to take, it was rather easy to discern the size of a unit by a) looking at the ability screen, b) pointing at a unit to see its shadow or c) attacking it from range with an area attack. Some features, however, unique to the game, were introduced as the battlefield changed (Line of Sight, under-siege castle buildings (referred to as moats), etc.), yet to no avail, as the fans declined the random, hard-to-maneuver and slightly "tactic-less" creature movement. The fifth installment simplified the battlefield, redirecting its gaze more or less towards the original system. While the new battlefield was fully 3D and comprised of squares, the battleground became extremely similar to what most fans were used to. The combat system became more or less the same as in the old heroes while the difference between differently-sized creatures gradually became even more noticeable: while small creatures would take up 1x1 squares, a large creature would take 4 times as much, occupying a 2x2 square area.
Tactically, how battlegrounds progressed over time proved to be well-decided by the game creators and I grew to like every last one of them. Somehow, it still was not enough for me if it any of them were to be reimplemented in future installments, as I found some of their aspects lacking. Thus, if, say, the square-based battleground was to be included again, I would vote for a slightly extented size of the battlefield. The current size (if I remember correctly) of the battleground allows to fit in from 5 to 7 large creatures, depending on type of combat (siege or normal). While this size tactically limits the player's actions in all of its aspects (placing less large durable creatures, etc.) and restricts from getting imbalanced, I find it a bit too strict and I would like to find a bit different (if possible, all new and innovative) system included.
There are two possibilities brewing in my mind at the moment: a) an altered Heroes V square background and b) an all-new tile/square backround, heavily based on the terrain. I will post the latter system which is basically the core of my proposal. It will be sort of difficult to provide you with a pictorial view of the battle grounds, thus I will try to reproduce the exact visions by describing them in as much detail as possible.
The so-called alternative system is basically all of my proposals merged into one system. The ideas I have been currently thinking over can represent themselves being standalone well under any circumstances. Whatever system may be included in the sixth installment, I could imagine them in-game, although heavy balancing and alteration would be inevitable. However, as aforementioned in the Battleground section, I had pictured another idea and I am going to work on both features at the same time.
Variable Battlefield Size:
While there was no significance what concerned variable battlefield size prior to Heroes of Might and Magic V as it would not change as much under any circumstances, the battlefield in the fifth installment would vary in size depending on whether it is a simple combat or a siege combat. The changing battlefield size allowed to choose tactics that would suit the situation better: in a simple combat, you would be allowed to choose 5 large creatures or more small creatures, depending on your army, while in a larger battlefield, you would be allowed to place 7 large creatures.
For now, I will focus on the idea to alter the size. How I perceive this idea is EXTREMELY simple, however, in my opinion, it would bring a tactical distinction. First off, the size of the battleground should be grossly increased as a single tile (smaller square) should cover at most about 0.6 of the current square. Thus, if we were to apply the same battlefield size limits (10x12 squares), this would extend the battlefield size to approximately 16x20. However, the width:height ratio would make the battleground too wide. Hence, I believe the exact tile limit (length and width) should be increased respectively by 1.4 and 1.6 each to 14x22. Siege battles would respectively change and increase in area by 1.4 total. BUT! What I would primarily want to see is the battlefield size to depend on the terrain and the landscape.
Depending on the terrain the battle is taken (except for sea battles), the unoccupied space of the battlefield can be affected by different obstacles. However, most obstacles come from landscape objects on the adventure map (remember that most of the time landscape goes with the terrain) and that is the main idea. The effect of obstacles should be engrossed based on terrain type. Let's say, a battle is taking place on simple grassy plains. Normally, you would expect to see no or a single obstacle (ie: tree stumps, puddles of water). This type of battlefield, however, would not be so simple as adventure map objects would affect it. Say, if there are trees, vegetation nearby, it is possible that there would be tree stumps exactly at the same side you enter the combat. Adventure map locations, treasures, any other material but background of the land would not affect the field (except for maybe the farther background).
The situation described above would induce a 4-10 tile area reduction. But if we look at a more sophisticated situation, say, a combat is taking place on rough terrain somewhere between mountains, the battlefield would be even more affected. First off, the mountains alongside would narrow the battlefield by a few tiles in width, not to mention add a few more obstacles like fallen rock pieces. Secondly, the intercepting mountain range would possibly block some of the units' path. Thirdly, and finally, to some extent it may be possible that landscape might save as well-placed unit from the effects of Line of Sight (discussed later on). Tactically, this type of effect on the battlefield would make one double-think about the outcome of the battle before venturing into combat. Say, the starting side of your units only has enough space for 3-4 large creatures, while your army is fully comprised of them, or you have shooters and there are too many landscape objects lying around that make you unable to execute the attacks.
The effect of the amount of stacks on the size should stay minimal as it did in all installments of the game. While generally the battlefield should not depend on it, I would like to opt out the annoying 'hit and run' technique that most of time imbalances the game to some extent. Say you are facing an army of units who are 1.6 slower than your creatures. Even if you had a single stack of 1 creature in it with current mobility possibilities, you can eliminate an army which vastly outnumbers yours (say, sprites vs golems in both Heroes IV and Heroes V). Hence, this requires introduction of the effect of the size of the units. While by itself it should not affect the battlefield, depending on the amount of stacks you have and you are facing could also have its effect. This feature, however, is unlikely and I do not think it would really fit the heroic combat.
Line of Sight:
While the Line of Sight feature was first introduced in the fourth installment of the series, it has never reappeared since. Despite its somewhat peculiar introduction in Heroes IV, it was one of the most realistic and innovative combat features. To those who are not acquainted, I shall provide you with a short explanation on what it did.
The primary goal of LoS was to implement some sort of limits to your creatures' sight (also known as, making the game more realistic  ). Whenever you decide to cast a direct damage spell or shoot, the target has to stand directly in front of the attacking creature/hero with no obstacles underway. Should another hostile stack or some sort of a landscape object stand in front of the target, the creature would not be able to attack the selected foe. LoS itself, however, had some twists and most of the time shooters, instead of being unable to attack at all, would receive a greater range penalty and those affected the most by the LoS were spellcasters.
Therefore, considering the existing Line of Sight system, I would consider this feature a nice addition to the game and it is really unfortunate it did not make it to Heroes of Might and Magic V. However, were the game creators to include such a feature in future installments of the series, I would suggest a bit different version, primarily based on my battlefield system with the possibility to adjust it to basically anything.
Basically, the primary effect of Line of Sight would stay the same: limitations on attacks from range and spellcasting. However, I would like it to influence creature attacks even more while not affecting the hero (conversely to Heroes IV). The only catch to Line of Sight is the strict application of the feature. Should a target be not directly covered by another stack, Line of Sight effect would not be applied. Below you will find a list of factors that I think should be affected by Line of Sight:
Hostile Target: Depending on the area of coverage, a hostile target underway can partly or fully cover another hostile creature standing behind from ranged and spell attacks requiring Line of Sight. If the hostile target is less than 50% total distance apart from the covered creature, it covers it completely. If 50% or more, then the attacking creature receives a 50% penalty (no penalty becomes 1/2 penalty, 1/2 becomes 1/4 penalty, etc.). If the subject hostile target underway is a Large Creature and the creature protected is a small creature, LoS-based ranged attacks and spell casts against creature(s) behind it are completely restricted. If a large creature, normal consitions apply. If a hostile target is standing underway, it completely restricts the attacking creature from casting spells requiring Line of Sight.
Siege Battles: Castle Walls restrict attacking from range if the units are placed within the first 2 tiles from the walls. Casting of spells that require Line of Sight is impossible regardless of targets' placement. If castle walls are knocked down, depending on the type of the moat of the sieged town, it may affect the rangers' attacks that require Line of Sight. Spells can be cast without any penalty (except if there are other obstacles).
Landscape objects (obstacles) have their own effect that will be described later on. For future reference, many of them will involve Line of Sight.
To sum it up shortly, if there is a failure for the LoS-based attack to take place, the attacking unit simply CANNOT attack the unit behind. The only possibility is to attack the creature in front. Damage should not be redistributed. Thus, a small creature should be able to defend another small creature from Line of Sight based ranged attacks, while a large creature should be able to defend a large one and would always defend a smaller one (or two stacks, depending on creatures' placement). However, when it comes to large and small shooters attacking large creatures it becomes a bit different. Large creatures should be able to defend those of the same size, but small creatures should basicly be unable to defend a large creature UNLESS there are special abilities which allow you to do so.
Terrain and Landscape Effects:
While I have discussed the effect of terrain and landscape on the size of the battlefield and the correspondence of weather effects with the terrain will be discussed below, time has come to discuss how landscape should interfere in battle. Remembering the old topic by The_Hydra discussing Heroes V: Interactive Landscape, it might be even better to incorporate what Hydra proposed us into the game. However, landscape features discussed there requires innovations. I had liberally taken the idea to create something similar, but apparently I was wrong about what the interactive landscape actually meant. Nevertheless, what I had pictured back then did not change much except for the fact that while terrains should have their own effects, more or less its effect should be aligned with landscape.
The terrain effects, however, do not affect the battlefield. The only effect is the +1 bonus to attack, defence and movement for creatures who are native to the terrain. Otherwise, no other effect. BUT! Following my ideas, the vast amount of landscape objects aligned to terrains divides each terrain alignment into several sub-specials, each with their own obstacles and adventure map effects. These sub-specials each would represent a terrain by themselves and would have associated landscape objects placed accordingly as obstacles on the battlefield, each with additional effects:
Grass:
Plains, Mountains and Forest.
Dirt:
Plains and Forest.
Snow:
Plains, Mountains and Forest.
Swamp:
Lush and Shallow.
Lava:
Volcanic Rock and Rifts.
Sand:
Desert and Beach.
Rock:
Highlands and Mountains.
Subterranean:
Subterrane, Volcanic and Grottoes
These terrain sub-specials portray how the terrain affects your army and what obstacles can appear on the battlefield to make your day. There are of course more terrains to be had but I will not list them all at the moment. Below I will list all the obstacles and their effects:
Plains:
Plains are the principal sub-special of three different terrains: Grass, Dirt and Snow. Differently from most other landscape sub-specials, the chance of obstacles appearing on the plains is the smallest. While plains will be met most commonly in combat (as it also involves combats on roads and uncovered areas, not crowded with other landscape objects), they also have the smallest movement penalty.
Adventure Map Effect: Lesser movement penalty (Grass - 0% (normal movement); Dirt - 10%; Snow - 15%)
Frequency of Obstacle Appearance: Rare (20% chance).
Neutral Obstacles: Bushes, plants, flowers, tree stumps, ground rifts, rock pieces, ponds (iced).
Special Obstacles: - none -
Forest:
Forests are native to the same three terrains: Grass, Dirt and Snow. As one of the primary landscape sub-specials surrounding the battlefield, it provides the battlefield with additional obstacles and also interferes in the battle from the side. While forests do not add any additional effects, it provides with obstacles that have standalone effects of their own.
Adventure Map Effect: Medium movement penalty (Grass - 10%; Dirt - 15%; Snow - 25%)
Frequency of Obstacle Appearance: Common (30% chance).
Neutral Obstacles: Tree stumps, knocked down trees, bushes, water/dirt puddles (iced).
Special Obstacles: Trees, large bushes, potholes (trenches), hills (knolls).
Trees: Appear on the battlefield as a tall tree that occupy from 1x1 to 3x3 on the battlefield. Shooters and casters facing the trees suffer from Line of Sight penalties, as their attacks are rendered completely ineffective against targets standing directly at the other side. Creatures standing directly behind (adjacent to) a tree suffer 25% less damage from ranged attacks coming from the sides, depending on the size of the unit. Large creatures not affected if the tree is small.
Large Bushes: Large bushes also serve as obstacles for Line of Sight users. Occupying a larger space, they tend to weaken ranged attacks. If a unit is standing directly behind the bush, it is completely covered from LoS-dependent attacks and suffers 50% less damage from regular ranged attacks.
Potholes (Trenches): Occupying a pothole requires a unit to spend a turn to get into it. A unit in the pothole suffers 50% less damage from physical ranged and melee attacks, yet it is not protected from LoS attacks. Only available to small units.
Hills (Knolls): Hills appear as a territory slightly a bit above the medium level of surface. While a unit is positioned on it, it is exposed to Line of Sight attacks, but suffers no Line of Sight penalties and has increased full damage shooting range. Only available to small units.
Mountains:
Mountains belong to three terrain types: Grass, Snow and Rock, with the exclusion of Dirt terrain which has hills and not mountains (thus, not forming any special obstacles). Mountain ranges are one of the distinctive few features that can alter the size of the battlefield, as well as provide the battlefield with additional obstacles and heavily affect mobility and passability on the adventure map.
Adventure Map Effect: Greater movement penalty (Grass - 15%; Snow - 33%; Rock - 50%)
Frequency of Obstacle Appearance: Extremely Common (50% chance).
Neutral Obstacles: Rocks (iced), ground rifts, montane vegetation, iced ground.
Special Obstacles: Mountains, rock (snow) blockades, massive rock, mountain crags.
Mountains: Mountains interfere in the battle from the sides. As aforementioned, they may restrict creatures standing directly behind a mountain from executing LoS-dependent attacks and completely prevent them from casting and using Line of Sight dependent spells.
Rock (Snow) Blockades: Basically similar to mountains, blockades appear next to mountains as a wall of fallen rocks (or snow). Blockades usually take up to 3-4 tiles in length and up to 2 tiles in width, thus restricting both small and large units from using ranged LoS attacks and spells and passing by. Placing a unit directly behind a blockade, can defend from both diagonal and straight attacks (only applicable to small units; large units can only be protected from straight attacks).
Massive Rock: Massive rock pieces are flat rock pieces tossed in somewhere around the middle of the battlefield. While having no apparent effect, the rocks can be used as a landing spot for flying units. While the unit is exposed to all LoS-dependent attacks, it has an increased chance to evade melee attacks. Small units can hide directly behind the rock to get protected against LoS-dependent attacks. Otherwise, LoS factors are dependant on the rock's place on the battlefield and how far it is (just like when hostile target covers another unit).
Mountain Crags: Mountain Crags are similar to massive rock pieces as they can be used by flying creatures. While exposed to additional ranged damage and LoS attacks, units standing on the crags cannot be attacked (even approached) in melee. However, mountain crags are uncommon and have a 50% chance fragility rate, forcing flying units to go back down on the battlefield.
Desert:
Desert, being one of the most unique and distinctive landscape features, is the sole possible sub-special for sand terrain. Sand, however, does not always constitute up to a desert, yet there are no sandy plains, only beaches off seashores.
Adventure Map Effect: Greater movement penalty (Sand - 33%)
Frequency of Obstacle Appearance: Uncommon (10% chance; depends upon placement on the map).
Neutral Obstacles: Small vegetation, rocks, lizard corpses, skeletons.
Special Obstacles: Seif dunes, cactuses, thorn bushes.
Seif Dunes: Similar to hills in purpose, seif dunes are used to overcome the Line of Sight penalties for the unit which is placed on it. However, differently from hills, they do not expose the unit to enemy LoS, still keeping them at a steady security level. Available to both small and large units.
Cactuses: Appears on the battlefield as 1x1 obstacle. Shooters and casters facing the cactus suffer from Line of Sight penalties, as their attacks are rendered completely ineffective. Creatures standing directly behind (adjacent to) a tree suffer less damage from ranged attacks coming from the sides. Cactuses can randomly be combined with seif dunes, providing additional defence from ranged attacks.
Thorn Bushes: Native to severe desert conditions, thorn bushes can randomly enter the battlefield, traversing it from one side to the other. If there are creatures on the way, they suffer damage and the thorn bush remains as an obstacle next to the harmed creature. Large creatures are not affected, but once hit, they also stop it.
Beach:
Beaches, although not comprising a full terrain, merely substituting as the island terrain and the off-shore territory, are a type of rare sandy landscape. With no real effect, these only make up for a passage alongside pools of water.
Adventure Map Effect:Lesser movement penalty (Sand - 15%)
Frequency of Obstacle Appearance: Rare (20% chance).
Neutral Obstacles: Small rock pieces, turtles, sand 'castles', low sand dunes.
Special Obstacles: - none -
Highlands:
Highlands, although basically rocky montane plains, have no additional effect whatsoever. The only difference is the obstacle frequency at which they appear and movement penalty on Adventure Map.
Adventure Map Effect:Medium movement penalty (Rock - 25%)
Frequency of Obstacle Appearance: Extremely Common (45% chance).
Neutral Obstacles: Small vegetation, pieces of red rock, ground rifts, deadwood, skeletons.
Special Obstacles: - none -
Lush:
Lush swamp is unique to the marshlands. Comprised of remarkable vegetation, yet in valleys so low and damp, lush swamps form the passage between swamps. However, the climate only mould together less vegetation that clogs up bypassers. Hence, lush swamp has an additional effect of reducing movement speed of all walking units, except for those native to marshes.
Adventure Map Effect:Medium movement penalty (Swamp - 25%)
Frequency of Obstacle Appearance: Common (35% chance).
Neutral Obstacles: Small marshland vegetation, marshes, mushrooms, deadwood.
Special Obstacles: - none -
Shallow:
Shallow swamp, like the lush swamp, is dank, sticky and tries to clog up all the bypassers that step where they should not. Its additional effect is basicly the same, reducing the movement speed of all walking units. Shallow marshes, however, also have some treacherous obstacles that can not only slow units, but also deceive them and force into terrible dangerous traps.
Adventure Map Effect:Greater movement penalty (Swamp - 33%)
Frequency of Obstacle Appearance: Extremely Common (55% chance).
Neutral Obstacles: Small marshland vegetation, various plants, bushes, mushrooms, deadwood, small ponds.
Special Obstacles: Swales, quicksand, bear traps (vines).
Swales: While completely hidden from plain sight, these obstacles have a chance to force your units into a halt when stepped on them. There is a small chance that a swale will deal poison damage to the unit and may even poison it for several turns.
Quicksand: While completely hidden from plain sight, quicksand can be recognized by some unique herbs growing nearby. When a unit steps on the quicksand, unit is stopped exactly at the spot where it stepped on quicksand. Due to shock, living units get a penalty to morale.
Bear Traps (Vines): While not intentionally (sometimes intentionally by hunters) placed by nature itself, 'bear traps' consist of a set of connected vines that stick out of the ground, grasping bypassing units. These 'bear traps' have a chance of entangling bypassing units, making them unable to move from the spot until the vines are cut (they are cut in one hit).
Rifts:
Rifts, while can be found on various terrain zones as ground rifts, are basicly native to infernal plains. Lava rifts spitting fire, shooting magma bombs and simply flowing on a stream are just what the volcanic dwellers - demons and fire elementals - adore. One of the most terrible landscape types as it is difficult to predict whether the combat is going to take place on a piece of flat rock, surrounded by streaming lava or intercepted distorted rock plates just above the lava flow.
Adventure Map Effect:Greater movement penalty (Lava - 33%)
Frequency of Obstacle Appearance: Moderate (40% chance).
Neutral Obstacles: Obsidian, ashes, volcanic rock, craters, flowing lava streams.
Special Obstacles: Lava ridges, volcanoes, magma rock, magma bombs, fiery hills.
Lava Ridges: Ridges represent an impassible territory, comprised fully of lava. While it is impossible to step on it, standing nearby is no safer either. There is a chance that adjacent units will suffer fire damage.
Volcanoes: Similar to trees, in terms of size, volcanoes occupy a 2x2-3x3 area on the battlefield, followed closely by a volcanic rift. The distinctive feature of volcanoes is their size and Line of sight restriction. Units are completely unable to perform any LoS attacks while standing on the same line with the volcano. Standing directly behind, even though harmful, protects from any incoming ranged attacks except for those performed diagonally or from the side. Standing adjacent to a volcano can exposes units to random fire damage, however.
Magma Rock: While similar in terms of purpose to the swales, they can be seen from distance. Magma Rock is a flat rock plate, broken in several places. Stepping on it exposes the moving unit to a possibility to fall into a lava pit. The unit, from then on, suffers fire damage the turn it falls in and until he moves from the position.
Fiery Hills: While impassable to the sides once stepped onto, a fiery hill represent a flat rock hill surrounded by fire. Somewhat similarly to forest hills, once on the hill, the unit becomes exposed to additional damage from ranged enemy attacks but suffers no Line of Sight penalties. Can be used by small creatures only.
Volcanic Rock:
'Volcanic rock' is actually a term meaning a crossover between lava plains and lava ridges found in the unreachable underground depths. Volcanic ground forms two zones: both a lava terrain zone substituting plains and an underground territory (tunnels, caves and burrows) where molten rock would flow free and turn into stone before your very eyes. The surface of volcanic ground is usually steaming with hot steam, coming from underground water occurences.
Adventure Map Effect: Medium movement penalty (Lava - 25%; Subterranean - 33%)
Frequency of Obstacle Appearance: Rare (15% chance).
Neutral Obstacles: Volcanic rock, ashes, desiccated lava puddles.
Special Obstacles: Geysers.
Geysers: Unique to the volcanic depths, geysers form a 1x1, 1x1, 2x2, etc. obstacle, steaming with hot steam straight out of the ground. While passable by flyers and walkers equally, geysers tend to go off unsuspectedly, dealing damage randomly to the passing units. Sometimes, geysers might not be passable and substitute a simple obstacle.
Subterrane:
Essentially, regular subterrane is the simplest form of rock found underground, in the deep cavities of the subterrane. While providing no additional effects, it proves hard to maneuver for all whose sight is weak and whose movement is not sought out, reducing the size of the battlefield.
Adventure Map Effect: Medium movement penalty (Subterranean - 25%)
Frequency of Obstacle Appearance: Common (30% chance).
Neutral Obstacles: Underground rock, silverish metallic rock pieces, underground vegetation, mushrooms.
Special Obstacles: - none -
Grottoes:
The vilest darkness of the subterrane is called the 'grottoes'. While tunnels and burrows are formed by nature itself, extreme conditions forced the rock as well as the vegetation to strive in damp, dark places, filled with mucus and water. Furthermore, it additionally resizes the battlefield, forming a set of cavities all over.
Adventure Map Effect: Greater movement penalty (Subterranean - 40%)
Frequency of Obstacle Appearance: Common (30% chance).
Neutral Obstacles: Underground rock, ponds, underground vegetation, mucus puddles.
Special Obstacles: Rock 'icicles', immense fungi, rock blockades.
Rock Icicles: Rock icicles sprout from above, towering from the top with their pointed edges. Depending on their size (sometimes do not reach battlefield, sometimes 2x2, 3x2, 4x2), they limit ranged attacks incoming from both, shooters requiring and not requiring Line of Sight, rendering them completely useless. Magical attacks (if not straight) can reach the destination, while casting of spells is completely impossible.
Immense Fungi: Growing in the dank caves, mushrooms appear vile and twisted, spreading roots from the ground and towering high above. Forming a 1x2, 2x2 obstacle, they soak up ranged attacks, rendering them unusable. Shooters and casters facing the fungi suffer from Line of Sight penalties, as their attacks are rendered completely ineffective against targets standing directly at the other side. Creatures standing directly behind (adjacent to) a mushroom suffer 25% less damage from ranged attacks coming from the sides, depending on the size of the unit (only applicable to small units).
Rock Blockades: Basically the same as in mountains, subterranean blockades appear next to mountains as a wall of fallen rocks. Blockades usually take up to 3-4 tiles in length and up to 2 tiles in width, thus restricting both small and large units from using ranged LoS attacks and spells and passing by. Placing a unit directly behind a blockade, can defend from both diagonal and straight attacks (only applicable to small units; large units can only be protected from straight attacks).
Weather Effects:
While weather effects on the battlefield have not been added to the game yet, it is highly possible that this feature might make its appearance in the next installment. Even though the feature slightly turns towards a more realistic combat, it also slides a bit towards the real-time strategy game which is not Heroes. Thus, if we are to toy with the feature, it must have a rather loose effect on the game's outcome. However, it can become rather difficult to combine weather effects with terrain and landscape effects, so I will try to portray the feature in theory.
The primary use for weather effects is to plan your battle according to the weather conditions in the battlefield. The conditions would affect creatures' ability to shoot, their shooting range, casting field, as well as to affect some element-based creatures (eg. phoenixes, elementals, etc.). Weather effects should not be present at every battle, however. While there should be NO stormy terrains or somewhat that had not been included in the game before, landscape types based on the terrain might have several weather effects aligned with them. However, weather effects could either be decided randomly when entering the battle OR decided upon the current week (ie: week of storms, week of fire, etc.). Astrological weeks could also induce weather effects on the Adventure map (eg.: week of storms could slow or hasten movement on terrains where storm effects can be present) but that is another topic. Below you will find a list of possible weather effects:
Wind: Applicable when battle takes place on 'plains'. Depending on the side from which the wind is blowing (remember: there are 8 different directions at which the wind may blow), it affects the shooters' capability to shoot and flyers' capability to fly. If the shooter is attacking and flying units are flying downwind, shooters get an increase in range (a few tiles upfront) at which they are capable of dealing full damage while flyers would get a slight bonus to movement range. The effect on the army facing upwind gets a respective decrease. Wind may change its direction several times per battle. Elemental creatures of air element suffer no penalties and get a bonus to attack and defence.
Swelter: Applicable when battle takes place on 'desert', volcanic terrain. Creatures subject to the effect of swelter suffer a slight penalty to initiative ratings. Swelter affects living creatures and elemental creatures of opposing alignment only. Elemental creatures of fire element suffer no penalties and get a bonus respective to the penalty.
Frost: Applicable when battle takes place on snowy terrain. Creatures subject to the effect suffer a slight penalty to movement rating. Frost affects all creatures, except those resistant to effects of cold, mechanical and elementals. Elemental creatures of air and water elements suffer no penalties and get a bonus respective to the penalty.
Fog: Applicable when battle takes place on 'plains', 'mountains', swamp terrain. Fog heavily affects living flyers and shooters. Shooting creatures subject to its effects suffer a penalty to their range and their damage output. Flying creatures suffer a slight movement penalty.
Storm: Applicable when battle takes place on 'plains'. Storm reduces shooters' capability to shoot, flyers' capability to fly as well as units capability to move. All units suffer a slight penalty to movement. All shooters receive a damage penalty to all ranged attacks. Line of Sight area of coverage range is decreased. Elemental creatures of air element get a medium bonus to their attack and defence rates and do not suffer any penalties, while creatures of the opposing element suffer a respective penalty..
Thunderstorm: Applicable when battle takes place on 'mountains', water terrain. Drastically reduces shooters' capability to shoot, flyers' capability to fly as well as units capability to move. All units suffer a slight penalty to movement. All shooters receive a damage penalty to all ranged attacks. Line of Sight area of coverage range is decreased. Elemental creatures of air and water elements get a medium bonus to their attack and defence rates and do not suffer any penalties, while creatures of the opposing element suffer a respective penalty. There is a chance for the 'thunderstorm' effect to take place, dealing damage randomly to passing units.
Sandstorm: Applicable when battle takes place on 'desert'. Sandstorm can appear for a few rounds and may go off in the same combat. Sandstorm combines effects of storm and swelter. There is a chance for 'dazzle' effect to be placed randomly upon a living creature, rendering it unable to make any harmful action on its turn.
Blizzard: Applicable when battle takes place on snowy terrain. Blizzard increases the effect of frost. Blizzard also slightly reduces shooters' capability to shoot. Elemental creatures of air and water elements get a medium bonus to their attack and defence rates and do not suffer any penalties, while creatures of the opposing element suffer a respective penalty. Blizzard can randomly freeze small creatures for one turn and may deal minor cold damage to non-resistant units.
Firestorm: Applicable when battle takes place on 'rifts'. Firestorm can appear for a few rounds and may go off in the same combat. Firestorm increases the effect of swelter. Can randomly place several 1x1, 1x2 fire walls on the battlefield. Elemental creatures of fire element get a medium bonus to their attack and defence rates and do not suffer any penalties, while creatures of the opposing element suffer a respective penalty. Raining fire can randomly damage units en route OR once a moving unit passes the area where lava is dripping by.
Tempest: Applicable when battle takes place on water terrain. Basically represents 'storm' effect on water terrain. Living creatures subject to the effect would additionally suffer a morale drop of -1 (unless they are aligned with water). Elemental creatures of water element would get a bonus respective to the penalties, while creatures of the opposing element suffer a respective penalty.
These are but the basic examples of how the weather could affect the battlefield. While weather, according to my proposals, is basically dependent on terrain, in my opinion, it can be changed into whatever system. As one of our fervent members stated, and I fully agree with him, it is even better if you could be able, to some extent, invoke weather effects onto the battlefield via spells (such as 'thunderstorm', 'fog', 'frost', etc.).
Concerning Shooters' Range...
Shooters' range is yet another interesting phenomenon that we discussed with Moonlith. While he himself would possibly propose a slightly different system, I picture it my way as well. Shooters' range, in all of the installments of the series, decided how far can a shooter shoot without suffering any damage penalties. While most shooters had the range restricted to half, there were quite a few that would deal maximum damage no matter how far his enemy stood.
While shooters' range was practically always the same (meaning, that up to a certain point in battlefield it would deal maximum damage or deal les), the system could be altered in an interesting manner. I would agree with a system where full range and range penalties were decided accordingly to the unit. While the shooter would be able to shoot over the whole of the battlefield (except if his attacks were restricted by Line of Sight), every creature would have his own specific range where it could deal maximum damage and where it deals half or even less. That would, even though not too much, but still make the game slightly more realistic and would add tactical opportunities.
I would not, however, want to have points on the battlefield unreachable by, say, an archer's arrow just because of a lower range. That would make the game TOO realistic. For example, the case between the elf and an archer. According to fantasy logics, I would say that an elf has a sharper sight than a human, thus, even though that at best they would deal half the normal damage in full range, when it comes to dealing full damage, the elf's max distance value should be greater than the archers' (say, an elf has its half damage penalty until the unit is within 9 tiles away from the creature while the archer would have it within 5-7 tiles away). Then again, it would even be possible to reimplement range penalties of 1/4 and 1/8. So, for example, an orcish shooter (an orc or a goblin) could even have a 1/4 damage range and its full damage range would be around 3 tiles away from him (possibly, within his movement range). Line of Sight, while one of the decisive aspects for the shooters, should have rather little impact on the range.
Affecting the Weather:
While I dared to suggest my proposal concerning the possible inclusion of weather effects into the next installment and, more specifically, its battlefield, let me delve into the opposing element - affecting the weather. Affecting the weather, even though it may sound similar, is quite a different concept and does not basicly have much say about the actual effects of weather on the battlefield that I proposed earlier. Furthermore, it does not revolve around the idea of applying certain weather effects to decide the fate of the battle. Instead, it works through ideas met in the former installments, completely reworked and formed into a new system.
Basically, the new idea of 'affecting weather' revolves around the magic system, more specifically - spells. While we could always see many elemental, seemingly weather-affecting spells that were aligned with certain magic schools, neither of them had the actual effect nor had any factual similarities with the 'weather' in general. The new spells would basically work the same way as most of the ones we had so far. However, they would not only have additional effects on the battlefield, but their main goal would be to affect the battlefield by, to some extent, affecting battlefield. Whether through spells as aforemention, whether through special hero and creature abilities is not an issue. It simply requires a lot of imagination, desire for innovations and a truckload of new ideas that can be possibly implemented.
Below you will find a list of spells (while not completely unique) I managed to gather that could possibly in 'theory' affect (involve the effects) weather, while actually affecting those on the battlefield. The piece is cropped from my magic system, which I will possibly put for display later, but as for now let's focus on the spells/abilities:
Fog: Can also be renamed into 'Mist' or 'Brume'. A mid to low level spell, preferably belonging to elemental or summoning magic spell school. The caster invokes a mist that surrounds the battlefield for a few turns. While subject to the effect, ranged creatures deal less damage and have their shooting range reduced (combined with Line of Sight effects, fog nullifies the possibility of LoS-based attacks to work).
Smoke: Can also be renamed into 'Fog'. A low level spell, preferably belonging to summoning magic spell school. Using natural druidic senses, the caster calls for nature, invoking a cloud of impermeable fog onto the battlefield. All ranged attacks passing over the smoke deal less damage (smoke occupies a 3x3 area on battlefield, but does not serve as an impassable obstacle).
Thunderstorm: A high level spell, preferably belonging to elemental magic spell school. Can also be used as a special ability for Titans and Storm Elementals. The caster concentrates its energy, creating a thundercloud straight onto the battlefield. All creatures in the chosen affected area (and passing through) receive electric damage every turn, while shooters suffer both damage and range penalties (thunderstorm occupies a 3x3 or 5x5 area (depending on mastery) and deals electric air/lightning-based damage).
Frost: A mid to mid-high level spell, preferably belonging to elemental magic spell school. Calling upon the nature of frozen heights, the caster is able to alter the climate on the battlefield. Frost affects creatures not resistant to cold-based effects and not elemental. Frost randomly deals damage to creatures that move. Movement speed of creatures subject to the effect is also slightly reduced (frost can be used both as a mass or as an area-of-effect spell (preferably 4x4), depending on mastery).
Dazzle: A mid level spell, preferably belonging to arcane magic spell school. Concentrating the solar light beams into a dazzling flare, the caster dazzles the selected target, making him unable to perform any hostile actions for a short amount of time (only available on battlefields where sun may protrude; affects living creatures only and not immune to blinding spells).
Whirlwind: A mid-high to high level spell, preferably belonging to elemental magic spell school. Can also be used as a special ability for units aligned with the air element (eg. storm elementals). The caster encircles himself within a whirlwind, hurling terrible gusts of wind at his foes. The whirlwind deals low to moderate damage to affected creatures and has a chance to knock back the targets a few tiles back (knockback affects small creatures only; can form a whirl on adjacent tiles (two tiles from the caster), on the selected area (possibly 5x5, except for the middle spot) or up to five tiles in front of the caster (similar to the prismatic breath attack in Heroes 5).
Gust of Wind: A mid-low to mid level spell, preferably belong to elemental or summoning magic spell school. The caster hurls a fervent gust of wind at its foes, displacing them and changing the direction of the wind in the selected area (if the weather effects are not present in-game, gust of wind adds a sort of 'wind' effect to the are, reducing effectiveness for ranged attacks when shooting over it and of the shooters affected by the gust).
Maelstrom: A mid-high to high level spell, preferably belonging to elemental magic spell school. Delving into the lore of arcane elementalism, elementalists of water are able to draw energy from it to form a massive whirlpool on the battlefield. The summoned maelstrom deals cold damage to the affected targets, while covering the area in a puddle of water (ice, dirt, depending on the terrain). Creatures trapped within the area of effect cannot move for several turns (other actions may be performed; maelstrom serves as an impassable obstacle until the effect wears off).
Blizzard: A high level spell, preferably belonging to elemental magic spell school. Doubling the energy coming from the icy veins, the caster summons a fierce blizzard onto the battlefield, dealing heavy ice damage to all affected creatures. Creatures resistant to cold-based effects do not suffer any penalties. Creatures are additionally subject to the effect of 'frost' (the spell drains a lot of mana; blizzard may affect either the whole battlefield, or the selected area (4x4)).
Air Shield: Can also be renamed into 'Whirlwind'. A mid-low to mid level spell, preferably belonging to elemental or summoning magic spell school, with the possibility of belonging to arcane or light. The caster encircles the target within a gale of streaming wind that deflects incoming physical ranged attacks. Can randomly deflect attacks upon other units (friend or foe alike, unless stated differently or the creature is immune). Hostile creatures attacking the creature in melee suffer low air-based damage (attacks are deflected to units on adjacent tiles; cumulative with other bonuses against ranged attacks, but not with damage-reducing blessings).
Lightning/Fire Shield: A mid-high level spell, preferably belonging to elemental magic spell school. Usually used as a protective ability for units aligned with the corresponding element. The caster encircles the selected target within a cone of energy that deals damage to attacking melee units upon suffering damage (can only be cast on units not carrying own enchantments; short term duration).
Volcanic Eruption: A mid-high to high level spell, preferably belonging to elemental magic spell school. Depending on the terrain on which the battle is taking place, the caster may call upon the daemonic forces of fire, erupting searing flames from the ground and dealing damage to the foes in the selected area. The area is further on marked with fire, increasing vulnerability to fire and respectively increasing immunity to its effects. May deal additional damage (volcanic eruption occupies a total of 8-12 tiles forming a disoriented 8-pointed star; if 'combined' with weather effects, it may additionally add effects similar to 'swelter').
These are but a few real simple examples, none of which really add something extremely unique (I am lacking imagination at this very moment, I may add once I see something of value or even think of something). However, they represent how weather (and terrain, to some extent) interferes in spell casting and special ability usage, allowing the heroes to affect the weather conditions on the battlefield themselves. Really, as some have stated, the weather effects could be controlled additionally with special hero abilities, skills and even racial attributes.
Here ends my work of art. While this thread is basically my proposal, I'd welcome your opinion on this issue and I'd welcome your ideas of how you would perceive the whole battlefield system. I might eventually add more details what concerns this, if I find something suitable.
(For future reference, I immediately excuse if some of the material posted here is reposted from others or something had been discussed before, but some of the material used helped me ground some of my statements.)
The post has just been updated, things reworked and new things added. Keep in touch to see the new stuff.
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Daystar
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Back from the Dead
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posted January 24, 2008 10:06 PM |
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oh my goddess, +QP. Then -QP for writing a novel. That is my job. And Mytical and Arduis's job.
This is an interesting proposal, but I think you're not flushing it out to full potential. Weather effects could cause, for instance, pools of ice that creatures slide across. Infernal rifts could shoot out demons or other things.
I like your ideas for line of sight, those work well.
Sorry, I know this is way too short, but your ideas are so solid I can't say much about them!
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How exactly is luck a skill?
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TDL
Honorable
Supreme Hero
The weak suffer. I endure.
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posted January 24, 2008 10:10 PM |
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Quote:
oh my goddess, +QP. Then -QP for writing a novel. That is my job. And Mytical and Arduis's job.
This is an interesting proposal, but I think you're not flushing it out to full potential. Weather effects could cause, for instance, pools of ice that creatures slide across. Infernal rifts could shoot out demons or other things.
I like your ideas for line of sight, those work well.
Sorry, I know this is way too short, but your ideas are so solid I can't say much about them!
I did not want to develop over-imaginative weather effects as those have little chance appearing in-game... these proposals MAY (hopefully) appear in game...
But still, I might work more on these ideas 
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Zeromus
Adventuring Hero
and happy about it
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posted January 25, 2008 06:57 AM |
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I was just wondering, would it work if those obstacles on battles would block sight and hide creatures behind it completely? Like, say you have a battlefield with huge rocks making a maze in the middle, your army on other side and the enemy on other side. Then, you just have to send troops to explore the battle map to find your opponents.
And, if someone don´t like it that way, it could be made so it can be switched off in the options. Wouldn´t that be cool?
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booboo
Adventuring Hero
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posted January 25, 2008 10:25 AM |
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TDL, really cool ideas overall!
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TDL
Honorable
Supreme Hero
The weak suffer. I endure.
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posted January 25, 2008 10:56 AM |
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Quote:
I was just wondering, would it work if those obstacles on battles would block sight and hide creatures behind it completely? Like, say you have a battlefield with huge rocks making a maze in the middle, your army on other side and the enemy on other side. Then, you just have to send troops to explore the battle map to find your opponents.
And, if someone don´t like it that way, it could be made so it can be switched off in the options. Wouldn´t that be cool?
First off, answering to your first question, it would work. Heroes is a game of might and magic and more and more new features are continuously being added. But to ground my statement fully, I will take a look at the situation given. To answer this simply, this is not the primary intention to have a maze with a lot of rocks. As aforementioned, if we take a look at the mountains' landscape obstacles, it would look that it may be possible to form a maze using the obstacles given. BUT nature is unpredictable and it will never form a maze in the first place. The obstacles DO NOT always appear on the battlefield. Besides, certain obstacles have a certain place of appearance (ie: rock blockades will only appear next to mountains (1-2 tiles away at maximum)).
Secondly, according to my ideas and calculations, this would not only be impossible, but would also prove impractical. You cannot opt out combat features like morale or luck, can you? This is basically the same. Obstacles and everything else I described here should be first worked out before applying so that such questions would never arise.
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Moonlith
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
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posted January 25, 2008 02:45 PM |
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I think the heroes of might and magic battlefield is quite an interesting topic, but at the same time a very difficult one. It is hard to decide really which installment used the best sort of grid, wether to go for squares or hexes.
I'm not sure how valid this statement is, but for some reason I've kept feeling battles in Heroes 5 are much faster than they used to be, perhaps due to the 12x10 grid, which seems smaller. Speed ratings are as well less distinguished than as they used to be, now ranging from 3 - 8, where they used to range from 3 - 18 in heroes 3. Quite a difference! Additionally, I believe before, reaching enemy creatures in one turn used to be a privilege of many flyers, while numerous walkers can do so now as well in H5. Wether these changes are good or bad, I'll leave open for debate.
I like your suggestions, TDL, but there are of course complications to what extend it is all possible. I imagine it would be difficult to program the game to recognize the surroundings of a battle and set the battlefield accordingly. Having treasure chests and the like appear in the background is not something I care too much about. And I have to admit I rather miss the sky backgrounds of battlefields in H3.
I agree fullheartedly the number of terrain obstacles should depend on the terrain type. I wonder if it would be possible to add a number of cross-section-covering trees on the battlefield if the battle takes place in dense forests, making only narrow passages?
I'm not sure if I fully got your suggestion for mountain passage battles. Did you mean the battlefield grid would be both narrowed and stretched? Radical, but logical and interesting, and I would suspect especially usefull for armies having more ranged troops.
I would be carefull though with the weather suggestions. There are already numerous luck factors that can determine the whole outcome of a battle, for example, wether or not your grim raiders get to act first or not. I fear adding factors such as up or against wind only adds another luck factor that can determine the whole outcome of a battle. If anything, it would be nice only for ambiance, and otherwise, players should know beforehand what they might be dealing with.
Line of Sight is definately an effect that should be brought back, as well the possibility of creatures blocking ranged attacks and taking them. Still, one needs to take into account the difference between straight or arched ranged attacks. For example, archers and woodelves could easily aim upwards, whereas mages cannot. Should this difference have an additional effect? It seems a bit wrong to design a LoS system based around the principle that all ranged attacks are either straight or arched, there's a clear difference.
I don't think I've contributed a lot, but hey, it's better than nothing Good topic !
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TDL
Honorable
Supreme Hero
The weak suffer. I endure.
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posted January 25, 2008 03:01 PM |
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Quote:
I'm not sure if I fully got your suggestion for mountain passage battles. Did you mean the battlefield grid would be both narrowed and stretched? Radical, but logical and interesting, and I would suspect especially usefull for armies having more ranged troops.
Basically, yes. Mountain passage battlefield would be slightly narrowed as the mountain would interfere in the battle. Combined with Line of Sight, however, it would be rather difficult to make use of ranged troops, thus you would have to tactically decide how you want to achieve your goals (ie. to reach the enemy with larger units, if obstacles block the path, etc.)
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I would be carefull though with the weather suggestions. There are already numerous luck factors that can determine the whole outcome of a battle, for example, wether or not your grim raiders get to act first or not. I fear adding factors such as up or against wind only adds another luck factor that can determine the whole outcome of a battle. If anything, it would be nice only for ambiance, and otherwise, players should know beforehand what they might be dealing with.
Actually, I find weather a feature that could be rather to implement. First off, there are always factors that affect the strength of your creatures (attack, defence, damage, artifacts that boost their stats, primary hero stats, etc.) but these factors should not be decisive all the time. Weather effects would add variation. As they would not always be present, it would equalize the scales and sometimes give an edge to the losing side.
Quote:
Line of Sight is definately an effect that should be brought back, as well the possibility of creatures blocking ranged attacks and taking them. Still, one needs to take into account the difference between straight or arched ranged attacks. For example, archers and woodelves could easily aim upwards, whereas mages cannot. Should this difference have an additional effect? It seems a bit wrong to design a LoS system based around the principle that all ranged attacks are either straight or arched, there's a clear difference.
Yes, I was thinking about the difference among ranged units, and yes, while some should be able shoot every time, others would depend on Line of Sight. For example: mages (both shooters and spellcasters) would require line of sight to perform their attacks. Besides, if mages retain their old ability to shoot magical attacks, obstacles restricting from shooting would prove to be even more logical. Elves, on the other hand, using magical bows and their keen elven sense, would "feel" the exact location of their enemies, thus they would bypass Line of Sight restrictions.
However, if I were to talk about archers, it would again prove to be a difficult case. Archers are humans, thus they must see the enemy to be able to shoot. However, if they retain their ability to perform "scattered shot", they would deal less damage but shoot over the Line of Sight cap.
Line of Sight would be pretty straightforward with most casters though. IF they require line of sight to cast a certain spell, they will not be able to cast it otherwise. Yet, shooters' capability to shoot with or without LoS, would again be dependent on multiple other factors (ie.: if the ranged attack is physical (an arrow), magical, mental (ie.: a psychic elementals telepathic damage wave) etc.)
Line of Sight effects would have to be diverse and the more so, the better.
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Moonlith
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
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posted January 25, 2008 04:26 PM |
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I really like the idea of the long stretched battlefield, it really adds a new dimension and strategic plans.
Quote:
Actually, I find weather a feature that could be rather to implement. First off, there are always factors that affect the strength of your creatures (attack, defence, damage, artifacts that boost their stats, primary hero stats, etc.) but these factors should not be decisive all the time. Weather effects would add variation. As they would not always be present, it would equalize the scales and sometimes give an edge to the losing side.
Or it spells your instant defeat, depending on your luck of being up or down wind. Weather affecting small things is totally ok, but I would rather be carefull with the amount of effect it would have. It's bad if it can determine the outcome of a battle. Likewise, I'm against very powerfull artifacts. So it may add a nice variety, as long as it is not too powerfull, in the sense that the odds are so tipped that a player's skill doesn't matter anymore.
Otherwise, instead of it being random, I'd rather like to think of it as a unique racial skill for a hero, an ability to affect the weather. Or additionally as a racial skill.
As for Line of Sight, I do wonder how blocking creatures should affect ranged attacks. Do small blocking creatures take half the damage, and the large creature behind them also half the damage, or none?
There's also the problem of taking into account terrain obstacles and their height. Although that could easily be solved by simpyl setting certain objects as high enough to block a line of sight.
Additionally, what do you think of the concept of having a certain range value for ranged units? A sort of maximum range they can fire at, or a maximum range at which they do full damage, half the damage till twice that range, a fourth till three times that range, etc.
The reason I'm asking this is because I'd easily picture woodelves to be dealing full damage at a longer range than marksmen.
On the other hand, one could wonder if varying maximum range wouldn't be just overcomplicating the game.
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TDL
Honorable
Supreme Hero
The weak suffer. I endure.
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posted January 25, 2008 06:20 PM |
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Edited by TDL at 18:44, 25 Jan 2008.
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As for Line of Sight, I do wonder how blocking creatures should affect ranged attacks. Do small blocking creatures take half the damage, and the large creature behind them also half the damage, or none?
There's also the problem of taking into account terrain obstacles and their height. Although that could easily be solved by simpyl setting certain objects as high enough to block a line of sight.
Additionally, what do you think of the concept of having a certain range value for ranged units? A sort of maximum range they can fire at, or a maximum range at which they do full damage, half the damage till twice that range, a fourth till three times that range, etc.
The reason I'm asking this is because I'd easily picture woodelves to be dealing full damage at a longer range than marksmen.
On the other hand, one could wonder if varying maximum range wouldn't be just overcomplicating the game.
I saw that I missed 'easy' where that rather to implement part is  I would not like to comment on the first part of your post, but on the second. Seems we have agreed on the implementation of line of sight into the game, but I will try to answer the questions you posed from my point of view.
I did not really include Line of Sight damage absorption difference which I will include later on, but for now, let us picture it this way. If there is a failure for the LoS-based attack to take place, the attacking unit simply CANNOT attack the unit behind. The only possibility is to attack the creature in front. Damage should not be redistributed. Thus, A small creature should be able to defend another small creature from Line of Sight based ranged attacks, while a large creature should be able to defend a large one and would always defend a smaller one. However, when it comes to large and small shooters attacking large creatures it becomes a bit different. Large creatures should be able to defend those of the same size, but small creatures should basicly be unable to defend a large creature UNLESS there are special abilities which allow you to do so.
As for the shooters' range, it is yet another interesting thing. I would not, however, want to have points on the battlefield unreachable by, say, an archer's arrow just because of a lower range. That would make the game TOO realistic. Yet, I would agree that full range and range penalties could be decided accordingly to the unit. For example, the same case with the elf and an archer. I would say that an elf has a sharper sight than a human (if i had to propose creature line-ups, I would also remove LoS requirements for elves for their elven sense), thus, even though that at best they could have full damage range, when it comes to half damage range, the elf's max distance should be farther than the archers' (say, an elf has its half damage penalty until the unit is within 9 tiles away from the creature while the archer would have it within 5-7 tiles away). Then again, it would even be possible to reimplement range penalties of 1/4 and 1/8. So, for example, an orcish shooter (an orc or a goblin) could even have a 1/4 damage range and its full damage range would be around 3 tiles away from him (possibly, within his movement range).
Quote:
Or it spells your instant defeat, depending on your luck of being up or down wind. Weather affecting small things is totally ok, but I would rather be carefull with the amount of effect it would have. It's bad if it can determine the outcome of a battle. Likewise, I'm against very powerfull artifacts. So it may add a nice variety, as long as it is not too powerfull, in the sense that the odds are so tipped that a player's skill doesn't matter anymore.
Yes, I have to agree on that. These weather things should be worked through to be added to the game as it is difficult to test their effect 'in theory'. Nevertheless, weather effects and mastery of weather was my Bastion town's racial skill and it would form an interesting racial skill if it it was allowed to control weather effects in (or add into) the battlefield.
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GenieLord
Honorable
Legendary Hero
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posted January 26, 2008 05:32 PM |
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First of all, this proposal is a great one, very well developed and it seems like it's a concultion from an analysis of the previous battlefield systems. Making new things by learning from the previous is a good creation way.  You have put here so much efforts (and it really took a lot of time to finish reading all this ).
Weather Effects
I really love the idea of having weather on the battlefield. I want to add some other suggestions for weather:
Fog - appears on the mountains (30% chance to appear) and very rarely on other landspaces (2% chance to appear). All shooters receive a 10% damage penalty to all ranged attacks, and the speed and iniatiative of all the creatures on the battlefield is descreased by 1. +10% chance to miss while trying to hit Incorporeal creatures.
Rainbow - appears on plains (10% chance to appear), and has a higher chance to appear after a storm (30% chance to appear). Increases the luck of all the good creatures on the battlefield by 2.
Acid Rain - appears very rarely on Plains (2% chance to appear). Damanges all the living creatures, with a small randomal damage, and may cause decays. Creatures with the ability Acid Blood get a +1 bonus to their attack and defence rates and don't suffer any penalties.
Haze - a filthy Fog. Appears on the Desert and on the Lava (5% chance to appear). Has all the effects of the Fog, and it descreases the health points of all the living creatures by 10%.
Movement on Adventure map
In my opinion, the movemnet changes should be according to the specific types of landscape (Plains, Rocky, Forest, etc), not accoding to the "climate" (Desert, Grass, Snow, etc). For example, if we have a shallow swamp, it shouldn't have the same movement penalty as a Lush (tropical) swamp should have.
» Grass:
Plains - Normal movement.
Mountains - 50% movement penalty.
Forest - 25% movement penalty.
» Sand:
Desert - 33% movemnt penalty.
See Shore - 20% movement penalty.
» Rock:
Mountains - 50% movement penalty.
Rocklands - 20% movement penalty.
» Dirt:
Plains - Normal movement.
Forest - 25% movement penalty.
» Swamp:
Lush - 33% movement penalty.
Shallow - 10% movement penalty.
» Lava:
Rifts - 30% movement penalty.
Plains - 20% movement penalty.
» Snow:
Plains - 15% movement penalty.
Forest - 30% movement penalty.
Mountains - 55% movement penalty.
» Roads:
All the kinds of roads - 50% movement bonus.
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TDL
Honorable
Supreme Hero
The weak suffer. I endure.
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posted January 26, 2008 05:42 PM |
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Quote:
I really love the idea of having weather on the battlefield. I want to add some other suggestions for weather:
Fog - appears on the mountains (30% chance to appear) and very rarely on other landspaces (2% chance to appear). All shooters receive a 10% damage penalty to all ranged attacks, and the speed and iniatiative of all the creatures on the battlefield is descreased by 1. +10% chance to miss while trying to hit Incorporeal creatures.
Rainbow - appears on plains (10% chance to appear), and has a higher chance to appear after a storm (30% chance to appear). Increases the luck of all the good creatures on the battlefield by 2.
Hey GL. These two things you added I like very much, but I would not want to risk with the two I opted out. The Fog can be very well implemented into the game, with tweaked effects. Rainbow, could be as well, but only after storms or so, and it should have a slightly lesser impact of boosting luck by 1 instead of 2.
Quote:
Movement on Adventure map
In my opinion, the movemnet changes should be according to the specific types of landscape (Plains, Rocky, Forest, etc), not accoding to the "climate" (Desert, Grass, Snow, etc). For example, if we have a shallow swamp, it shouldn't have the same movement penalty as a Lush (tropical) swamp should have.
» Grass:
Plains - Normal movement.
Mountains - 50% movement penalty.
Forest - 25% movement penalty.
» Sand:
Desert - 33% movemnt penalty.
See Shore - 20% movement penalty.
» Rock:
Mountains - 50% movement penalty.
Rocklands - 20% movement penalty.
» Dirt:
Plains - Normal movement.
Forest - 25% movement penalty.
» Swamp:
Lush - 33% movement penalty.
Shallow - 10% movement penalty.
» Lava:
Rifts - 30% movement penalty.
Plains - 20% movement penalty.
» Snow:
Plains - 15% movement penalty.
Forest - 30% movement penalty.
Mountains - 55% movement penalty.
» Roads:
All the kinds of roads - 50% movement bonus.
Uber cool idea. The terrain specializations could be divided accordingly to certain landscape types, just as you told. However, I would also tweak the percentages to not make it too much.
Nothing much to comment on really, these ideas are really cool =)
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GenieLord
Honorable
Legendary Hero
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posted January 27, 2008 03:04 PM |
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Thank you, TDL.
I just want to add something:
Last time I thought about weather on the battlefield, it was for a spell or a racial skill. I think that summoning weather effects can be a very interesting thing.
It can be a racial ability for certain races, when the battle is on their native terrain. For example, Elven would be able to summon Rainbows, Nagas would be able to summon Tempests, Nomads would be able to summon Sandstorms, etc.
Summoning storms can appear as a spell, since it's common on most of the terrains. The spell would be called "Summon Storm" and it wouldn't be castable on Lava and Desert terrains. It would have the same effects of regular storms.
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VokialBG
Honorable
Legendary Hero
First in line
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posted January 27, 2008 03:39 PM |
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So... time for new HTML, PDF book? 
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Daystar
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Back from the Dead
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posted January 27, 2008 05:10 PM |
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Perhaps if summon storm is cast it would cast lighting bolt on random stacks?
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How exactly is luck a skill?
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GenieLord
Honorable
Legendary Hero
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posted January 27, 2008 06:02 PM |
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Oh, I thought it was obvious.
TDL, can you add the lightning to your description of the storm? I should be something like:
Storm: Drastically reduces shooters' capability to shoot, flyers' capability to fly as well as units capability to move, and generates some lightenings to the battlefield. All units suffer a -1 penalty to movement. All shooters receive a 10% damage penalty to all ranged attacks. Flyers get an additional penalty to their initiative of -1. Random lightnings strike the creatures on the battlefield once per a several turns, with a damage of 7-15X[caster's SP]. Elemental creatures of air element would get a +2 bonus to their attack and defence rates and would not suffer any penalties.
I added the lightnings part, the damage it causes, which is pretty low, but still dependent on the caster's spell power, since logically, a better caster would summon more powerful storm with stronger lightnings. I hope it's acceptable.
I also removed the part Quote:
there is a small chance that physical non-magical ranged attacks might not reach the destination
I don't think this would do any good - it's mainly annoying and doesn't have tactical effect at all.
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When Elemental creatures from a certain element get a bonus on a certain weather (like the fire element's creatures' bonus when there's Swelter), the opposite elemental (water) can get a penalty. That makes sense.
Examples:
1. Swelter: This would affect living creatures only. Creatures subject to the effect would suffer a -1 penalty to attack and a 5% penalty to total hit points. Elemental creatures of fire element would get a +1 bonus to their attack and a 5% increase in damage and would not suffer any penalties. Elemental creatures of water element would get a -1 penalty to their attack and a 5% descrease in damage.
2. Frost: This would affect living creatures only. Creatures subject to the effect would suffer a penalty in movement range and initiative (or whatever measure is used to decide how creatures act in battle). Elemental creatures of water element would get a +1 bonus to their attack and defence rates and would not suffer any penalties. Elemental creatures of fire element would get a -1 penalty to their attack and defence rates.
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Andmcmuffin2
Hired Hero
In need of Undead Avatar
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posted January 27, 2008 06:32 PM |
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Quote:
Examples:
1. Swelter: This would affect living creatures only. Creatures subject to the effect would suffer a -1 penalty to attack and a 5% penalty to total hit points. Elemental creatures of fire element would get a +1 bonus to their attack and a 5% increase in damage and would not suffer any penalties. Elemental creatures of water element would get a -1 penalty to their attack and a 5% descrease in damage.
2. Frost: This would affect living creatures only. Creatures subject to the effect would suffer a penalty in movement range and initiative (or whatever measure is used to decide how creatures act in battle). Elemental creatures of water element would get a +1 bonus to their attack and defence rates and would not suffer any penalties. Elemental creatures of fire element would get a -1 penalty to their attack and defence rates.
Erm, I don't think that undead would mind the swelter, but wouldn't frost be slippery and have bones freezing together and all? Of course incorporeal units have no cares on the weather, but Golem's already low initiative I think should be lower with frost because joints freeze and rust and all.
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The wraith is reserved?!?! NOOOO I'M NOT GOING TO BE PINK AND UNDEAD!
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TDL
Honorable
Supreme Hero
The weak suffer. I endure.
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posted January 27, 2008 11:08 PM |
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Thanks for everybody's comments, I like that I receive more input. I will eventually update the master post with certain changes (over the following week) and several additions.
Have just updated the master post and changes are quite easy to notice. While not much of the basic material was reworked, line of sight, landscape and terrain, as well as weather effects, were updated with a lot of new stuff.
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Orfinn
Supreme Hero
Werewolf Duke
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posted January 28, 2008 07:52 PM |
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Edited by Orfinn at 19:52, 28 Jan 2008.
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Amazing writing and proposal there, QP well earned
I saw in my Heroes Complete Edition book that in fact Nival toyed around with weather effects and day/night cycles for H5 a while (fall 2003 I think it stood) but were scrapped. In the end I guess such features would demand even more processing power from your computer.
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TDL
Honorable
Supreme Hero
The weak suffer. I endure.
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posted January 28, 2008 08:15 PM |
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Quote:
I saw in my Heroes Complete Edition book that in fact Nival toyed around with weather effects and day/night cycles for H5 a while (fall 2003 I think it stood) but were scrapped. In the end I guess such features would demand even more processing power from your computer.
No wonder =] However they could simplify their game engine, polish some details and adapt it to fit our needs, regardless of what our systems are... I admit my computer can run any game at maximum graphical settings except for heroes, so it needs some advanced editing if I want to run it smoothly.
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