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| Thread: Revelution of stronghold and Fortress |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted December 02, 2004 10:47 PM |
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Quote:
......... they have no creature that is in the top 3 for their level. The only other town with as weak individual creatures as inferno is fortress,........
I have to say, i´m not a fan of inferno either, but these 2 statements forced me to post something here..
1. In my opinion, efreet sultans sure are one of the 3 best level 6 units
2. Archdevils are da bomb. No other level 7 unit can take out more opponents then these hell-leaders..
3. Demoniacs is the hero class with the highest chance to get logistics
4. Fortress units weak?....hmmmm
Sure, wyverns are the weakest level 6 besides the mantis, but therefore u get them very early (day 2 if lucky) and can do some harder fights (against shooters for example) which u wont do with other town units that early. And u can make the well known "wyvern-hording" by visiting many dragonflyhives...
Lizardwarriors are way too underestimated, (dragon-)flies are 1 of the 3 best level 3units imho and give good advantage in early game, not only coz of much movement for your scouts.
Mighty moos are out of discussion i think....
And some Chaoshydras with shield and stoneskin could be very nasty..
Just my 2 cents....
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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csarmi
Supreme Hero
gets back
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posted December 03, 2004 12:29 AM |
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Inferno and level unit ranks.
Well:
Arch Devils are very good level 7's - no retaliation, high speed and the fact they hate angels make them very good. Sure top 3.
Efreet sultans are the best level 6 units in the game, but if you start arguing we can agree at top 3 as Angelito said.
I'd place pit lords in the top 3 too, not only because of their deamon raising, but their availability and the damage they make.
Horned Deamons are just an average level 4's, but there are a lot of them.
Cerberi average too, but they can be very scary if used well.
Magogs and Familiars - they aren't bad for start at all and you won't use them in the long run.
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Shenjairo
Known Hero
Simsalabim
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posted December 03, 2004 12:57 AM |
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Woowoo, balance discussions! We can hopefully stay civil during it
1. For the sixth level units dread knights really shine, many will put naga queens as second best too, just a pity they are so expensive. As for third to fifth pick I differ slightly based on what day it is, but most of the time I will put champions ahead of efreet sultans because of the greater damage and hit points. War unicorns are ok too, but most of the time I place them as fifth. I agree that the sultans are good, but I do wish they had 10 more hp in which case they would be third for me. If looking just at individual units the criticism vs stronghold can be understood too as it's the only town along with inferno that has no top two unit. But while stronghold is really cheap and to me works better as a team the inferno town has about the same speed as for example my beloved dungeon while having worse units. If I were to fight a level six creature on the adventure map the efreets would be the last one I would want to fight though because of their great speed.
2. Archdevils are cool and most of the time their low hp doesn't matter, and in some weird cases you can do wonders with force field, but now and then they do get pummeled or shot at and I really wish they could last a bit longer. I have them firmly in the middle, fifth unit. It would be very rare that I would prefer an archdevil stack vs a similar stack of archangels.
3. Never said anything against Demoniacs, I think they are excellent. Good enough level up stats, and probably best skill selection. The only thing really against them is no percentage based super hero (Crag Hack, Tazar, Gunnar, Kyrre etc).
4. Yeah as a team I like fortress, the only thing that saves the wyverns from being the worst sixth level are the things you mentioned, cheap build and dragonfly hives. While stats 1 on 1 wyverns are the worst, the scorpires in a real game is the worst. When I played this game more the lizard warriors and serpent flies hadn't been upgraded in any patch, so they did indeed suck and way back it's rather understandable why people didn't like fortress and maybe it's possible that some still base their opinion on that? I rate the lizard warriors far up, but serpents in the middle. Grand elves and royal griffins are top 2, but then it's open for discussion again. I do like evil eyes more and sometimes the cerberi, so it's a middle unit to me. Basilisk also middle, the two moo units are the best level fives so here fortress shines. I may have to take back some about fortress but the major disappointment to me is their top two units. The wyverns has been mentioned already and I see no worse level seven than the chaos hydra. Situationally they too can do some amazing stuff, but overall their movement disappoints me. If playing an XL map without Tazar they really don't shine as much as they do on the smaller maps.
I don't really hate any team, and all can do very well in the right circumstances. This is just my general view on usefulness. I don't think the gaps are that wide either, but if you have to make a list and don't share any positions someone has to come last. For example let's say dungeon is 5% better than inferno on a general basis, but if me and csarmi would play that wouldn't matter since he's probably a 50% better player than me.
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Shenjairo
Known Hero
Simsalabim
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posted December 03, 2004 01:26 AM |
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Must have started my above post just after csarmi posted, didn't see it. Making another post to reply.
Archdevils. 5th for me, would put the angels, the two dragons and titan before them. Maybe better than the gold dragons but can't stretch higher than 4th place.
Efreet sultans. 3rd maybe, I really don't see them being the top dog though.
Pit lords. Mighty gorgons and minotaur kings are the best for sure, seems a tad high to put pit lords as third. I like both thunderbirds and power liches more, but they do have some units behind them.
Horned Demons. The worst, maybe tied with silver pegasi. Only saved by their huge numbers.
Cerberi. 4 or 5 somewhere, middle.
Magogs. Kinda blah, wish they had better speed.
Familiars. The worst.
I am trying to be as neutral as I can and not let my general dislike for demonic creatures come in between. I will do a ranking for my favorite town too for comparison.
Black dragon. Hold it as next best after the archangel.
Scorpicore. Bleh, waste of a unit. Worst.
Minotaur King. Second after the mighty moo's.
Medusa Queen. Middle somewhere, decent shooter.
Evil eyes. Third for me after grand elves and royal griffins. Probably fourth after the ice elementals, I really haven't played with conflux though (1 whole map) and can't judge their units very well.
Harpy hags. Middle, slightly low damage and with dungeon you hardly ever go for water magic for mass bless. Unupgraded really bad.
Infernal troglodyte. Decent, middlish.
I don't think my dungeon has the best units, but I do like them. If trying to do a ranking that would be unbiased and that people would accept as mostly true someone like Xarfax would probably have to do it, but I don't think he would be interested in it
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solo
Hired Hero
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posted December 03, 2004 09:30 AM |
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Thats strange, you all bypassing AB which are REALLY cool IMHO, ok 1v1 he isnt that strong, but we are comparing the whole team, i mean where you can get a better price/performance unit?!?3000gold and 1 crystal for 300HP and superb spec?bypasses 80% defense!
Plus avery one mentions Crag as the best barb hero, why is that?IMHO battlemsges are better, especially Dessa, BM are well balanced, and i dont even build mage guilds...why do i have to build guilds when i can intercept my opponents town by using Dessa's superior speed and TAKE all the hard earned spells from my opponent, i may sound n00bish, but it wirked well for me so far
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tigris
Supreme Hero
Supreme Noobolator
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posted December 03, 2004 11:44 AM |
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Edited By: tigris on 3 Dec 2004
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now i don't mean this as an argument, just some facts that imho are enough to make inferno one of the weakest(if not the weakest castle in the game)
Quote:
Arch Devils are very good level 7's - no retaliation, high speed and the fact they hate angels make them very good. Sure top 3.
True, no doubt about it. They have the second highest att/def stats in the game (att 26/def 28),decent damage(40), second highest speed(17) and the special is great.This doesn't come cheap though: 4500 gold and 2 mercur is the third most expensive unit in the game after AA and titans.
Quote:
Efreet sultans are the best level 6 units in the game, but if you start arguing we can agree at top 3 as Angelito said.
Fair enough although not that sure about that one.They have decent att/deff stats(att 16/def 14),decent health(90), crappy damage(16-24 too bad they can be cursed )
and 1100 gold it's quite a bargain come to think of it, but the special deffenetly puts them in the top 4(i'd say)
Quote:
I'd place pit lords in the top 3 too, not only because of their deamon raising, but their availability and the damage they make.
That's where i start to dissagree.indead the damage they make is the second overall(13-17)after minotaur kings(12-20) but the others aren't far behind.Another bonus is the att/ def stats wich is great(att 13/def 13).The weak spots here are Hp's(only 45)so very thin for a grunt(that's what they are, aren't they?) and the costs(700 gold)ties with thunderbirds for first place.So not very cost efective. And don't tell me about demon farming.You get your upgrade day 15 and the outcome of most multiplayer matches is...couple of days later.So how much demons can you raise?This is for fun in long single scenarios with diplomacy.(imho)
Quote:
Horned Deamons are just an average level 4's, but there are a lot of them.
About the numbers i've already pointed out that i disagree.As for their performances i'll agree it's average.
Quote:
Cerberi average too, but they can be very scary if used well.
Another expensive unit (2nd after the evil eye)It costs 250 gold.Crappy damage(2-7).Average hp.
Quote:
Magogs and Familiars - they aren't bad for start at all and you won't use them in the long run.
magogs: low hp(12),average damage(2-4), second most expensive lvl 2 unit(175) after storm(250)
bad to start with imho
imps:low hp(4), low damage(1-2),high costs(60) nuff said
Now as an overview inferno is on the second to last place concearning hp/week(only 2003 hp/week, dungeon has 2002hp/week whereas rampart has a staggering 2650hp/week)
As for damage that can be delivered by a week's population inferno is the weakest castle with a damage between 266 and 565 whereas castle units deal a massive 535 to 732/week.Inferno is the third most expensive castle to recruit units from with 27610 gold and 4 mercur after tower(30600+4 gems) and castle(29730gold)
So in my oppinion inferno is indead weak.
Edit@ go to this site for a very interesting table about building costs.
As i couldn't find the link i was talking about i've deleted the fragment concearning online playing with inferno for fear of not misleading anyone.
note that the statistics are valid for ROE version
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solo
Hired Hero
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posted December 03, 2004 12:36 PM |
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Wait a second Tigris, where did u get the statistics?!?
I am very interested in that kind of stuff, i wanna know which is the most popular town on the zone and so on...could you paste the link please
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Shenjairo
Known Hero
Simsalabim
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posted December 03, 2004 01:30 PM |
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Well, I made a list on my own. Sort of. This isn't what I think every day and for some creatures it's very hard to place them correctly. For example place 4 to 7 in level 2 I wouldn't disagree at all if someone were to rearrange them. Feel free to laugh and point out errors. Yesterday I had wolf raider as third in level 2, but now second as one example. I really don't like the speed on the Dendroid soldiers, but they do work well with their binding ability so for today Zealots gets to be behind them. I think those two are the worst for that level, but not really sure in what order.
I left out Conflux since I said in an earlier post I'm not experienced enough with them to get it right. The storm elemental is the only one I'm really sure of as it's miles ahead of every other level 2. But it gets really hard when trying to place the sprite which has awful stats and it really hits you how a list like this doesn't really work since you have to take growth and cost into consideration and not just 1 vs 1 since in a real game the sprites along with the air elementals is a lethal combo. The behemoths will have caused major destruction before any titan sees the light of day as another example, but if I had an army with six types in it and I magically got to choose to add either 10 titans or 10 ancient behemoths I would choose titans almost every time. And this time wyverns gets to be the worst since this is mostly a one on one comparison, just in a real game the scorpicores suck more since there aren't any scorpicore hives.
Level 1
1. Centaur captain
2. Halberdier
3. Skeleton warrior
4. Gnoll marauder
5. Infernal troglodyte
6. Master gremlin
7. Hobgoblin
8. Familiar
Level 2
1. Marksman
2. Wolf raider
3. Lizard warrior
4. Harpy hag
5. Obsidian gargoyle
6. Magog
7. Battle dwarf
8. Zombie
Level 3
1. Grand elf
2. Royal griffin
3. Evil eye
4. Cerberi
5. Dragonfly
6. Orc cheiftain
7. Iron golem
8. Wraith
Level 4
1. Vampire lord
2. Crusader
3. Archmagi
4. Greater basilisk
5. Medusa queen
6. Ogre magi
7. Silver pegasi
8. Horned demon
Level 5
1. Mighty gorgon
2. Minotaur king
3. Thunderbird
4. Power lich
5. Pit lord
6. Master genie
7. Dendroid Soldier
8. Zealot
Level 6
1. Dread knight
2. Naga queen
3. Champion
4. Efreet sultan
5. War unicorn
6. Cyclops king
7. Scorpicore
8. Wyvern monarch
Level 7
1. Archangel
2. Black dragon
3. Titan
4. Gold dragon
5. Archdevil
6. Ancient behemoth
7. Ghost dragon
8. Chaos hydra
If just adding points together I would get a list like this:
1. Castle 19
2. Dungeon 28
3. Rampart 32
3. Tower 32
3. Necropolis 32
6. Fortress 33
7. Stronghold 36
8. Inferno 40
I may be slightly biased towards Dungeon, and possibly I'm a little too harsh on Inferno but if you were to rank only units this list is about what I think of the castles and someone has to be last. If we were to take heroes and castle build into consideration the list would not look the same, for one Tower would be deep down, about equal with Inferno, and Fortress and Stronghold would climb up. Castle isn't as strong as I rank them at all when counting heroes, since they kinda suck. But if you gave Crag Hack to Castle I don't think any other castle would be able to compete on the same terms.
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tigris
Supreme Hero
Supreme Noobolator
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posted December 03, 2004 01:44 PM |
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Quote:
Wait a second Tigris, where did u get the statistics?!?
i got the creature related statistics from
here and also i have consulted the manual.
As for the favorite castle, go ask players on the zone..I also saw a tournament in ToH a while ago where players had to submit the castle of their choice when registering, but i couldn't find the link. Maybe someone else can help you with that...
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tigris
Supreme Hero
Supreme Noobolator
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posted December 03, 2004 02:01 PM |
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Quote:
Level 2
7. Battle dwarf
8. Zombie
imho you clearly underestimated those two
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Level 4
6. Ogre magi
this can't be right
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Level 5
7. Dendroid Soldier
this can't be right either
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Level 7
6. Ancient behemoth
this one is deffenetly wrong
Quote:
7. Ghost dragon
8. Chaos hydra
those two better change spots imho
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Shenjairo
Known Hero
Simsalabim
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posted December 03, 2004 02:17 PM |
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What can I say, I loathe slow creatures I kinda like the battle dwarves, but think Zombies are horrenduos. No two people will make the same list and this is just what I think really and the medium damage high hp slow moving grunts are what I target last in fights. Dendroids and dwarves are excellent guards for the elves, but this is more a standalone thing. Do point out other errors, will be interesting to see where I'm most wrong.
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csarmi
Supreme Hero
gets back
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posted December 03, 2004 05:39 PM |
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Edited By: csarmi on 3 Dec 2004
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Efreet sultans: Level 6 flyers with a speed of 13. That means they cross the field. You can take on any shooter stack on week 2 day 1. I place level 6 walkers lower on my list, just because they are not so fast. 11 speed flyers can be good too if you have tactics.
Silver Pegasi: well I think they are amongst the best level 4's, just because of their speed. Speed 8 scouts day 3, speed 12 scouts day 8. Cheap, good abilities and can really turn the tide in some early fights.
Pit Lords strength is its damage. They are not a grunt unit - they can't stand being hit! They are fast, hit what they want to and hopefully won't get retaliated. They do an insane damage.
How much demons can I raise after day 15? All! It can be done in 1 turn - just be smart enough to leave some neutral stacks intact on your way.
Cerberi for crappy damage?????????????????
They have the highest damage amongst level 3's and it's even unretaliated!
Here is my list for effectiveness (even cooperation within their town!) in a game. (but I do not include factors like demon farming and necromancy)
Level 1
1. Centaur captain
2. Master gremlin
3. Gnoll marauder
4. Infernal troglodyte
5. Hobgoblin
6. Familiar
. Halberdier
8. Skeleton Warrior
Level 2
1. Marksman
2. Harpy Hag
3. Wolf raider
4. Lizard warrior
5. Obsidian gargoyle
6. Magog
7. Battle dwarf
8. Zombie
Level 3
1. Grand elf
2. Dragon Fly
3. Orc Chieftain
4. Royal griffin
5. Evil eye
6. Cerberi
7. Iron golem
8. Wraith
Level 4
1. Vampire lord
2. Silver Pegasi
3. Crusader
4. Greater Basilisk
5. Archmagi
6. Horned Deamom
7. Medusa queen
. Ogre magi
Level 5
1. Mighty gorgon
2. Minotaur king
3. Pit Lord
4. Thunderbird
5. Power lich
6. Master genie
7. Dendroid Soldier
8. Zealot
Level 6
1. Efreet Sultan
2. War Unicorn
3. Wyvern Monarch
4. Champion
5. Cyclops king
6. Naga Queen
7. Dread Knight
8. Scorpicore
(note: especially at level 4-5-6 the comparisons are not too valid, creatures should be rated by role, not by level! - scorpicores and wyvern monarchs are to be compared with thunderbirds, for example)
Level 7
1. Arch Devil
2. Ancient Behemoth
3. Black dragon
4. Archangel
5. Chaos Hydra
6. Titan
. Gold Dragon
8. Ghost Dragon
(note: in fight vs each others 1.AA; 2.AD; 3-6.Dragons, Titan, AB; 7-8. Ghost/Hydra)
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solo
Hired Hero
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posted December 03, 2004 06:19 PM |
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LOL!
Orc chieftains are better than eveil eyes, ogre magi is 8th? HB is 7th?and so on... this is the most weirdest, and not rational ratings i have ever seen
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Nebuka
Promising
Supreme Hero
Save me Jebus!
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posted December 03, 2004 06:21 PM |
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AB kills all but titans...really low on that list of yours.
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Shenjairo
Known Hero
Simsalabim
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posted December 03, 2004 06:25 PM |
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Just a small note that our lists can't be compared because we looked at slightly different things. An actual in game list is better really. One example on this other list is orc chieftans who score higher than the evil eyes who is better or equal in every stat, but that's because the orcs only cost 59% of what an evil eye do. In an actual game I still don't think I would rate cyclops kings higher than the dread knights though, it's very rare you have time to build the cyclops first week and their population falls behind.
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csarmi
Supreme Hero
gets back
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posted December 03, 2004 06:35 PM |
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Edited By: csarmi on 3 Dec 2004
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Quote:
LOL!
Orc chieftains are better than eveil eyes, ogre magi is 8th? HB is 7th?and so on... this is the most weirdest, and not rational ratings i have ever seen
Well, it's very rational. I'll include some comments later, looks like you do not see the "why"s.
Nebuka: in 10vs10 fights, no stats and no splitting included:
AA beats everything - AB only in a close fight
AD loses to AA; defeats anything else - BD's in a close fight
AB loses to AD and Titan close loss against AA, close victory against the dragons; clear win against others
(shall I continue the list - I have the whole championship recorded somewhere )
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Rage08
Famous Hero
Making it in the real world
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posted December 03, 2004 07:37 PM |
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Depending on how you play... I'd say both your lists are fine. It's interesting to see how players vary in opinion...
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted December 03, 2004 07:40 PM |
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I´m not really sure those rankings make any sense. Too much things u have to put in your calculation to get a decent ranking. The costs....the growth....moral yes/no....specialities....and so on....
There does already exist a thread about rankings...with very cool results....look it up here
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Shenjairo
Known Hero
Simsalabim
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posted December 04, 2004 03:18 AM |
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I blame solo, he started it! (shush, what do you mean nothing would have happened if I hadn't dissed Inferno? /em whistles innocently)
Yeah there's nothing mathematical about mine, and it's not really rock solid, just what I feel about the units in a general situation in about equal numbers and I can certainly change the order slightly. In some cases I do prefer my order though, there's no way I would put master genies above minotaur kings like some of the lists there did because they favored flying too much. And iron golems over grand elves? Eep.
Edit: There won't ever be a list that everyone will agree with no matter what is counted since people think differently on what's important. I've been an everquest junkie for some years (most addictive game ever, retired a bit ago) and there was some guy that made a database of all the important items in the game along with a calculator where you could add your own values on different stats and abilities. I spent a lot of time trying out different values to find what I really thought about some items. It took a while before some items I knew were worse were put below the better items and in the end there were only a few surprises about some items that I hadn't thought about and I knew where the best item upgrades would be.
But back to heroes, if I had made the calculations here on a big list I would have redone it if iron golems were put above grand elves because they really don't belong in that position. So let's say I get the numbers right and get rid of the inconsistencies I have in my list, it still wouldn't be widely accepted because while speed (example, could put hp here) is important some think it is more important than others so they won't agree with it. It's better to just play and see what works.
If really trying to make an accurate list it will almost always fail on some special abilities since you will have to add a value you think is right, and the value will very probably be something that makes the unit fit in well according to some other units and then you will have left mathemathics for personal judgement which defeats the purpose for making the list in the first place. <--Longest run-on sentence ever?
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tigris
Supreme Hero
Supreme Noobolator
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posted December 04, 2004 09:11 AM |
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Quote:
Cerberi for crappy damage?????????????????
They have the highest damage amongst level 3's and it's even unretaliated!
in fact cerberi have a 2-7 damage, wich unaffected by any spells is crappy(imho).Just because it can deliver 7 damage it doesn't mean that it has the highest damage amongst level 3 units, as it's average damage is 4,5.Compare this with a grand elf's 2*(3 to 5).
And if i think twice, the water elementals have 3-7 damage so that will put them in the top spot
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