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| Thread: How far do changes stretch? | |
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Daystar
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Back from the Dead
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posted April 04, 2008 01:30 AM |
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Edited by Daystar at 04:01, 04 Apr 2008.
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How far do changes stretch?
Lately (in ICTC and in the Altar) I've seen a lot of proposals trying to change various core aspects of Heroes. So, my question is, what are things that can be changed, what can be removed, what can be deleted, what is going too far in additions?
For instace: 7 levels, an aspect unchanged since HIII. (Well, except uberneutrals but forget them) Are we allowed to change this, and if so, to what extent?
EDIT: I'm not including "Heroes" IV. It does not count.
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How exactly is luck a skill?
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sith_of_ziost
Promising
Supreme Hero
Scouting the Multiverse
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posted April 04, 2008 01:54 AM |
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As i see it, there are several things that cannot be taken out in a genuine Heroes game. One thing is the theme of the factions. They tried messing around with it in Heroes IV, and they apparently did not see it as a great improvement. So, the traditional factions resumed their existence. Such factions, like the Elves (in all their names) and the Necropolis, cannot be changed into another aspect for they have developed a distinct flavor in the Heroes world. Others, such as the Inferno, have a rather fluid and abstract structure, able to change with the situation. There have been an adequate number of Heroes games to pull together the terrific aspects of all the faction to create the ultimate experience.
As for gameplay, many revolutions have been thought of, induced, and, sadly, withdrawn. Such innovations should have brought a new flavor to the game, and most did. As such, these revolutions should spin into one coherent, amazing sequel to the Heroes game.
As to the level of how far change can actually go, it should not go so far as to totally discard what has been done in the past. It should sping the greatest elements of all the Heroes series and make Heroes VI the paragon of Might and Magic.
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Snatch
Promising
Known Hero
Proud Kappa
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posted April 04, 2008 03:14 AM |
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Edited by Snatch at 03:15, 04 Apr 2008.
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Quote:
For instace: 7 levels, an aspect unchanged since HIII. (Well, except uberneutrals but forget them) Are we allowed to change this, and if so, to what extent?
That's false. It was changed in H4 and then reintroduced in H5. Changes and innovations are important. We don't want the same game again and again just with better graphics. But to what extent is a good question. Actually we are allowed to change almost everything (except of the basics, we don't want real-time strategy or real-time battles, we want ressources, towns, heroes, creature stacks, exploring and chess-like fighting) IF we can manage that the feeling is still somewhat familiar. We can't generalize how far we can go. We have to look at each idea and change alone and how well it fits into the concept. And there will be no way to make all people happy. Some will always complain.
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Such factions, like the Elves (in all their names) and the Necropolis, cannot be changed into another aspect for they have developed a distinct flavor in the Heroes world. Others, such as the Inferno, have a rather fluid and abstract structure, able to change with the situation.
Everything can be changed. How will you know whether a new flavor won't taste as good or even better? And why do you mention of all things Inferno as an example of fluidness? A town which didn't really change at all. But I agree in one point. Heroes consists of different themes and athmospheres which should be maintained. I think that this is more important than a particular race. What's the point against a nature faction focussing on satyrs, gnomes or animals and using the elves elsewhere? Leaving history, storyline and current universes out.
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As for gameplay, many revolutions have been thought of, induced, and, sadly, withdrawn. Such innovations should have brought a new flavor to the game, and most did. As such, these revolutions should spin into one coherent, amazing sequel to the Heroes game.
Can you name a few, please?
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It should sping the greatest elements of all the Heroes series and make Heroes VI the paragon of Might and Magic.
Just the best of all known Heroes games or some great new ideas too? If there are any.
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Orfinn
Supreme Hero
Werewolf Duke
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posted April 07, 2008 09:19 PM |
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Edited by Orfinn at 21:20, 07 Apr 2008.
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To be completely crazy and radical. Elves could swap roles with humans, having elven trashcans and elven divine goddesses with pristine unicorns and longsword elves at disposal. while putting the humans in the forest, making them dark brown in skin color and focusing on mastering dark martial arts and having forest dragons and spooklights to aid them.
NOW is it that hard to be creative, innoative?? I mean the classic "goody" human trashcan knights, dark elves in the depths, picking dark solutions, evil demons frying babies and undead swamplovers filled with dirt and oozy green swamp gas and SO ON is getting really old now IMVeryHO.
You get my point...
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LucJPatenaude
Disgraceful
Known Hero
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posted April 13, 2008 08:55 AM |
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HoMM is proven to be the greatest strategy game to survive the TBS test of time.
Since, Civilization games are at their end of their continuity's rope, let make a HoMM6 that fills this humongous gap.
Why not, include the main factors that made Civilization so great of a Strategy game for a whopping 2 decades long(20 years)? Civilization has based its approach onto land/territory possession and dominance over the other enemy factions and, not restraining itself to mere imperial cities and military control of the surrounding ressources. The people is way more important than that of the power of one's military.
It is not up to the military leaders to judge how their units will look, act, behave like but, of the people's main characteristics and way of life alike. The more the people judge it is time to grow and prosper, the more it is likely for advances to appear in their minds.
Wouldn't you like to see the possibility that a human farm would be founded in the heart of the Necropolis, Dwarven or, Light Elven Lands and Forests. So, that your main goal for your military is to secure the new and newest of settlements such as these. In the next turns, you can get to it for making a true village out of it and, a town into the next week or so. No colonists gathered up and sent there, only done by purity of will of your own faction's people. Creating a real sense of a campaign for your military other than just go and conquer the enemy because they were found and, though, must be destroyed while conquering their own realm. Annihilation and genocide of a player's faction should always be an option. Learning not do so, is the key learning point of why conquest is fruitful during a very large map's overall dominination and, total victory. The larger your empire grows, the more likely, later on in the game, you will see village popping out of nowhere made of all the factions characteristics in one single urban site.
I think that would be the greatest advancement for the HoMM franchise ever. A Hero called General later in the game. The other Heroes auto. ranked Colonel with the possibility of promotion to General as the empire grows further.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted April 13, 2008 09:09 AM |
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Quote:
Since, Civilization games are at their end of their continuity's rope, let make a HoMM6 that fills this humongous gap.
Eh, as far as I remember, the last expansion of Civilization, Civilization 4 - Beyond The Sword, was released only last year - bringing the game fully up to date as being still the best tb strategy game around imho. Thus, I find it highly unlikely, that the Civilization developers will allow their game to be included as a sub-part of Heroes.
Apart from that, I also find the two games completely incompatible, but that's just my personal oppinion.
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What will happen now?
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Daystar
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Back from the Dead
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posted April 13, 2008 04:07 PM |
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I like the concept of turnning farms into villages, that would be cool.
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How exactly is luck a skill?
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mamgaeater
Legendary Hero
Shroud, Flying, Trample, Haste
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posted April 13, 2008 04:16 PM |
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well for a game to be sucessful it has to constantly change.
if homm 5 was just a graphically improved homm 3 well whats the point. companies have to introduce new concepts and keep changing.
eventually people might just get bored with the current style.
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Protection From Everything.
dota
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malgore
Adventuring Hero
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posted April 13, 2008 07:48 PM |
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if homm 5 was just a graphically improved homm 3 well whats the point.
Actually Heroes V not only included most of good and classic things from previous installments - it managed also to re-vamp the title and introduce some new things like ATB system.
The game also became more readable and balanced imho compared to previous ones.
As for the changes that will improve existing concept, I guess in future we will see:
1) More unit combos along with further unit specification;
2) Increase of interactivity - destroyable cities (pillaging), upgradeable dwellings and resource sites;
3) More hero variations/classes with special class skills;
4) More magic - at least 6 types of it...
The changes that can in some way extensively (or dramatically ) change existing concept:
1) Stack view dependable on size of units - takes more space and perhaps requires special formation;
2) Sub-hero class (Adviser?) that will scout, deliver, agitate (do diplomatic things) and even assassinate (!);
3) Units gaining experience - their spec abilities work more frequently, their accuracy/skills increase;
4) Battling heroes like in Heroes VI - this time much harder to kill but without resurrection ability...
The changes that will be excessive/unnecessary to existing concept:
1) More then 7 unit types;
2) Countless upgrades for units, more then two alternatives;
3) Overloaded and complicated magic system with tonns of spells and mastery levels...
These are things that deal with gameplay only. 
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Aculias
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Pretty Boy Angel Sacraficer
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posted April 13, 2008 08:31 PM |
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I am sure it can stretch really far 
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Dreaming of a Better World
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mamgaeater
Legendary Hero
Shroud, Flying, Trample, Haste
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posted April 13, 2008 08:51 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
if homm 5 was just a graphically improved homm 3 well whats the point.
Actually Heroes V not only included most of good and classic things from previous installments - it managed also to re-vamp the title and introduce some new things like ATB system.
The game also became more readable and balanced imho compared to previous ones.
As for the changes that will improve existing concept, I guess in future we will see:
1) More unit combos along with further unit specification;
2) Increase of interactivity - destroyable cities (pillaging), upgradeable dwellings and resource sites;
3) More hero variations/classes with special class skills;
4) More magic - at least 6 types of it...
The changes that can in some way extensively (or dramatically ) change existing concept:
1) Stack view dependable on size of units - takes more space and perhaps requires special formation;
2) Sub-hero class (Adviser?) that will scout, deliver, agitate (do diplomatic things) and even assassinate (!);
3) Units gaining experience - their spec abilities work more frequently, their accuracy/skills increase;
4) Battling heroes like in Heroes VI - this time much harder to kill but without resurrection ability...
The changes that will be excessive/unnecessary to existing concept:
1) More then 7 unit types;
2) Countless upgrades for units, more then two alternatives;
3) Overloaded and complicated magic system with tonns of spells and mastery levels...
These are things that deal with gameplay only.
please read the part i bolded
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Protection From Everything.
dota
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Malgore
Adventuring Hero
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posted April 14, 2008 07:29 AM |
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Quote:
please read the part i bolded
I see your point. Actually I nether denied it nor confirmed it in first two sentences that were related to your post. 
As for improvements - it is obvious that the title depends strongly on its core ideas. Changing radically the main concept will do no good for it. The best way here is to implement new things step by step.
As for minor "improvements" that could be seen in further Heroes games, I guess these also may include some weather effects, destructible battlefield environment (effects of magic, shooting and etc.) and other spectaculars...
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