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| Thread: Democracy - Stairway to Heaven or Highway to Hell? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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JoonasTo
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Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted April 19, 2008 09:14 PM |
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Darkshadow: Yes, but the queen doesn't actually do anything. Her duties are purely ceremonial.
Seraphim: Social democracy is still a form of democracy. And I don't think that it's the best one.
Actually doesn't the queen still have the power to declare a war? She would never use it but I think she still has it.
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Darkshadow
Legendary Hero
Cerise Princess
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posted April 19, 2008 10:02 PM |
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I think the goverment needs confirmation from queen if going to war.
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mvassilev
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Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 19, 2008 10:17 PM |
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If the government wants to declare war, the queen won't say no.
JonasTo, I disagree completely. The free market is far better than socialism.
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Eccentric Opinion
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Darkshadow
Legendary Hero
Cerise Princess
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posted April 19, 2008 10:19 PM |
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Please give me reason.Free market will make countries dependant.
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mvassilev
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Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 19, 2008 10:21 PM |
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Darkshadow
Legendary Hero
Cerise Princess
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posted April 19, 2008 10:24 PM |
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The corporation that has monopoly over.
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mvassilev
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Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 19, 2008 10:25 PM |
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Well, the government has to step in and break up monopolies. And it should protect the environment (in a reasonable way). And it should print money. But it should let capitalism flourish otherwise. Socialism takes money from those who work and contribute to society and gives it to those who don't.
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Eccentric Opinion
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Darkshadow
Legendary Hero
Cerise Princess
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posted April 19, 2008 10:28 PM |
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Well some countries don't have that power,they are already slaved by corporations because of free market.otherwise you are right.
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mvassilev
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Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 19, 2008 10:29 PM |
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What countries are enslaved by corporations? Developing ones? The biggest problem with sweatshops is that there aren't enough of them.
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Eccentric Opinion
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baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
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posted April 19, 2008 11:41 PM |
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Baklava's idea of giving the votes only to the educated, and thus rich, citizen is the last thing you'll wanna do in a democracy. Shees do you think they would be all good and thoughtful? It would become an aristocracy where are poor and "lesser" people would suffer but the aristocracy would thrive. That's pretty far from democracy if you ask me.
You didn't read carefully. My idea is making education available to everyone, and disabling the rich people to influence the masses.
Educated people are not always rich. At least not here. But it's important that a person who knows something about politics has a more powerful vote than, for example, a farmer whom a politician told he'll buy him a new cow if he votes for him (in Montenegro, politicians actually went around villages giving people shoes in exchange for votes. Shoes. And it's not too different anywhere, it's just that instead of shoes people get false promises and hope...).
No offense to the farmers of course, don't get me wrong. They have their role in the society, and we wouldn't be here without them; I respect them fully. But imagine that we try to work the fields with our city cars. The fields and the idea of crops would be ruined.
Besides, I am not against farmers voting. With a basic level of quality education, everyone can vote. But it's important that you learn to look behind empty promises when you vote.
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Only applies to asia and middle east
1) Middle east is a part of Asia...
2) It also quite applies to South (and Middle) America, Africa and some parts of Europe.
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Well, the government has to step in and break up monopolies. And it should protect the environment (in a reasonable way). And it should print money. But it should let capitalism flourish otherwise. Socialism takes money from those who work and contribute to society and gives it to those who don't.
Actually, in capitalism, you have a worker that does everything, and some guy in a suit that sits in his office all day who takes the most and just gives a meaningless part of money to the worker. Capitalism is actually feudalism of the modern world.
A middle solution would be the best. Something between capitalism and socialism, both but neither. A mixture of free market and class equality.
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Well some countries don't have that power,they are already slaved by corporations because of free market.otherwise you are right.
Countries aren't so much enslaved by the corporations. It's just that governments (or, it's better to say, people who work for the governments) draw huge profits from all that, so they let them be, and all that money grants the corporations certain benefits.
Kings drew a profit from their vassals, and so they granted them benefits like a greater social status and held them in greater esteem. Like I said, capitalism always strongly reminded me of a sort of neofeudalism 
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"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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mvassilev
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Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 20, 2008 02:55 AM |
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you have a worker that does everything
A worker can't do much without the capital provided by the capitalist. And the fact is that the worker's labor isn't worth that much. Why? Because the worker is one out of many, there are only a few people with capital. You can find another worker; it is considerably more difficult to find a good CEO. The workers aren't cheated out of their fair share of the profits from their labors (that is a Communist idea); if they were, the free market would quickly remedy that (because businesses would compete for workers, offering them higher wages until some sort of balance would be reached). The reason why workers live better now than ever before is because they are more productive than ever.
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Eccentric Opinion
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baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
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posted April 20, 2008 11:50 AM |
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A worker can't do much without the capital provided by the capitalist.
Perhaps. But the capitalist can't do anything without work provided by the workers.
Be that as it may, capitalism can function, I never said it can't. But feudalism functioned too. People weren't complaining either.
My point is that capitalism has evolved greatly since it first appeared, but it's misused as hell. Quite similar to the Church. It first appeared when there were huge depressions over Europe and everything, then it gradually evolved, battled the infidels from the East (communism  ), organized witch-hunts (again, against communists), crusades (Vietnam, Iraq etcetera), and is constantly meddling in political affairs. It's just that God was replaced by a pantheon of green gods, known simply as Money.
That said, capitalism still is, much like democracy, probably the best of the economic systems available at the moment, but it needs to evolve further and intertwine with socialism a bit more. Class differences are too large as of now, corruption is raging, and all over the workers' back. I know I sound like a commie, but seriously, it's true. Especially in countries in "transition"; that is, countries crossing from quazi-socialism to capitalism, such as mine.
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"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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JoonasTo
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted April 20, 2008 12:15 PM |
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Quote:
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Baklava's idea of giving the votes only to the educated, and thus rich, citizen is the last thing you'll wanna do in a democracy. Shees do you think they would be all good and thoughtful? It would become an aristocracy where are poor and "lesser" people would suffer but the aristocracy would thrive. That's pretty far from democracy if you ask me.
You didn't read carefully. My idea is making education available to everyone, and disabling the rich people to influence the masses.
Educated people are not always rich. At least not here. But it's important that a person who knows something about politics has a more powerful vote than, for example, a farmer whom a politician told he'll buy him a new cow if he votes for him (in Montenegro, politicians actually went around villages giving people shoes in exchange for votes. Shoes. And it's not too different anywhere, it's just that instead of shoes people get false promises and hope...).
No offense to the farmers of course, don't get me wrong. They have their role in the society, and we wouldn't be here without them; I respect them fully. But imagine that we try to work the fields with our city cars. The fields and the idea of crops would be ruined.
Besides, I am not against farmers voting. With a basic level of quality education, everyone can vote. But it's important that you learn to look behind empty promises when you vote.
Yes I did read it but usually higher education means better job thus more money and money makes rich people.
Here in Finland (and in any remotely modern nation) education is already available to everyone so I kinda take that as a self-evident thing.
I have to agree about the political education in schools. There are far too many politicians who ride on empty promises and get away with it. Not to mention celebrities.
BTW. Have you noticed that the first thing every goverment does after election is the raising of their own pay?
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mvassilev
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posted April 20, 2008 02:47 PM |
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But the capitalist can't do anything without work provided by the workers.
True. But someone who has capital can find workers more easily than vice versa.
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But feudalism functioned too.
The most important difference between capitalism on one hand and feudalism and slavery on the other, is that in capitalism, people get to choose where they work. And this is a very critical and important difference.
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Quite similar to the Church.
Except that money provides concrete benefits to all that have it.
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infidels from the East (communism )
Firstly, communism has never been achieved. What was around in the Eastern Bloc is state capitalism, where the state had a monopoly on everything. And capitalism didn't fight communism. It's just that the national interests of the US and the USSR were in conflict. (Of course, if the USSR would have been noninterventionist, the US would have tried to open it to trade, but it wouldn't have caused the conflict that the Cold War did.)
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organized witch-hunts (again, against communists)
Can't blame that on capitalism. Blame it on politicians looking for power.
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crusades (Vietnam, Iraq etcetera)
This is actually the doings of the military-industrial complex, and the government's treatment of it is corporatist, not capitalist.
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It's just that God was replaced by a pantheon of green gods, known simply as Money.
Except that you can go to the store and get something for your money.
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Class differences are too large as of now
Class differences come from the labor of some being worth more than the labor of others. A janitor should never get paid as much as a teacher, a teacher should never get paid as much as a doctor, and a doctor should never get paid as much as Bill Gates. But, as time passes and the world becomes more productive, the janitor, teacher, doctor, and Bill Gates all get richer and better off. Everyone is living far better than they were 200 years ago.
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corruption is raging
In some countries, yes. But corruption depends more on how developed a country is, rather than on what economic system it has.
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Especially in countries in "transition"; that is, countries crossing from quazi-socialism to capitalism, such as mine.
That's because of privatization scandals and corruption, not capitalism. There was just as much corruption, if not more, under Communism.
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Have you noticed that the first thing every goverment does after election is the raising of their own pay?
They can't do that in the US.
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Eccentric Opinion
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Darkshadow
Legendary Hero
Cerise Princess
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posted April 20, 2008 03:00 PM |
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Especially in countries in "transition"; that is, countries crossing from quazi-socialism to capitalism, such as mine.
That's because of privatization scandals and corruption, not capitalism. There was just as much corruption, if not more, under Communism.
Much Much more corruption under communism.
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Have you noticed that the first thing every goverment does after election is the raising of their own pay?
They can't do that in the US.
But elsewhere.
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SirDunco
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted April 20, 2008 03:26 PM |
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Wow, I love how political discussions here always take a turn to
Mvass vs. well anybody else.
Still these disscusions are quite intriguing, so let me get on to this.
You guys somewhere got from the discussion about Democracy, liberal democracy to be exact. Liberal democracy has it's many flaws and mistakes. But again it's main strong point is defending the rights of the minority, which is the biggest requisition for a democracy to function. Still I personally favor direct democracy, which actually and really gives power to the people and not to an elitist class of incompetent wankers (aka politicians).
As for the all popular theme of capitalims vs. "the left"
The capitalist is not really needed as the capital and means of production can be managed and gained, mutually. Worker-self management can easily replace the corporate class of CEO and different leeches. There are many working examples of self-management all around the world.
Capitalism is an oppressive system, but it does not express it's self in such a way as the bolshevik system did. Still capitalism is manipulative and destructive and even capitalism as such does not, in any way, guarentee a "free market".
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JoonasTo
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted April 20, 2008 05:16 PM |
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Goverment was a wrong word. It was supposed to be the parliament.
But if they don't have the right in the USA then who has? 
They aren't being paid by 19th century terms are they.
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mvassilev
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posted April 20, 2008 06:06 PM |
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Mvass vs. well anybody else.
My views are mainstream in America, but, apparently, not in HC.
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Still I personally favor direct democracy, which actually and really gives power to the people and not to an elitist class of incompetent wankers (aka politicians).
Self-interested elite vs. uninformed lazy masses. Which is worse?
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Worker-self management can easily replace the corporate class of CEO and different leeches.
As the insane cannot run an asylum, so can the workers not run a business. (Except in cases of small businesses.) CEOs are not leeches. Often they make companies far more successful.
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There are many working examples of self-management all around the world.
Such as?
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Capitalism is an oppressive system
Whom does it oppress? Just because people get paid according to what their labor is worth, does not mean that it's oppressive.
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capitalism is manipulative and destructive
Manipulative? As for destructive, that is a very broad term. The government has to punish businesses that hurt the environment. But there is such a thing as "creative destruction", which is good.
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capitalism as such does not, in any way, guarentee a "free market".
Only thing I agree with you about. Sometimes unfettered capitalism leads to monopolies, which themselves stifle the free market.
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But if they don't have the right in the USA then who has?
Congress does have the power to give itself a pay raise. But it can only take effect after the next election.
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Eccentric Opinion
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JoonasTo
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted April 20, 2008 06:44 PM |
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But if they don't have the right in the USA then who has?
Congress does have the power to give itself a pay raise. But it can only take effect after the next election.
Tha's actually a good idea except that most MPs are gonna be there after the next election too but the idea itself is good. Maybe that could be implemented in here aswell.
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2ndHero
Famous Hero
Floppy Slayer
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posted April 20, 2008 06:54 PM |
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Edited by 2ndHero at 18:55, 20 Apr 2008.
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I think you can't reach full democracy, but I think it's the best solution we have. But no laws and the strongest survives could work too.
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Help and suggestions needed here.
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