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| Thread: A new method for heroes to die in battle |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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Darkavatar
Adventuring Hero
Overlord Divine
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posted May 28, 2008 10:19 AM |
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A new method for heroes to die in battle
I have a wish for HoMM6.That is a new method for heroes to die in battle. It is not like in HoMM4 where heroes can die like a creature. The new method is different.
In the beginig of a battle, there is a barrier around the hero, where the hero is unvunreble to all attacks, but the hero can preform his own attacks and magics on others. When all the heroes creatures dies, the barrier fades and he is vunreble to attacks.
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What is it exactly we have created. It is "New World Order".
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Daystar
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Back from the Dead
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posted May 28, 2008 01:14 PM |
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I dunno. It seems to be too far away from the natural order of Heroes.
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How exactly is luck a skill?
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Warmonger
Promising
Legendary Hero
fallen artist
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posted May 28, 2008 01:35 PM |
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I don't think it has any sense for strategy or playability purpose.
It won't alter the game from what it is right now, but maybe make the battle longer and more predicatble? 
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Moonlith
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
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posted May 28, 2008 02:28 PM |
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I had been thinking about this little idea as well, although I haven't given it much further thought. Basicly, as long as the hero has creatures, the hero stands next to the battlefield, capable of adding in attacks and casting spells. However, the moment he has no creatures or no creatures left during the fight, the hero appears in its starting area and is forced to fight along in the battle.
Only by killing the enemy's hero, you can win the fight.
However, I'm not sure if I'm fully okay with this idea. There's basicly only three options:
- As described above, the hero enters the battlefield the moment he has 0 creatures in his army.
- H1, 2, 3, and 5 style, hero is always out of the battle.
- H4 style, Hero is always in the battle.
Personally, I feel option number 3 is out of the question, it's bad, it causes a 'creaturestack''s powergrowth to be non-linear. Overpowered in early game, less usefull in late game.
Unfortunately, it IS the most realistic option.
H5 is pretty nice, the only problem being the bit of surrealism. But I wonder if adding the hero to the battlefield after his troops are gone will change that.
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GenieLord
Honorable
Legendary Hero
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posted May 28, 2008 08:29 PM |
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What about...
The hero stands like it is in H5, outside of the battefield, but from two tiles (the closest to the hero) s/he can be attacked. So those two tiles will probabaly be blocked by shooters/casters, so it will be hard for the enemy to hit the hero. When all the creatures die, it's sure that you'll get access to those tiles, and you'll be able to kill the hero.
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Adrius
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Stand and fight!
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posted May 28, 2008 08:50 PM |
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If the only way to win was to kill the hero, all attacks would be focused on him/her. If we go with Gl's idea, the hero would still be subjected to hero/creature spells and ranged attacks.
If the hero enters the battle after all the creatures have been killed, it would result in quite terrible rushing tactics. "I rush with one gargoyle, oops you killed it! But here comes the hero!" Who (probably) has a large amount of Hp and can continue to cast spells on the opponents army.
Now, what I think would be better is if you could win by either killing the hero or killing all his creatures, thus forcing him to surrender. This would yield new tactics, as in: "My opponent has a strong army, so I go for their leader", or "my opponent's army is weak, so I go for the creatures". This would be even funnier if the hero had skills that increase his/her own protection against attacks, meaning that you would have to choose between buffing your creatures or buffing your hero (In both might and magic, meaning that you could cast defensive spells on your hero, or buff him/her with might skills, and not just your creatures)
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zamrai
Adventuring Hero
Moonlight Melody
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posted May 28, 2008 08:58 PM |
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I don't like the idea of fighting hero.
Instead of planning strategy for army we think how to keep him alife.
Hero out of battlefield like in h2,3,5 is good solution.
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emilsn
Legendary Hero
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posted May 28, 2008 10:52 PM |
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If you want a hero like you suggest I think it should be like this: Barrier = A certain amount Hp
Can be crushe forcing the hero into the open
No creatures need to be killed.
H4 style, hero die Creatures survie or Hero dies all dies. (which would suck either way in my eyes)
my idea.
You got your 7 stacks of creatures, when you have 1 or 2 stacks left, the hero enters.
Both of these have the hero attacking and casting spells on the sideline to he enters the battle
But IMO hero on battlefield sucks.
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Don't walk behind me; I may not
lead. Don't walk in front of me;
I may not follow. Just walk
beside me and be my friend.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted May 28, 2008 11:39 PM |
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What if we were to rework the H4 system of heroes in combat (remove the Combat skill set) along the lines of heroes having set Hp, damage and speed (like every other creature) but slowly ramping up their attack and defence like normal. Also, because the hero would be working from a disadvantage in attack and defence stats, artifacts would only affect the hero (unless otherwise stated).
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Daystar
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Back from the Dead
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posted May 29, 2008 03:54 AM |
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I think that it should be impossible to attack the creature except for 1 campaign artifact that lets you do that, 1 creature and upgrades that attacks, and 1 spell/perk for 1 faction. Attacking pushes them back on the initiative bar and they loose mana.
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How exactly is luck a skill?
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sith_of_ziost
Promising
Supreme Hero
Scouting the Multiverse
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posted May 29, 2008 04:20 AM |
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I have one thing to say...Why would you want you're hero to "die"? In H5, they retreat and leave you permanently, if not hired back at a random chance from the Tavern. However, this idea of death can be incorporated if made to be fluent and not straightforward. I like it the way it is personally.
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imp
Hired Hero
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posted May 29, 2008 04:39 AM |
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i think it should be how it is in h5 with one exception. if you want to you can make the hero enter the battlefield. there he would be vulnerable to damagae and could die. the advantages could be that his attack does more damage and that he would boost the stats of other creatures more than when he is on the sideline. this feature would be effective in early game when armies are kind of weak. in late game most people would propably leave there hero on the sideline to cast spells and attack for mininum damage(the h5 way).
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted May 29, 2008 08:50 AM |
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Edited by MattII at 08:53, 29 May 2008.
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Never having played H5, I'm wondering, what the deal with heroes in combat? I mean, I know it's not like H4, but not like H3 either, so what's going on?
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted May 29, 2008 08:54 AM |
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Quote:
What if we were to rework the H4 system of heroes in combat (remove the Combat skill set) along the lines of heroes having set Hp, damage and speed (like every other creature) but slowly ramping up their attack and defence like normal. Also, because the hero would be working from a disadvantage in attack and defence stats, artifacts would only affect the hero (unless otherwise stated).
While I think the Heroes 5 system works fairly well in practice, I must admit that the idea of having the Hero on the battlefield appeals to me, simply because of the realism.
I agree with the above post that the way of doing it would probably be something along the line of scaling with levels. The Heroes 4 approach obviously didn't work, because it resulted in two possible scenarios: a) Hero without Combat skill = wimp. b) Hero with Combat skill = powerhouse. The latter required some 20 levels skill investment to reach full potential, making that game approach rather one-sided. 3D0 obviously realized this problem and introduced the potion of invulnerability, effectively bringing us back to something similar to Heroes 5 model (although you would be forced to use a turn drinking a new potion by taking him out).
The problem obviously will be to find the right "growth rate" of hero properties (health, damage, etc.). We need something which is not overpowered early game, and something which is not underpowered late game. This is tricky, but not necesarily impossible. Army size will, to a certain extent, be a function of time, and in "normal" games, Hero XP and army size - or rather, army damage potential, herein including damage caused by spells - will grow approximately proportional to time. Yes, some maps are rich, giving high growth rates, and some maps are poor, giving low growth rates, but this will be reflected in both army size and XP growth - hence, it should be possible to tweak numbers to have reasonable numbers.
The other question is, why would we want this? Someone above stated that it would add nothing to the game, but in this, I disagree. Consider for instance the example of a Rune Mage with a stack of Magma Dragons. Magma Dragons are notoriously difficult to bring down, which will mean he has plenty of time Armageddon everything into oblivion. In this case, I think it would be only fair that an enemy army of reasonable size could attack the Runemage directly and bring him down before taking care of the Dragons. Similarly, a Warlock with a stack of Hydras can be a one-man army walking around the map collecting treasures and XP while the rest of his army is safely growing at home in his castle.
On the other hand, having the Hero participate in the battle directly might also give the Might heroes a little more edge than they have currently - also opening the possibility of an imo. overdue tweaking of the War Machines skill, currently the life-saver of all Might classes in creaping.
Quote:
Never having played H5, I'm wondering, what the deal with heroes in combat? I mean, I know it's not like H4, but not like H3 either, so what's going on?
In Heroes 5, the Hero can directly attack creatures, doing damage depending on his level and the target level (for instance, a level 21 hero will kill something like 1 level 7 creature, 2 level 6 creatures, 5 level 3 creatures or 9 level 1 creatures). There is no way of preventing this attack from happen (obstacles, distance). The attack is obviously top-level heavy, dealing more damage to high level creatures (1 level 7 creature ~ 200 HP, whereas 10 level 1 creatures ~ 60 HP).
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What will happen now?
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emilsn
Legendary Hero
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posted May 29, 2008 09:52 AM |
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What if, a bit like imp said, the hero boost his army on the battle field? Like fx Bloodrage ability from H5?
or
You have lets: cleric and Knight, the knight gets Aura of bravery at lvl 5 as a special ability, at lvl 10 gets another ability
the cleric got the same thing, perhaps getting bonus to his magics or some sort of that? So your heroes become like creatures but with hero stats and spells?
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Don't walk behind me; I may not
lead. Don't walk in front of me;
I may not follow. Just walk
beside me and be my friend.
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Warmonger
Promising
Legendary Hero
fallen artist
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posted May 29, 2008 10:11 AM |
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I still opt for H4 battle style. This option appears to have many advantages:
-You cna eliminate opponent's general in case his tactics/ skills are too high, as well as get rid of warlock who does way too much damage with his spells.
-This might also work against you, so the mere fact that you have superior jero doesn't ensure you will be able to take huge armies as he may die if you don't take care of him.
-This adds another tacticla issue to the battle.
-Finally, if you really want, you can came up with total tank who cuts through high-level creatures easily as just another stack, not some funny guy shooting only when his mana runs out.
In H4 development of the hero was deeper in basics, just the skill three and avaliable opttions were simplified
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted May 29, 2008 10:57 AM |
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The downside of the Heroes 4 approach was that, once the enemy hero was down (or your own), the army lost all benefits granted by the Hero, leaving his army totally worthless. Thus, with a high-level caster, it simply became a matter of who acted first, and then imploding/disintegrating/finger-of-death'ing the opponent hero. Unless of course he had Magic Resistance, which brings us back to that Combat Skill. 
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What will happen now?
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Moonlith
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
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posted May 29, 2008 12:43 PM |
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Now that we are talking about hero power, I feel this adresses another issue.
Imagine this scenario... 1 vs 1 , both having a hero of level 30. They meet, one wins, the other hero is gone. This basicly spells instant doom, since even if you manage to recreate an equal sized army, a new level 5 hero will not be able to bring its troops up to the standards of the enemy level 30 hero. My question is: Is this fair?
Especially in H5, I've began to feel the impact hero statistics (attack and defense) have on its army are quite extreme and decisive.
Personally, even though the game is called HEROES of might and magic, I would rather see at least a bit more depend on the creatures instead of the hero.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted May 29, 2008 03:20 PM |
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That's actually a very good point.
And I agree, Hero parameters have too much influence on creatures in combat. With a high-level Hero, you can play practically lossless even against superior armies with only a low-level Hero.
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What will happen now?
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radar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Castle/Haven player
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posted May 29, 2008 04:04 PM |
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Edited by radar at 16:06, 29 May 2008.
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That's a reward for what you have done to bring the hero to this level. It's fair enough imo.
btw h4 Crusader hero + Sanctuary = pwnage
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