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Asheera
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
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posted July 14, 2008 09:33 PM |
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Edited by Asheera at 21:35, 14 Jul 2008.
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With your twisted logic we should prove you difference between angels and devils. It is the same race right?
This proves that you know nothing about Ashan lore at all. Angels have absolutely NOTHING to do with Devils. Angels are the Children of Elrath and cannot die permanently, whereas the Devil is a normal infernal creature like the Imp.
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BrennusWhiskey
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
The quickest H4 player
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posted July 14, 2008 09:37 PM |
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Devils are jus fallen angels. You did'n't know this? I have nothing to justify; I just said imps are not devils.
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DagothGares
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
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posted July 14, 2008 09:39 PM |
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Devils aren't fallen angels in homm universe, right? I think that's christian mythology (there's a difference)
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If you have any more questions, go to Dagoth Cares.
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Asheera
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
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posted July 14, 2008 09:41 PM |
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Devils are NOT fallen Angels in the world of Ashan
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Cepheus
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
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posted July 14, 2008 09:42 PM |
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Quote:
You did'n't know this? I have nothing to justify; I just said imps are not devils.
You told us to "Forget about imps and devils. Everybody knew that they are different." Maybe I'm insane or something but it seemed that by "different" you were implying that they're not the same race. Anybody can see that they're different in some respects, geez.
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Devils are jus fallen angels.
Wrong, Fallen Angels are Fallen Angels in Ashan. Not Devils.
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BrennusWhiskey
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
The quickest H4 player
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posted July 14, 2008 09:48 PM |
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Ah sorry you talking ONLY about Ashan. This is not topic about mythology and other things?
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Adrius
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Stand and fight!
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posted July 14, 2008 10:04 PM |
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Edited by Adrius at 22:06, 14 Jul 2008.
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I just want to sneak in with a little post here about the whole "demons are considered a race, then why are they all so different?"
Well, it might be because they worship CHAOS...!
I mean, that would make a mixed up, chaotic DNA thingy which makes everybody different make sense... right?
EDIT: oh yeah, and my 15-page prohecy has been broken... damn it
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del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
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posted July 14, 2008 10:24 PM |
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Quote:
Devils are jus fallen angels. You did'n't know this? I have nothing to justify; I just said imps are not devils.
Only in the Bible.
In the world of Heroes angles are advanced machines.
In Ashan demons are the breed of the evil dragon 
While the Angles are born from the air dragon but swapped to the ligth dragon.
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Geny
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted July 14, 2008 10:38 PM |
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Mvass, I'm sorry to drag you back to the Haven argument, but:
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And there's another reason for Haven to be different, as I have stated earlier: besides it being different from Dungeon in that Humans actually exist, it makes more sense for humans to be mostly alone.
When I said that about dwarves I was bashed from like 5 different directions.
And if you think there are no beasts we can add to the medieval-holy-pseudochristianic human troops you're wrong. Unicorns were once consider noble creatures and a symbol of a powerful king, as were dragons, of course angels have already been mentioned, heck you could probably even twist the bible stories a bit and the nephilim (giants born of angels and human kings), and that's just off top of my head, without any careful planning and research.
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DON'T BE A NOOB, JOIN A.D.V.E.N.T.U.R.E.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 14, 2008 11:38 PM |
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Quote:
The way I see it, Demon is the race and Imp, Devil, Pit Fiend etc are the subspecies, just like Centaur is a subspecies of Orc.
The way I see it, Demon is the "classification", and Imp, Devil, Pit Fiend, etc. are the race, just like Centaur is a race within Orcs. I mean, look at humans. They're not that different from each other. Look at Elves (both regular and Dark). Look at Dwarves (disregarding Thanes). Now look at Demons. They're completely different from each other, unlike the actual races.
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No, but I do see an Archer upgrade into a Priest
Well, that makes sense, since the skill that allows that is called "Training". It would also make sense for a Hunter to upgrade into a Druid, or a Brawler to upgrade into a Rune Mage. But no matter how much you train an Imp, it's not going to vastly increase its size, grow bigger horns, and lose fingers and hooves.
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The hero named Gretchin, who carried over from Heroes III, is a Goblin.
  It's more of a difference in art style than in actual physical looks.
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Unicorns were once consider noble creatures and a symbol of a powerful king, as were dragons
But unicorns are already taken, as are dragons. You don't want any more dragons, do you? 
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you could probably even twist the bible stories a bit and the nephilim (giants born of angels and human kings)
Well, the nephilim aren't that well-known.
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Eccentric Opinion
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted July 14, 2008 11:41 PM |
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Quote:
The way I see it, Demon is the "classification", and Imp, Devil, Pit Fiend, etc. are the race, just like Centaur is a race within Orcs. I mean, look at humans. They're not that different from each other. Look at Elves (both regular and Dark). Look at Dwarves (disregarding Thanes). Now look at Demons. They're completely different from each other, unlike the actual races.
That's because you expect them to be like us. Think "original" for goodness' sake 
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But no matter how much you train an Imp, it's not going to vastly increase its size, grow bigger horns, and lose fingers and hooves.
Seriously, back to the Zerg example (because I know Starcraft is popular and most people know about it), a Hydralisk can morph into a Lurker -- completely different creatures, same race.
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Cepheus
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
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posted July 14, 2008 11:48 PM |
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Quote:
The way I see it, Demon is the "classification", and Imp, Devil, Pit Fiend, etc. are the race, just like Centaur is a race within Orcs. I mean, look at humans. They're not that different from each other. Look at Elves (both regular and Dark). Look at Dwarves (disregarding Thanes). Now look at Demons. They're completely different from each other, unlike the actual races.
Well, I'll just have to disagree with you there. As I said, the Demons come from a totally separate plane of existence. They are not going to follow the same physical rules.
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It's more of a difference in art style than in actual physical looks.
Um, you do notice that she has a snout in the second image?
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But no matter how much you train an Imp, it's not going to vastly increase its size, grow bigger horns, and lose fingers and hooves.
Yeah, just like Zerg Drones don't grow extra body parts when they evolve into buildings and Kreegans can't evolve into Hive Queens.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 15, 2008 12:30 AM |
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That's because you expect them to be like us. Think "original" for goodness' sake
But elves and dwarves act that way.
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a Hydralisk can morph into a Lurker -- completely different creatures, same race
Same "alignnment", different race. The hydralisk changes itself into a lurker.
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As I said, the Demons come from a totally separate plane of existence. They are not going to follow the same physical rules.
But we're talking about rules of classification created by humans. They either fall under "race/species" or "alignment".
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Um, you do notice that she has a snout in the second image?
It's a difference in perspective and art style.
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Yeah, just like Zerg Drones don't grow extra body parts when they evolve into buildings and Kreegans can't evolve into Hive Queens.
Well, I don't know as much as I'd like to know about Might and Magic (I've only played VIII, and even that not all the way through), but these demons are not Kreegans. But Zerg Drones change themselves into buildings. You can't say that they're buildings to begin with.
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Eccentric Opinion
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 15, 2008 12:48 AM |
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Edited by xerox at 00:48, 15 Jul 2008.
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While the Angles are born from the air dragon but swapped to the ligth dragon.
Uhm.. no.
Angels were creatures of Elrath and Humans Sylath.
It was the humans that swapped side to Elrath (although the Free Cities still worship Sylath) not the Angels.
The Angels never swapped side.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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zazu1
Adventuring Hero
Makes Sense
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posted July 15, 2008 12:49 AM |
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Sweet Jesus! 17 pages. Kinda skimmed the last two, can't believe how fast people are posting. It looks like the conversation is now about inferno creatures being considered a race? Just to keep up with my thread, I would have to say that I completely agree with just about everything mvassilev has been saying on this subject. I don't even see how this is up for debate. The difference between the Inferno creatures is clearly much greater than the difference between the dwarf castle. Sure there all red and firey but that is because their theme is evil and satanic. Every creature is a unique creature with different backgrounds, unlike each of the dwarves. It just boggles my mind that someone would think otherwise.
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Daystar
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Back from the Dead
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posted July 15, 2008 06:05 AM |
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What about Hell Hounds and Nightmares? Are they individual races or are they evolutions/extensions/rejects/etc from the core "demon" race?
Also, is the Devil Teleporting inherent, and if so why can't all demons do it, or is it something they learn? If devils are a separate species, how do they reproduce, since all we see are male devils? I think, we really don't know. Or do they mate with Succubi, who are close enough to count?
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How exactly is luck a skill?
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted July 15, 2008 08:28 AM |
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Quote:
Quote:
The way I see it, Demon is the race and Imp, Devil, Pit Fiend etc are the subspecies, just like Centaur is a subspecies of Orc.
The way I see it, Demon is the "classification", and Imp, Devil, Pit Fiend, etc. are the race, just like Centaur is a race within Orcs. I mean, look at humans. They're not that different from each other. Look at Elves (both regular and Dark). Look at Dwarves (disregarding Thanes). Now look at Demons. They're completely different from each other, unlike the actual races.
Not that I haven't made this exact point a number of times previously in the topic, but I have to repeat, I'm with Mvassilev on this one: I see "Demon" as a larger scale classification, just like "Undead" or "Humanoid".
Thus, the way I think it makes most sense is to see it like this:
Class = Demons.
Speciae = Imps, Demons, Hell Hounds, Hell Horses, Devils, etc.
Class = Undead.
Speciae = Skeletons, Zombie, Ghosts, Vampires, Liches, etc.
Class = Humanoids.
Speciae = Humans, Elves, Dwarves, etc.
Also notice, that from this point of view, ironically, it would make sense to have one Demon faction (Inferno), one Undead faction (Necropolis) and one humanoid faction (Rampart!), i.e. Heroes 3 style (or rather: Heroes 2 style!) classification.
However, I think the further division of the individual Humanoids into single castles (Haven, Sylvan, Fortress) - i.e. Heroes 5 style - holds merit, as these races from typical modern fantasy/RPG lore are considered very individual and unique. However, as mentioned previously, which viewpoint you choose as most sensible depends completely on whether you have your roots in "modern" fantasy lore or "traditional" mythology (i.e. norse mythology), and there is not one which is more true than the other.
What I'm saying here is basically a repeat of the whole point of the "Phylogenetics" thread, but I suppose there is a strong overlap here (although we are seemingly drifting slightly off-topic in this thread).
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What will happen now?
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted July 15, 2008 09:32 AM |
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Sweet Jesus! 17 pages. Kinda skimmed the last two, can't believe how fast people are posting.
Uh-huh, things are moving fast.
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The difference between the Inferno creatures is clearly much greater than the difference between the dwarf castle. Sure there all red and firey but that is because their theme is evil and satanic. Every creature is a unique creature with different backgrounds, unlike each of the dwarves. It just boggles my mind that someone would think otherwise.
Agreed, and the only point we have in conflict here is the fact that I'm okay with it an you're not.
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Moonlith
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
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posted July 15, 2008 01:57 PM |
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Is this "argument" still going?
It doesn't really matter what is being said, the winddancer and the dwarven lineup still make poor concepts.
Also I would argue two races in one faction is NOT something that's impossible or should be avoided; as long as a good valid reason can be given, it is valid. I don't think anyone can be persuaded to believe dwarves and elves would work in a single faction again, but I don't hear anyone complain about goblins and orcs being in the same time.
Likewise, as long as you give a good background and reason, it is valid to shove two races into the same FACTION.
And this argument still holds: Even when a faction is dominated by a main race, that DOESN'T mean more than 2 spots in the lineup need to be occupied by that race. The lineup is no more than the army of the faction, which can consist out of anything. Having beasts in the army lineup DOESN'T mean beasts actually control the town on economic, political and religious levels.
It's just that those levels are not areas you get to play with in the game.
P.S: Asheera, I'm sexually attracted to you
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 15, 2008 02:05 PM |
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Goblins with Orcs makes a lot more sense then Elves and Dwarves lol
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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This thread is pages long: 
