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Zazu1
Adventuring Hero
Makes Sense
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posted July 07, 2008 09:09 PM |
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Edited by Zazu1 at 21:13, 07 Jul 2008.
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Quote:
Quote:
What H5 did is take a single creature from a castle and give them different outfits and call them different names.
You must be totally ignorant of what I write. I already explained that to you, what most of you people have said does in no way qualify near a 'good' line-up, it's not as easy as random picking, you have to come up with culture, social attributes, purpose and roles, philosophy, etc.. not just a bunch of random names like you continuously seem to imply.
If you do not take the time to read what I say or ignore and make me repeat myself then I do not see why I should post anymore, does that make you feel better? 
Hey, I read what you say, don't be calling me ignorant. I have the exact opposite opinions as you. I even said a couple pages ago that I would stop trying to debate with you. I, for one, don't have the time, and I frankly really don't care about the culture, social attributes.. ect. We have already been through this. And there are people out there who liked the campaign in heroes 3. I have been trying to move the argument, and I started to talk about a compromise that would make sense to both of us.
This is a quote that I said:
Quote:
Ok, Well, then at least we are going somewhere. I just don't see the point in having 3-4 of the same race in the same castle, when you can only have 1-2. Like it has been said before, the line-up is only the army of the castle. So why can't you except the fact that the rest of the race is part of the "culture". The story can explain that. There is no need in having more in the line-up.
I am not sure that you read this.
Edit: Wow, there have been about 5 posts since I was writing this which relates to what I just said.
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Asheera
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
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posted July 07, 2008 09:13 PM |
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@Geny: 
Don't play with words, I meant the "race category"
Some more examples (of beasts):
Gremlins, the lizard the Dark Rider rides, [Hydras are monstrous or aberration I think], Griffins, Centaurs, Cyclopi (?) etc...
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Adrius
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Stand and fight!
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posted July 07, 2008 09:15 PM |
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The Prohecy of Adrius
This thread will live for 15 pages
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted July 07, 2008 09:22 PM |
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Quote:
Hey, I read what you say, don't be calling me ignorant. I have the exact opposite opinions as you. I even said a couple pages ago that I would stop trying to debate with you. I, for one, don't have the time, and I frankly really don't care about the culture, social attributes.. ect. We have already been through this. And there are people out there who liked the campaign in heroes 3. I have been trying to move the argument, and I started to talk about a compromise that would make sense to both of us.
I was not talking whether that is going to be 'important' or not (culture and all that).
My point was that you or someone else (sorry to blame if it wasn't you) used the following argument: Race-based towns are unimaginative. And then you just blew some completely random names for creatures.
What I was trying to say in this regard, is that you have absolutely no idea how make a decent line-up -- my point was not targetting theme-based ideas. I was targetting your argument about race-based towns being just a random idea and unimaginative. If you want to come up with a decent line-up for a race-based town, you have to include all the above (culture, social attributes and all that).
So I am not arguing against the original theme-based vs race-based, but rather on your arguments about race-based being unimaginative and easy to come up with.
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Geny
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted July 07, 2008 09:22 PM |
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alc, please close this thread.
@Asheera
I didn't try to play with words, I was trying to show you that if something unites a group of cretures it doesn't have to be their race.
And since I dodn't know how else to explain it, let's ask wiki :
Quote:
In biology, a race is any inbreeding group
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DON'T BE A NOOB, JOIN A.D.V.E.N.T.U.R.E.
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Cepheus
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
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posted July 07, 2008 09:24 PM |
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Quote:
I hope I did not imply that Nival are the best and so on -- I meant how a race based town should be (talking about e.g: Heroes 6).
Ah, so we're agreed that Nival could certainly have done a better job at best.
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del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
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posted July 07, 2008 09:49 PM |
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Quote:
In Starcraft, Zerg is a race too, even if not all creatures share the same DNA
Lets se:
The zerg attacks someting and takes its DNA and makes its a part of the Zerg.
So all the Zerg do is to infect a race and take controll over merges with it, but it is still a Zerg because its core of DNA is Zerg.
You cannot say that a black person is not as much human as a white person, because people are humans no matter what so long they don't evolve into someting crazy(giant big monster )
Eh what does this have do to with the Zerg? Simple, after how a Zerg works by infecting and merging over to other races it is ALLWAYS a Zerg because it is suppose to posses and take over and merge.
If a demon and a human had a child, it is a different matter.
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DagothGares
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
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posted July 07, 2008 10:11 PM |
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Quote:
If a demon and a human had a child, it is a different matter.
Yeah... You get the dark messiah
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If you have any more questions, go to Dagoth Cares.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted July 07, 2008 11:13 PM |
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Quote:
alc, please close this thread.
I might just end up having to, but I really don't want to. I still think this discussion has something relevant to bring. If it goes on like this for much longer, however, I might just be proven mistaken.
Btw. I have a slight feeling my post on the previous page was completely overlooked ... but nevermind that.
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What will happen now?
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 08, 2008 12:23 AM |
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Edited by xerox at 13:20, 08 Jul 2008.
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Zergs are also mutated creatures that were once friendly on other planets, just as you know.
Zerg is something you are, not a race. Same with undead and demons ( atleast demons in Warcraft >;P )
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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A5ado
Tavern Dweller
Master of Logic
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posted July 08, 2008 07:05 AM |
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Quote:
Here are the races from Neverwinter Nights (which is based on the famous D&D setting!):
Thanks for completely not reading anything I said. I do not care if any other game considers undead a race. I specifically said that I do not consider it as a race. Therefore when reading my posts, just understand that I am referring to "any inbreeding group" (or a species). You can still maintain that undead is a race, but for the purpose of this argument, it is a theme. If you like necropolis and inferno, and do not like fortress, then you are a theme-based line up fan.
TheDeath, you are trying to defend the creature lineup of all dwarves by saying that while the line-up is easy to make, its the culture and background that are more difficult. First of all, where do you learn the culture and background if not from campaign? And second, there is no reason why there needs to be 6 tiers of dwarves for there to be a good culture and background. We are saying that the dwarf line-up is not a good line-up. You are clearly saying that it is, so there is not more to discuss on the subject.
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Zazu1
Adventuring Hero
Makes Sense
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posted July 08, 2008 07:44 AM |
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Edited by Zazu1 at 08:26, 08 Jul 2008.
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Quote:
Quote:
alc, please close this thread.
I might just end up having to, but I really don't want to. I still think this discussion has something relevant to bring. If it goes on like this for much longer, however, I might just be proven mistaken.
Btw. I have a slight feeling my post on the previous page was completely overlooked ... but nevermind that.
Don't close the thread yet! There are a few things that haven't been answered. Actually, what I think you should do is make it a sticky. I think this thread had some pretty deep discussion about heroes. And I'm sorry for over looking your post  . I kinda wanted to move on from that subject. And if I did respond it would have been "I agree".
Ok now, what is concerning me now that the imp faction post got a quality post sticker. I would like to know why. For me at least, there are two defining characteristics that make a game. Those being substance, and the game-play. Substance being more or less the appearance, the uniqueness, the characters. The game-play, obviously being the different components that can change the way the game is played. He offered an idea on one castle, which in my opinion is god-awful when it comes to substance (but opinions like that obviously don't matter when it comes to the quality of the post). But he does have a few creative ideas that would make playing the fact fun. I mean I would play it if 7 out of 7 creatures were changed along with the whole theme. But nonetheless, he offered a few ok ideas. My post on the other hand offered 12, and eventually 13 castles with 8 tiers each. Some of them are completely new and original ideas. And along with that I offered a few ideas, one of them being a new creative idea which would change the game-play in the whole game greatly. So my question is why does he deserve a quality post and I don't.
Also, I have only seen one rebuttal to my argument about the amount of a single race in a castle. Why don't you like it if there were one or two humanoids (or fully conscience magical beasts as TheDeath suggested) in the same castle that keep the culture in the castle if you can back it up in the story? It was already said that the line-up only consists of the army. So there could very well be more of the same race behind the scenes that keeps the town in order.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted July 08, 2008 08:43 AM |
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Quote:
He offered an idea on one castle, which in my opinion is god-awful when it comes to substance (but opinions like that obviously don't matter when it comes to the quality of the post).
Quality is in the eye of the beholder, but as a Moderator, I need to look at not only what I specifically like, but where a good effort is put into a project. The Quality bonus serves a dual purpose, on one hand, they are to show other forumers where to look for good stuff, and on the other, it serves as an encouragement for members to keep up a good effort. Thus, when someone puts a lot of work into a project, it'll be likely to grant him a QP, whether or not I really like the project a lot.
Furthermore, quality is about that, also - quality rather than quantity, and in this case, I think the work done was both innovative - certainly, I've never seen this idea before! - and in-depth. That's not to write off your project, but frankly, writing up 12, 13 or even 15 creature line-ups does not require that much of an effort. And to be honest, I don't see your work in that thread to offer anything particularly new - most of these factions are re-writings of Heroes 3, and for the rest - we have seen plenty of water factions, night factions, desert factions etc. Like you say for yourself, in fact, what you suggest is pretty close to what we had in WOG - which does not make it bad, but not very groundbreaking either. We have, by now, a host of threads suggesting line-ups for Heroes 6, and I chose not to award all of them with QP's.
I would be much more interested in seeing an in-depth description of the new up-grade system you sugest, and what it would add to the game. That, to me, would be a much more worthwhile contribution to the forum, as I see it. Just like this thread, which I awarded a QP, because I think it contributes a very worthwhile discussion to the forum. That's the policy I choose for granting QP's - and if you want to discuss this further, we can take it in the Feedback Thread. 
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What will happen now?
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted July 08, 2008 01:41 PM |
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Quote:
TheDeath, you are trying to defend the creature lineup of all dwarves by saying that while the line-up is easy to make, its the culture and background that are more difficult.
I did not say that, I said that the line-up is not easy to make because, if it consists of creatures that also have e.g: culture (not tamed beasts, for example) then it plays a vital role to include the specifics of it (dwarves are part of the culture).
Quote:
First of all, where do you learn the culture and background if not from campaign? And second, there is no reason why there needs to be 6 tiers of dwarves for there to be a good culture and background. We are saying that the dwarf line-up is not a good line-up. You are clearly saying that it is, so there is not more to discuss on the subject.
You might learn it from the campaign, or online articles, doesn't matter -- but you still use it in the multiplayer, doesn't mean that it has to be bound to the campaign ONLY!
The line-up might not necessarily include creatures from the culture (e.g: dwarves), but once you include creatures that make up culture (dwarves in our case), it's not just a easy random-creature-line-up like you propose. It needs to play a certain role to culture. For example, are dwarves strong? Their culture also states that they are not very accepting of others creatures. They have defensive formations, thus we have the Defender. Dwarves don't like bows, neither crossbows, thus we need some kind of Harpooner or Spearwielder -- and they are not very good at range combat either. But this is of course, an awful simplification of what it should consist of a good line-up.
So what I'm saying is. If you want to add beasts to a town, you don't need culture for the line-up, as the beast themselves may not play a vital role (even though you have to find a reasonable 'tamed' description, not a random soup!). If you, however, add creatures like e.g: dwarves which also apparently make the culture in the town, then the line-up is not as easy as you people make it seem. So please don't use that "here is a unimaginative line-up" arguments
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Asheera
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
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posted July 08, 2008 02:07 PM |
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Quote:
If you like necropolis and inferno, and do not like fortress, then you are a theme-based line up fan.
But I like both Necropolis AND Fortress.
A quote by Alc:Quote:
And to be honest, I don't see your work in that thread to offer anything particularly new - most of these factions are re-writings of Heroes 3,
You theme-based fans call us race-based ones unoriginal, but YOU copy from Heroes 3, or from mythological sources! Who is unoriginal and unimaginative here, huh?
Also, copying mythological creatures from different sources and placing them in one game doesn't make it original AT ALL.
If I create a game with Superman, Batman, and ALL Marvel Comic characters, but also add all Mortal Kombat characters and possibly add even the Lord of the Rings characters, and on top of that let's say I also add Santa Claus/The Tooth Fairy, well, that would be the lamest game EVER.
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DagothGares
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
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posted July 08, 2008 02:15 PM |
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Actually, that sounds like super smash bros brawl.
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If you have any more questions, go to Dagoth Cares.
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Daystar
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Back from the Dead
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posted July 08, 2008 02:17 PM |
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Quote:
from mythological sources!
That's the point of Heroes itself...
Heroes is about putting fantasy creatures from all over together, and finding reasons for doing so. In fact, most high fantasy games are like that, when you think about it. It's not "Uncreative" since it is in the theme of the game. I admit that if your whole line up is all fantasy monsters that doesn't work, but it's fine to have 3-5 creatures from various fantasies and then the core race.
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How exactly is luck a skill?
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Cepheus
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
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posted July 08, 2008 02:34 PM |
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Edited by Cepheus at 14:49, 08 Jul 2008.
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Quote:
If I create a game with Superman, Batman, and ALL Marvel Comic characters, but also add all Mortal Kombat characters and possibly add even the Lord of the Rings characters, and on top of that let's say I also add Santa Claus/The Tooth Fairy, well, that would be the lamest game EVER.
Yes, that is a random soup, which nobody likes or would realistically put into a Heroes game. Definitely not a decent theme-based town.
Quote:
Who is unoriginal and unimaginative here, huh?
...six tiers of Dwarves
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Asheera
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
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posted July 08, 2008 03:05 PM |
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Quote:
Yes, that is a random soup, which nobody likes or would realistically put into a Heroes game. Definitely not a decent theme-based town.
I said a game with all those characters (not necessarily all of them in one town). Would you call it original and imaginative?
For example a game with:
Mortal Kombat town (with MK characters) - MK theme
Marvel Comics town
Lord of the Rings town (with LotR characters) - LotR theme
Maybe you don't understand, but copying Mythological creatures from different sources and not modifying them at all (Nival actually created 6 dwarves - thus they were "modified") is the same as copying other "made-up" characters and creatures, like those from MK. Do you think this is original?
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Cepheus
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
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posted July 08, 2008 03:33 PM |
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Quote:
I said a game with all those characters (not necessarily all of them in one town). Would you call it original and imaginative?
Again, nope
Quote:
Do you think this is original?
That depends. Anyone can steal a name and use it however they like. It's the artwork and implementation which gives it the flavour. I can take a Cyclops, make it into some guy who throws rocks and throw it into some town. But if I instead make a gigas who wields trees, is about twelve foot tall and flings Goblins - basically, in the Heroes V style - that is pretty original. You're not staying 100% true to the mythology, per se, but you're putting your own spin on it. Now that's something which neither Heroes III (pulling creatures straight out of mythology) or Heroes V (coming this close to copyright infringements on Warhammer) has totally succeeded in, since originality in armies is not these games' goal. Plagarism is a good thing in Heroes (if using mythological creatures in their original form actually counts as plagarism at all).
The originality isn't really an issue for me - it's the variety. I don't want to see buckets of say, Dwarves or Dark Elves in one town. Two or three is fine, there are no problems there, but when you put six of them together there's an obvious suggestion that either the developers were pressed for time (Heroes III Conflux), couldn't come up with any good mythologies to reference (no examples here), had a good, unique race to base things around (Demons?) or simply felt that animating so many Dwarves was easier than adding a few creatures with an actual basis in fantasy.
On the other hand, if the town's "race" is varied enough to warrant something like that, I say go for it. Heroes V's Inferno is a perfect example of an excellent race-based town. It's got five tiers of Demons, which are a single race (Imps too, whatever) and two demon-like beasts. If all of them didn't have unique graphics and roles (Brawlers, wtf) I'd say it was poor implementation (operable words: In My Personal Opinion), but the way they are now, I really enjoy the Demons.
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This thread is pages long: 
