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| Thread: Price of peace? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · «PREV |
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Doomforge
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posted July 18, 2008 10:43 AM |
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Trivial.. hmm.
I think it's the flaw of democracy, actually.
People "rule" but how many of them want war? I'd say strict minority. Yet countries - supposedly democratic - like the States, Russia or Israel engage in wars anyways. Quite opposite to what the people want.
People we choose do what we don't want them to do.
If democracy worked as intended, there would be no wars. Honestly, who wants war?
Would you vote to attack another country? I wouldn't.
Of course there are those who are fundamentalists or under tyranny and would attack you anyway, but that's another matter ;p
It's not the fault of humanity imho. It's not our "feat". It's the effect of our other problem - We are too vulnerable to propaganda, as world war II has shown. A mixture of propaganda and cultural influences create the "we want war" problem.
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winterfate
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posted July 18, 2008 10:51 AM |
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Honestly, who wants war?
Hehe...you know, you answered your own question a little above that. 
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It's not the fault of humanity imho.
Well, the people of said countries could revolt against their government. After all, you said it yourself, and I quote:
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People we choose do what we don't want them to do.
So, in a way, it is humanity's fault for not doing anything to stop the government. If you see your government doing something that's hurting the state of your country, protest. If that doesn't work, you turn it up another notch. If the government still won't listen, then revolt. It worked wonders in the French Revolution.
A saying I heard a while ago summarizes this thought perfectly:
"Government was made to serve the people."
Or, this one fits well too:
"People should not be afraid of their government. Government should be afraid of its people.
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If you supposedly care about someone, then don't push them out of your life. Acting like you're not doing it doesn't exempt you from what I just said. - Winterfate
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Doomforge
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posted July 18, 2008 11:06 AM |
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If the government still won't listen, then revolt. It worked wonders in the French Revolution.
Wonders? Well, FR was a failure imho Besides, I think you oversimply a bit. Want us to revolt and plunge the country into a chaos that will destroy it economically? no thanks.
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"People should not be afraid of their government. Government should be afraid of its people.
too bad it works the other way round 
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winterfate
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posted July 18, 2008 11:11 AM |
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too bad it works the other way round
Unfortunately, but we can dream, can't we?
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If you supposedly care about someone, then don't push them out of your life. Acting like you're not doing it doesn't exempt you from what I just said. - Winterfate
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Moonlith
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posted July 18, 2008 01:04 PM |
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How many people do enjoy destroying their own world? Think about it. I don't know even a single one who does so.
I'd say, just about every single human being who drives a CAR "enjoys" destroying his or her own world, although unaware of it (obliviousness? Stupidity?)
Btw, not sure if this is the right topic, but about the whole Israel / Palestina / Lebanon conflict, Israel's action to attack Lebanon to free two soldiers was injust and immoral, and utterly disgusting.
Soldiers are there to protect civilians, they take up arms to protect those that don't and to SACRIFICE themselves for civilians if they must. That's what being a soldier is all about, to be ready to die for those you wish to protect, when it comes to that.
What Israel did was attack Civilians (or rather, deliberately ignoring the fact civilian casualties were inevitable) of Lebanon to free TWO FRICKING SOLDIERS.
/offtopic ?
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TheDeath
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posted July 18, 2008 01:22 PM |
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Doomforge: when 'ecologists' say humans are evil, they are obviously generalizing, not ALL of them are evil (example: ecologists or those that don't do it for their own greed). It is a generalization, and mostly speaks about those in power.
The Power Plant (I suppose a polluting one, right?) example is pretty close to "greed", I mean what else do you expect from trashing and polluting while you can have light and all that? I like how new CPU manufacturers like Intel try to preserve energy as much as possible, you see there are a lot of "better" alternatives (even though NOT PERFECT), and ignoring them simply marks you as someone in the 'ecologists' target.
Not to mention that people use lights more than "necessary" -- necessary is a broad term here be ware.
As for the car example: Moonlith is kinda right. You can't put your hand in fire and not expect to be burned. You can't drive a car and not expect to pollute. Even if consciously you don't want it, your actions imply it, thus your subconscious wants it.
I know you'll say cars are needed and all that -- but that's because of the mentality we have set. Most people expect someone to drive a car to work, thus the boss expects such a thing. It is a whole chain process. For example, with a car you might arrive faster and more comfortable for YOU to work than with a bicycle, BUT you have to expect also that you pollute and WANT that, since you do it. In short, here it's a form of less-evil greed called "comfort" or "faster". I know that the boss might fire you otherwise, but the WHOLE mentality (including the boss) is bad. But if no one ever makes a "step", how are we supposed to change it? If everyone is afraid of a revolution, how are we supposed to escape from a tyrantic government (analogy obviously!).
Comfort is not evil -- it is evil only when it comes at the expense of something else. And by "something" else of course I mean disturbing the balance or life. Breaking a rock (like mvass used) doesn't affect any balance really.
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Moonlith
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posted July 18, 2008 01:29 PM |
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Nicely put.
Which is exactly the reason why I don't want to get involved with ANYTHING that makes humans more lazy - like cars - especially when it goes at the cost of even more than just making you lazy. There's not a place you can't get to by either using the bicycle or a bus / train if it's really far away.
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TheDeath
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posted July 18, 2008 01:46 PM |
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Granted there could be a few emergencies and that might be justified, but in today's society (and my country for example), people drive a car to get the newspaper
(i know I exaggerated but you get the point)
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Geny
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posted July 18, 2008 01:54 PM |
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About cars:
Let's not mix WANT with ACCEPT. People don't drive cars because they WANT to pollute, they drive cars because they either don't care or see it as a necessary evil until a better way is found. As for making the first step, a sort of 'revolution' - revolutions rarely begin from the bottom, the working class is too busy to 'make a move', initiatives must come from the top - the governments, the companies, people with money and power etc. Meaning, for example, that if it will become more convinient to ride a bus than a car (or at least not much less convinient) many people will do, but that can only happen if the bus companies along with the government will make it convinient enough.
About invading Lebanon to rescue "only" two soldiers:
No one joins the army in order to sacrifice themselves, those who do usually don't get recruited because of over-motivation. True, soldiers know that there's a possibility they'll have to do it, but no one enlists for that. Also, a soldier that protects his country expects his country to protect him, and rightfully so. So, when two people are taken away as prisoners, their country must do everything in its power to get them out. Because if the country doesn't care about its citizens then what the hell do they need it for?
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TheDeath
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posted July 18, 2008 01:58 PM |
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Quote:
About cars:
Let's not mix WANT with ACCEPT. People don't drive cars because they WANT to pollute, they drive cars because they either don't care or see it as a necessary evil until a better way is found. As for making the first step, a sort of 'revolution' - revolutions rarely begin from the bottom, the working class is too busy to 'make a move', initiatives must come from the top - the governments, the companies, people with money and power etc. Meaning, for example, that if it will become more convinient to ride a bus than a car (or at least not much less convinient) many people will do, but that can only happen if the bus companies along with the government will make it convinient enough.
Well as I said, it's a chain reaction that will have to come from both sides 
Of course I never said that people WANT TO DESTROY NATURE -- they simply don't care, they want to satisfy themselves ONLY... that's the problem
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mvassilev
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posted July 18, 2008 02:11 PM |
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Winterfate:
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That's sig-worthy. May I?
Yes, you may.
Doomforge:
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People "rule" but how many of them want war? I'd say strict minority. Yet countries - supposedly democratic - like the States, Russia or Israel engage in wars anyways. Quite opposite to what the people want.
Well, I think that you'd find that propoganda can do wonders in controlling public opinion to where the majority does want war, even though if they sat down and thought about it, they'd realize that it'd be bad.
TheDeath and Moolith:
Can we keep the misanthropy to two threads, please?
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Asheera
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posted July 18, 2008 02:30 PM |
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Can we keep the misanthropy to two threads, please?
Yeah, every thread here turns into a "humans are evil" thread (I remember the Economy thread turned like this as well)
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TheDeath
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posted July 18, 2008 02:35 PM |
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At least the economy thread had something to do with it
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Moonlith
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posted July 18, 2008 03:30 PM |
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Hey it's not my fault that "humans are evil" is the logical conclusion that flows out of every thread created here
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winterfate
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posted July 18, 2008 09:37 PM |
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@mvassilev: Thanks! 
@Asheera: Probably has something to do with the fact that all the threads are about humans.
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If you supposedly care about someone, then don't push them out of your life. Acting like you're not doing it doesn't exempt you from what I just said. - Winterfate
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