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| Thread: Different Factions Under Different Heroes | |
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted August 03, 2008 02:21 PM |
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Different Factions Under Different Heroes
One of Ubi's initial plans in creating H5 was to dissuade players from using non-native heroes as was the case with the previous games. The faction specific racials were introduced and you can no longer select a hero class of your choice like in the H4 taverns, both good measures. Also a complex skillwheel was adopted with many faction specific abilities some tied directly to the racial as a further anti-motive in picking foreigners. Feels like a barred door or is it?
Following a recent discussion with Kispagat I started wondering if my mind was just closed to that possibility and I am having second thoughts. My answer is, it depends. There are some special conditions for that to work successfully, a matter of the racial/skills, alignment and the faction's magic schools.
Let's take a look at them.
RACIALS
Artificer is pretty much out of the question, this racial is better used by a main and only academy units can benefit from it. I suppose you could give a secondary wizard some knowledge arties, maybe use mentoring to boost him but I am not convinced that it would be worth the trouble. Using a non-native hero with a secondary wizard to boost academy units is off.
Bloodrage, gating, avenger, runelore are also out of limits and their respective armies need them too much to survive. I'll get back on that.
Training seems the easier to utilize, all you have to do is get a secondary knight and give him expert trainer and counterstrike. After all a knight main is always running around and I always use a secondary to train  Provided that the map offers some chests or sphinxes as RR. So theoretically you could have another hero leading haven forces.
Irresistible magic is also not an obstacle since it's not tied to a specific faction. A warlock could be used anywhere as long as he can get destructive spells.
Necromancy can gather some troops, extra army is always handy as long as the alignment does not mess with the morale too much. Unless destructive is in play in which case you have a free stack, say skeleton warriors. Kispagat's knight faced Kaspar leading fortress forces with a warrior stack that kept spamming destructive until he won. Yes he had some morale issues but it was a hero battle, destructive, ballista AND plague tent with specialty can be tough to handle early.
MAGIC SCHOOLS
Academy: Light and Summoning
Dungeon: Destructive and Summoning
Haven: Dark and Light
Inferno: Dark and Destructive
Necropolis: Dark and Summoning
Sylvan: Destructive and Light
Fortress: Destructive and Light
Now let's see how the hero classes compare. I will only focus on the spellcasters since they are the more interesting choices.
Warlock
A warlock could easily fit in fortress, a natural tanky army with fire resistances. Good destructive and also light that is a good option should he manage to get the skill. Now add 2 units that can apply mark of fire on their opponents  Of course that leaves no cheesy fury creeping or invisible stalkers that can kill almost anything by week 2 but creeping should still be fine. Shieldguards die hard, what might pose a little problem is getting enough mana if you get many high hp stacks.
As sylvan he could be just fine with the high druids turning his knowledge into extra spellpower but there's a flaw. Sylvan units drop like flies, especially without a ranger's natural defense. A boosted holy word against necro would be fun to use though  So that seems more of an earlygame to midgame choice while destructive is deadly.
Academy could also work if you don't plan on a long game. Guaranteed summoning and you'll get some destructive through library, after all secrets and starting spell should be enough for earlygame. The benefits are the gargoyles(obsidians for armageddon/elemental for insane destructive) and viziers that have a high natural magic protection. Could work but I still prefer wizards with their mini arties of course
Finally inferno. In am not too thrilled in this idea either but they could move much faster than a demonlord if you want to rush an opponent. Also let's not forget that some warlocks already start with dark which could prove interesting. Cotn abuse with pitspawns bwahaha 
Speaking of dark don't even consider the possibility of necro, the combination just sucks.
Wizard
The wizard could be a good main but only while it's early. His main strengths lie in the minies, special properties of his academy units and the magic availability so that the opponents cannot guess his tactics.
In dungeon he wouldn't be bad but there's the matter of the warlock faring better Still easy stalker/fury creeping, trade guild and a destructive/summoning guild could make him a viable choice.
Fortress could also work but again a runemage with runes could do better. At least you can move faster in earlygame without messing with the morale since you will also need might to get you through.
Sylvan could do fine and you do have some amazing knowledge for the high druids to convert into sweet spellpower. Pristines for light combos and ancient treants for defense would complement you nicely with the main drawback remaining low defense.
Necro and inferno is out for obvious reasons.
As someone already mentioned a wizard would not be bad with haven forces. Or would he? Suppose you get training normally with a secondary, is light/dark enough to compensate for a knight's morale, attack/leadership abilities and stats? I think not, the army feels incompartible. If a might army charges and massacres your forces on the first turn I'd like to see you get back on your feet without summoning. Yep the opponent will most likely have swift mind, you? On the positive side motw with vampirism/regeneration/resurrection and blind/frenzy is fun.
Necromancer
This guy has fewer options. In another faction his raising dead would be close to useless and he is one of those classes that depend on both summoning and dark. However he had high spellpower so a destructive town could work for a rush. Dungeon, fortress and academy sound decent in this respect.
Runemage
Now this hero is versatile having both might and magic skills and abilities. Another town would probably give him faster creeping since he wouldn't be depending on shieldguards, however not many towns have light/destructive that would fit him. His rune special would be wasted and he could not be chosen as a destructive nuker either. Only town he could use with the least drawbacks is haven since he would be trading runelore for training. He could pursue a light/might build but alas the knight is still better at that. Of his unique perks only dwarven luck would be nice, rest would not work with haven army or the knight already has.
So far I can conclude that to make up for the lack of racial you need a hero with high magical aptitude, most notably destructive. I have not tried the above but the warlock seems the safer bet.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Lexxan
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Unimpressed by your logic
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posted August 03, 2008 02:29 PM |
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I myself have experienced often that Sylvan and kinght easily can exchange troops. High/Elder Druids easily can boost the Knight's low Magical Statts, without suffering a Defence Penalty. In fact, the Defence will in most cases be higher that with the ordinairy Ranger.
it works fine the other way as well. Haven's access to Dark Magic works perfectly well with Rangers (though they have low chances of getting Dark).
Mixing both troops is really fun as well. I once squashed an opponent with an army made of Paladins, Battle unicorns, Arcane Archers, High Druids, Wind Dancers, Archangels and Inquisitors. (Hero was Gilraen, he had Leadership, Defence, Light, Dark and Luck as Skills(this was before I was a good Sylvan player, some months ago))
Conclusion: Sylvan and Haven forces blend in perfectly well
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Coincidence? I think not!!!!
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broadstrong
Promising
Known Hero
Level 20 Vassal of Light
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posted August 03, 2008 03:55 PM |
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Quote:
Sylvan and Haven forces blend in perfectly well
Agree on this one, in fact whenever I start my one-of-those-RMG-generated XL maps with Haven, I am always hoping that the nearest neutral town is Sylvan town, imagine an army with BOTH crossbowmen and arcane archers...
However, the respective heroes leading the other faction troops would need to buff up their weaker stats (knowledge for knight, Attack for ranger).
Here is my take on the versatility of "foreign" heroes for each faction, in two scenarios, either hero taking "foreign" troops or troops under "foreign" hero.
Haven -- Foreign troops can't be trained (because they are not humans), foreign hero can't use racial building, but a secondary knight hero can train troops to give to other heroes.
Verdict: slight versatility
Sylvan -- I believe foreign troops can be affected by avenger ability (correct me if wrong), but foreign heroes cannot use racial building.
Verdict: some versatility? or no versatility?
Academy -- Mini-arties not for foreign troops, foreign hero cannot use racial building, but I think troops with mini-arties retain them when transferred to foreign heroes.
Verdict: slight versatility
Fortress -- Runes not for foreign troops, foreign hero cannot learn runes.
Verdict: no versatility
Inferno -- Foreign troops can't gate, foreign hero cannot have gating ability.
Verdict: no versatility
Dungeon -- Foreign troops can benefit from hero's elemental chain, foreign hero cannot have elemental chains. Imagine the extra damage from heavy-hitters like the upgraded cyclops...
Verdict: some versatility there
Necropolis -- necromancy does not revive non-undead troops. Hero can't raise their own non-undead troops, though undead troops and living troops can be side-by-side, subject to conditions.
(In Heroes 3 and 4, undead troops give additional morale penalty, why is this feature no more in Heroes 5?)
Verdict: No versatility in a way, since necromancy has nothing to do with living troops, apart from raising undead that causes morale reduction
Stronghold -- Foreign troops don't have rage counters, foreign heroes don't have blood rage ability.
Verdict: no versatility, without a doubt
Seems like "good" troops (esp. haven) are more versatile.
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kermit
Known Hero
Soul hunter
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posted August 04, 2008 03:19 PM |
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From my recent experience, wizard hero works real well with sylvan troops. The high druids are just great for boosting the wizard's spell power, then you also have the pristines and treants for taking the heat. Ofcourse you don't get any of that first strike action, but given some might stats a midgame wizard is pretty solid with sylvan troops. Later on it's unquestionnable that the wizard without mini arties is a dead man.
One of the things that is enjoyable with warlock, is that his racial elemental damage works with any type of troops, not only dungeon. All that is needed for extra elemental damage is a single altar of the elements in one dungeon town and any type of troop controlled by a warlock will have the elemental damage bonus.
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broadstrong
Promising
Known Hero
Level 20 Vassal of Light
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posted August 04, 2008 03:37 PM |
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Quote:
One of the things that is enjoyable with warlock, is that his racial elemental damage works with any type of troops, not only dungeon. All that is needed for extra elemental damage is a single altar of the elements in one dungeon town and any type of troop controlled by a warlock will have the elemental damage bonus.
Agree.
Without a dungeon town (which had happened to one of my recent XL map, to my pleasantsurprise), the warlock can only rely on spells and elemental visions to cause increased damage, that is why dungeon towns should be captured and defended well (so that opponent warlocks can't use their troops for increased damage, not to mention hall of intrigue which automatically adds +1 knowledge to warlocks). Especially since I am a haven player (and haven in lategame is known to lose to...dungeon, of all races)
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted August 04, 2008 03:59 PM |
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Umm not really. Lategame haven defeats most others and especially dungeon. Only case I managed to lose on week 5 was because my opponent had ring of speed and staff of netherworld, otherwise..
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Kispagat
Famous Hero
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posted August 04, 2008 04:49 PM |
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Thanks Elvin to open this discussion.
The idea came from a game where Willgefors gave me a lesson on ratrace with Kaspar leading dwarfen army.
My conclusion on this is similar to Elvin's but not that detailed. Caster factions, who need meat to win by magic, may consider to use other factions army.
Certainly: Only in case of emergency or under very strict condition.
Ratrace is a good example, because final fight is in week 3 and taking middle decides the game at least 70% of the games.
Now imagine that you are dwarf and get two weak hero and Kaspar, or Lethos or Sinitar. (naturally Ingwar would not be substituted)
For me on ratrace leading sylvan army with other magic factioned hero is also an option. You can focus on treant and druids (there are dwelling for both) and fight with magic. I dont think there is a big chance for a "foreigner" hero, cuz sylvan has many good heroes, but might change Dirael or Talanar.
Some people exclude foreigner hero with stronghold army. Well, rage is important, but you get magic defence on the other hand.
Ps.
As a result for that game, if I look at the tavern and see a foreign hero as my opponent's main, I always consider the chance if its just a chaining or a real option
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted August 04, 2008 05:06 PM |
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Yes there's also the dimension of what approach your enemy takes. You don't want a surprise in the final battle Btw I wonder if you could hire a ranger as a main to another faction and still get to use avenger from a neutral sylvan. If that is a possible then a haven with retribution, luck AND avenger could be scary. Too bad a ranger can't have both retribution and empathy but then aura of swiftness with haven would not be bad at all.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Isabel
Known Hero
Dragonblessed
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posted August 05, 2008 10:09 AM |
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Edited by Isabel at 10:10, 05 Aug 2008.
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As long as you don't pick Leadership, anyone can lead an undead army. A knight or demon lord will do fine.
Skeleton warriors with retribution and preperation 
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Lexxan
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Unimpressed by your logic
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posted August 05, 2008 10:12 AM |
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Knight is the best for an undead army. A racial that affect every unit, High Att/def parametes, what do you need more. only downside: high chances of getting Leadership. Take Rutger or Vittorio
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Coincidence? I think not!!!!
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted August 05, 2008 01:33 PM |
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Why would anyone in their right mind pick a weak lineup that does not have extra units from necromancy and do not benefit from leadership? Let's face it, undead suck when it comes to might.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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phoenixreborn
Promising
Legendary Hero
Unicorn
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posted August 05, 2008 02:22 PM |
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I just played a map against hard AI.
My secondary was a warlock hero with inferno troops that the AI had built up.
It worked well with the imps draining for the warlock to cast empowered ice bolts.
Maybe not as good for a main...
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Isabel
Known Hero
Dragonblessed
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posted August 05, 2008 03:41 PM |
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Quote:
Why would anyone in their right mind pick a weak lineup that does not have extra units from necromancy and do not benefit from leadership?
Ah... you are right. This is just for fun anyway, not for a main hero.
The four "good" factions can interchange armies well, I enjoy knight leading academy army, remember Godric?
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ebbafan
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted August 06, 2008 02:24 AM |
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i hope people are not just now realizing how viable this strategy is...
a knight is great for academy's mini-artifact laden army for the final battle
mentoring obviously helps a lot
warlock armageddon better with golems rather than gargs b/c of racial
just won a map using vittorio for inferno faction. if you know its going to be a rushed game, better get a fast creeper(forget the faction!).
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perathekojot
Known Hero
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posted August 06, 2008 10:49 PM |
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Here is one such game: http://www.speedyshare.com/433578481.html Map is Hourglass. Not sure about week, but it was pretty late. Guess sylvan player waited thinking sylvan will gain more then academy with every new week. Which would be true, if I haven't used knight as my main. He was mentored just for final battle only, so no logictis, just pure might skills: attack, defense, enlightment, light and leadership. Plus minies made by "creeping - main" hero with 52 points in knowledge made academy more might then sylvan. I think that academy would have won even without dv, but why take a chance Back in those days when dv wasn't banned in all toh games 
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted August 07, 2008 02:03 AM |
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Wow most impressive. Sylvan really stood no chance.
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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ebbafan
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted August 07, 2008 03:49 AM |
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perathekojot, you the man! 
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perathekojot
Known Hero
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posted August 07, 2008 04:39 PM |
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Nebdar
Promising
Supreme Hero
Generation N
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posted August 27, 2008 12:15 AM |
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Nice thread Elvin
Sometimes a good startegies under your nose(in the tavern)
Yes now with mentoring we can train any hero for any task and shape it's skill with the help of Memory Mentor.
I'am thinking of using Runemage with Sylvan, Academy to fully utilizie easy access Preparation with those who has UnlimitedRetaliation, or Immunity to Fire (or MagneticGolems)so you can cast numerus Armaggedons, Fireballs
For me Ranger, Knight are universal heroes for good, mighty armies.
Any other merges, combinations just isn't so imroving IMO
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