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| Thread: New unit upgrade system for HoMM VI |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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Malgore
Adventuring Hero
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posted September 04, 2008 02:28 PM |
bonus applied by alcibiades on 09 Sep 2008. |
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New unit upgrade system for HoMM VI
Intro:
The suggested unit upgrade system is a step away from "traditional" Heroes 3 and Heroes 5 upgrade systems. The suggested approach concerns unit specialization and skills rather then simple boost of stats.
The system: thesis
All basic units have specific role which means that unit is already good enough. The unit key stats are fixed and rarely they will be changed by upgrade.
During upgrade unit usually is NOT simply boosting existing stats (such as damage and health usually). Instead player has a choice to add more special abilities to existing unit.
The illustration: How it works?
In order to illustrate the new upgrade system I'll use concept of Dungeon unit, Scout, as an example.
1. Basic Scout is a light close combat fighter. He has good stats but expensive to compare with other factions (similar to current Dungeon Scout). His basic ability Invisibility.
2. After building the Hideout (structure where Scouts are recruited) the player can choose to unfold one of three Paths:
- Path of Lethality, that provides Scout with poisonous attacks,
- Path of Deception, that provides Scout with attacks that slow down opponents,
- Path of Evasion, that provides Scout with ability to partially evade incoming ranged damage.
3. Player can unfold all three Paths (one at the turn) and get uber-Scout, or continue to build other buildings and concentrate on other units. Or one can just use basic units. Or one can maximize units of first tiers.
Anyway the player's choice for upgrading is dictated by game situation (lack of opponent units that are vulnerable to poison OR lack of opponent shooting units).
Any comments, critique or jokes? 
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Warmonger
Promising
Legendary Hero
fallen artist
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posted September 04, 2008 02:33 PM |
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Exactly! 
And no, this time it's not a joke.
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zamfir
Promising
Supreme Hero
Allez allez allez
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posted September 04, 2008 04:15 PM |
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Edited by zamfir at 16:18, 04 Sep 2008.
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I will repeat what I said before: this kind of changes are not a solution!
6 years passed since HoMM IV was launched in this cruel world, and the fans didn't learned from the past's mistakes.
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5 Times TV
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted September 04, 2008 05:31 PM |
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I think this idea has much potential, albeit also some pitfalls. Let me share my thoughts with you here.
First off, what you suggest is somewhat similar to a quadouble upgrade (4 possible levels), except you can chose the upgrade order yourself. I love the idea of so much customization in the game. That was part of the thought with my upgrade system also (example: My Heroes 6 Scout suggestion) - the difference being that I chose only to make to upgrade levels.
One problem with this model is that if you have too many upgrade levels, the über-upgraded creature will start becoming better than the higher tier units. As an example, the relative power between the units now is something like this:
Level 1 > Level 1 upgrade
Level 2 > Level 2 upgrade
Level 3 > etc.
What you risk doing is making it something like this:
Level 1 > Level 1 upgrade > Level 1 super-upgrade > level 1 über-upgrade
Level 2 > Level 2 upgrade > level 2 super-upgrade > etc.
Level 3 > etc.
This means, that suddenly, you may end up having a level 1 über-upgrade which is stronger than a level 2 or maybe even a level 3 basic unit!
That is not necessarily a problem - but something that needs to be taken into consideration. If upgrading the units - particularly second and third time - was sufficiently resource-heavy, this would invite to a form of gameplay where perhaps it was convenient to focus on one units - level 1 or 2, perhaps - at the expense of the other low-level units. This would be interesting, because it allows for a larger degree of adaption - maybe vs. one faction, your level 1 unit is a particularly good choice, whereas another would favor level 2 and a third level 3, etc. This means that tactical playing offers greater reward, making for a better game. Also, this would in reality get closer to Heroes 4 model, as you would need to choose one unit over the other - something which is already to some extent the case in Heroes 5 (who ever can afford to build Rakshasa?).
On the other hand, there might be a problem with numbers. Currently, Peasants easily come in swarms, which is not really a problem, because Peasants suck. But what if the über-peasant was powerful? Then it might suddenly cause exploitation problems if people specialized in optimizing peasant growth. Consider what one or two external dwellings could suddenly meen in such a case.
Essentially, I think the problem comes when power-difference between basic unit and fully upgraded unit becomes too large. The basic unit is pretty weak which necessitates a large growth, whereas the upgraded version is pretty powerful, which favors a low growth - and finding a fitting balance might be problematic.
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Asheera
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
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posted September 04, 2008 05:41 PM |
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I love this idea, it's great
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Daystar
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Back from the Dead
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posted September 04, 2008 06:45 PM |
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I like the idea, but I agree with Alc.
Perhaps if some buildings were universal, eg, a building that gives all creatures X advantage? Not sure how to phrase that.
It would also work with less levels, say 5 or 6
____________
How exactly is luck a skill?
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zazu1
Adventuring Hero
Makes Sense
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posted September 04, 2008 06:49 PM |
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This is a great idea, but I do agree with a lot of what alcibiades said. Enabling the player to manually upgrade is great idea and would definitely make the game even more strategic.
My suggesting would be instead of having to build a building for every upgrade, the stacks themselves would gain an average amount of experience after battles, and with enough experience, the player would be able to choose how to upgrade them. That way you wouldn't have to build more structures, and you wouldn't have to worry about being able to hire a more creatures of a low tier that are already better than the creature of the next tier. This is similar to my idea of having an uber upgrade only achievable from experience, but this way makes it even better.
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razor5
Famous Hero
Freezing...
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posted September 04, 2008 08:54 PM |
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The idea is intresting but I'm not sure if Nival and Ubi will add this features to HoMM 6...and here I agree easily with Zamfir (read the 3rd post here)
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GenieLord
Honorable
Legendary Hero
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posted September 04, 2008 11:14 PM |
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Sounds great. 
I'm only thinking how to get this balanced.
Perhaps a small penalty in the status for the super-upgrade and a bit larger one for the uber-upgrade can keep it balanced?
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Moonlith
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
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posted September 05, 2008 12:09 AM |
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The idea is interesting, but the Scout is a VERY easy example. My major concern lies with creatures with which you can not so easily think up various upgrade paths, which inevitably result in abominations and unrealistic options due to a lack of options that actually make sense.
How would you solve that?
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Daystar
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Back from the Dead
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posted September 05, 2008 12:27 AM |
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Perhaps only a few would have this? Say 2 or 3 per faction?
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How exactly is luck a skill?
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Malgore
Adventuring Hero
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posted September 05, 2008 01:59 PM |
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Edited by Malgore at 14:04, 05 Sep 2008.
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Wow, thanks to all for comments.
Quote:
One problem with this model is that if you have too many upgrade levels, the über-upgraded creature will start becoming better than the higher tier units. As an example, the relative power between the units now is something like this:
Level 1 > Level 1 upgrade
Level 2 > Level 2 upgrade
Level 3 > etc.
What you risk doing is making it something like this:
Level 1 > Level 1 upgrade > Level 1 super-upgrade > level 1 über-upgrade
Level 2 > Level 2 upgrade > level 2 super-upgrade > etc.
Level 3 > etc.
This means, that suddenly, you may end up having a level 1 über-upgrade which is stronger than a level 2 or maybe even a level 3 basic unit!
On the other hand, there might be a problem with numbers. Currently, Peasants easily come in swarms, which is not really a problem, because Peasants suck. But what if the über-peasant was powerful? Then it might suddenly cause exploitation problems if people specialized in optimizing peasant growth. Consider what one or two external dwellings could suddenly meen in such a case.
Essentially, I think the problem comes when power-difference between basic unit and fully upgraded unit becomes too large. The basic unit is pretty weak which necessitates a large growth, whereas the upgraded version is pretty powerful, which favors a low growth - and finding a fitting balance might be problematic.
Thanks!
Well, in general the solution for indicated problem has two aspects.
First is a special role that distinguishes the unit from others. The mentioned Scout follows Dark Elves credo "Strike from shadow". No other unit will perform that role.
At the very beginning he is well suited for performing his role - invisible melee fighter. The Paths/upgrades just help him to improve existing role (Instead of changing it completely as was done with Scout/Stalker upgrade in H5).
Second is a constant status of basic stats. Unit receives just abilities, not the simple boosts to health and damage. Thus the clear distinction between units is achieved.
Quote:
My suggesting would be instead of having to build a building for every upgrade, the stacks themselves would gain an average amount of experience after battles, and with enough experience, the player would be able to choose how to upgrade them. That way you wouldn't have to build more structures, and you wouldn't have to worry about being able to hire a more creatures of a low tier that are already better than the creature of the next tier. This is similar to my idea of having an uber upgrade only achievable from experience, but this way makes it even better.
Suggested concept moves away from individual unit experience simple because it will make it a Disciples-type of game. The hybrid of RPG and turn-based strategy.
As for buildings - in current concept player can build the structure AND unfold one path at the same turn. Player will think twice about making massive upgrades to all units - it is all costs gold.
Quote:
The idea is intresting but I'm not sure if Nival and Ubi will add this features to HoMM 6...and here I agree easily with Zamfir (read the 3rd post here)
Suggested concept doesn't change that general concept - it is still a game of heroic individuals and their armies. The only things added is a unit customization and clear role distinction.
Quote:
The idea is interesting, but the Scout is a VERY easy example. My major concern lies with creatures with which you can not so easily think up various upgrade paths, which inevitably result in abominations and unrealistic options due to a lack of options that actually make sense.
How would you solve that?
As for options - most of H5 upgraded units have more then three rules/abilities/characteristics. The suggested scheme enable clear distinction for these as well.
Ok, here I'll try to provide a few more samples. I'll continue with Dungeon.
Fury, second tier unit, fast melee fighter with distinctive ability to strike-and-return. She has good attacking stats, high speed and initiative, but quite fragile. Thus she has different role from Scout.
The upgrades/Paths for Fury are following:
1) Path of Rage - provides Fury with accumulative damage increase (10% each turn), if the Fury strikes the same unit again. Literally Fury will became more enraged each time she hits same target. Increase will vanish if Fury will choose to attack another unit.
2) Path of Swiftness - provides Fury with classic No Retaliation ability;
3) Path of Hatred - provides Fury with ability to deal +50% damage for spending her turn. Literally Fury will concentrate for one devastating attack. Good opportunity to intimidate the opponent - will he strike the closing Minotaurs or strike brooding Fury.
All these Paths are adding flavor to role of Fury (which is a fast hard-hitting unit). At the same time they don't make her superior to other units - she is still very fragile.
Minotaur, third/forth tier unit, primary tank fighter with distinctive high Morale attribute. His role is to be at the forefront, on the edge of combat where he protects his dark masters. Mino has good combat stats and health, but is quite slow comparing to Dark Elves. He supports the attack or simple plays tank role, rushing forward.
The upgrades/Paths for Mino are following:
1) Path of Vengeance - provides Mino with ability to increase damage after receiving damage from opponent units. The increase is proportional. Literally the harder you strike him, the harder will be his answer.
2) Path of Courage - provides Mino with ability to increase Morale of friendly surrounding units.
3) Path of Battle - provides Mino with classic Double-Strike ability.
Once again these Paths add more options to expand specific role of the unit. Mino can do well without these upgrades, but unfolding of these provides more strategic options - will you sacrifice Minos for shielding fragile Furies or focus on them and waste light Scouts instead?
I'll try to think out more samples, but these can illustrate the point well.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted September 05, 2008 02:37 PM |
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Quote:
Second is a constant status of basic stats. Unit receives just abilities, not the simple boosts to health and damage. Thus the clear distinction between units is achieved.
You certainly begin to have me convinced. The upgrades for Minotaur and Fury are both excellent!
I've quoted the above, because I don't think stagnant stats is a good idea - I think it'll make it a bit boring. However, an alternative solution that could work would be that each ability ties also to one - and only one - stat of the unit which is increased on the upgrade. The point would be that you wouldn't increase the same stat 2 or 3 times, but only once, thus avoiding overgrown stats on low-level units.
To take the Scout example from above:
Basic Scout: Basic stats.
- Path of Lethality, that provides Scout with poisonous attacks. Attack focus: +2 Attack
- Path of Deception, that provides Scout with attacks that slow down opponents. Tactics focus: +2 Initiative
- Path of Evasion, that provides Scout with ability to partially evade incoming ranged damage. Defence focus: +4 HP
The numbers here are somewhat arbitrary - and other units might increase other properties such as Defence, Shots, Mana, Intiative, or Speed.
Edit >
Thinking about it, one could actually generalize this, so that each units always had an upgrade belonging to each of these categories:
Attack Group: Ties with Attack and/or Damage.
Defence Group: Ties with Defence and/or Health.
Tactics Group: Ties with Speed and/or Initiative.
Whether Mana and Shots should tie up with these or have their own special categori for applicable creatures I don't know.
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zamfir
Promising
Supreme Hero
Allez allez allez
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posted September 05, 2008 04:00 PM |
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Initially I tought this will change the game verry much, and I repeat that this is madness. But after reading the following posts, it seems pretty interesting. Remeber however that interesting changes don't always make for good changes.
My idea is to implement your new upgrade system to only one faction, and to make it link with the racial skill.
This way, no major changes will be made.
____________
5 Times TV
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MarcusX
Known Hero
*happyface*
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posted September 07, 2008 01:13 PM |
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wow  at first I was like I really don't think that this is a good idea and then I finished reading and I really like it I would love to see more. and I agree that it would be cool to tie it into racial abilitys.
____________
I use big words to make myself
smarter
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Jiriki9
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Altar Dweller
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posted September 07, 2008 01:33 PM |
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I don't think this ide - which is, in my opinion, rather good - should be tied to a racial skill - that would be kinda strange and confusing, having a seperate upgrade system for one faction...
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razor5
Famous Hero
Freezing...
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posted September 08, 2008 11:33 AM |
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Sorry here for the Offtopic
Here I have another upgrading system,not like Malgore's and I have a question: ( for Moderators )
I need to post it here,or open a new thread ?
I ask this question because I don't want to open a new thread,and then someone or the moderators say it is already a Upgrading-System Thread
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted September 08, 2008 11:40 AM |
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This is a spectacular and interesting idea. Always wondered about a building or something that if units stayed in it (in their home town) they would get stronger-etc. Something like a training grounds, but for all towns, and not going to the next teir ... just gaining stats and/or abilities.
____________
Message received.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted September 09, 2008 06:28 AM |
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Quote:
Sorry here for the Offtopic
Here I have another upgrading system,not like Malgore's and I have a question: ( for Moderators )
I need to post it here,or open a new thread ?
I ask this question because I don't want to open a new thread,and then someone or the moderators say it is already a Upgrading-System Thread
If what you want to say can be posted in 2 (or 5, or 10) lines, and doesn't really open up for a general discussion, I'd say you should post it here. If you want to post a lot and expect it to start a general discussion which relates only to your subject and not to what's in this thread overall, then make it in another topic.
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Malgore
Adventuring Hero
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posted September 09, 2008 10:02 AM |
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Edited by Malgore at 10:07, 09 Sep 2008.
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Quote:
I've quoted the above, because I don't think stagnant stats is a good idea - I think it'll make it a bit boring. However, an alternative solution that could work would be that each ability ties also to one - and only one - stat of the unit which is increased on the upgrade. The point would be that you wouldn't increase the same stat 2 or 3 times, but only once, thus avoiding overgrown stats on low-level units.
To take the Scout example from above:
Basic Scout: Basic stats.
- Path of Lethality, that provides Scout with poisonous attacks. Attack focus: +2 Attack
- Path of Deception, that provides Scout with attacks that slow down opponents. Tactics focus: +2 Initiative
- Path of Evasion, that provides Scout with ability to partially evade incoming ranged damage. Defence focus: +4 HP
The numbers here are somewhat arbitrary - and other units might increase other properties such as Defence, Shots, Mana, Intiative, or Speed.
Edit >
Thinking about it, one could actually generalize this, so that each units always had an upgrade belonging to each of these categories:
Attack Group: Ties with Attack and/or Damage.
Defence Group: Ties with Defence and/or Health.
Tactics Group: Ties with Speed and/or Initiative.
Whether Mana and Shots should tie up with these or have their own special categori for applicable creatures I don't know.
Thanks for extensive comment alci!
Yes, I thought about grouping upgrades at first. In general I came up with two categories: Might (attack, defense, damage, shots) and Magic (spellpower and knowledge). But then I realized that this will add more restrictions for adding various abilities. The positive side of streamlining the rules turns negative when one wants to have an unique army (or the army with some distinctive flavor and tactics).
Nevertheless you idea of providing tiny bonuses to existing stats is great! It makes upgrade/Path even more viable for purchase!
Quote:
wow at first I was like I really don't think that this is a good idea and then I finished reading and I really like it I would love to see more. and I agree that it would be cool to tie it into racial abilitys.
Quote:
This is a spectacular and interesting idea. Always wondered about a building or something that if units stayed in it (in their home town) they would get stronger-etc. Something like a training grounds, but for all towns, and not going to the next teir ... just gaining stats and/or abilities.
I was thinking lately on the Dungeon units lineup, and that's what I came up with. Note, that suggested unit upgrades were mainly dictated by character of the army. In my view Dungeon army is an aggressive harassing and intimidating force - the force which is pretty fragile though. All abilities are passive if not stated otherwise.
Scout - light melee fighter. Default activated ability is Invisibility (similar to current).
- Path of Lethality: adds classic Poison damage to Scout's attacks, +2 ATT
- Path of Deception: targeted unit slows down for -10% Init; +2 Init
- Path of Evasion: -20% to incoming ranged damage, +2 DEF
Fury - fast melee fighter. Default ability is Strike-and-Return (similar to current).
- Path of Rage: +10% bonus to damage if Fury strikes the same unit. Bonus accumulates; +3 ATT
- Path of Swiftness: classic No Retaliation ability; +3 Init
- Path of Hatred: activated ability to deal +50% damage at the cost of skipping turn; +1 to max Damage
Stalker - support shooter. Default ability is Corrosive attack - decreases Defense making unit more vulnerable to incoming assault.
- Path of Silence: 50% chance that targeted unit will miss it's turn and goes back on ATB; +3 ATT
- Path of Reckoning: Stalker strikes back with 50% damage after receiving ranged damage; +5 Shots
- Path of ?:
Stalker is an incomplete concept for new unit, since Scout gone melee only. Stalkers are vicious hunters that prefer to strike from afar "softening" enemy. Otherwise mediocre shooting unit.
Minotaur - primary melee fighter. Default ability is +1 Morale attribute.
- Path of Vengeance: increase damage after receiving damage from opponent units; +2 to min damage
- Path of Courage: +1 Morale for all friendly nearby units; +1 DEF
- Path of Battle: classic Double-Strike ability; +2 ATT
Hydra - "heavy" support melee fighter. Default ability is Multiple Attack (similar to current).
- Path of Cold Blood: classic Regeneration; +10 HP
- Path of Dark Blood: attacker takes 25% damage; +2 DEF
- Path of Tainted Blood: classic No Retaliation; +2 ATT
Matriarch - primary shooter and support caster. Default abilities presented by support spells.
- Path of Domination: activated ability to weaken Spellpower of targeted caster; +2 SPELL (Very characteristic ability, fits for visual "you were a bad boy" image)
- Path of Shadow: more support spells; +1 KNOW
- Path of Devastation: targeted unit received doubled damage from Elemental damage (this ability supports racial skill); +1 to min Damage
Black Dragon - large flying killing machine. Default ability is Magic Invulnerability (similar to current).
- Path of Eternal Darkness: ?
- Path of Eternal Revenge: +50% damage against non-Black Dragons, +5 to max damage
- Path of Eternal Fire: classic Ignite, +5 ATT
Well, that's it with Dungeon...
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